Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Kain wrote:Bastion? Bah, pansies, go the manly route and use the fortress of Redemption/Tomb Citadel.

Fortress sure, I want one at some point for Tau / Sisters / Adeptus Orthodontus / GK Monkey Army / things with GK Monkey Allies.

The Tomb Citadel, while nice (and super crazy wtfery for crons), is a 2x2 table sections, and will cost you around £150 to set up 'properly'....

At the end of the day though, every Fortification has its pros and cons, and apply to different situations - even the new Wall of Martyrs stuff will too.

Aegis Defence Line:
Pros:
Cheap (50pts base)
It's good for gunlines, giving lots of garunteed cover at deployment, where you want it and bringing some nice toys (Lascannon or Quadgun) or a Comms Relay,
Cons:
Cover can be negated (and moreso than ever these days), only works from one direction, or a significant portion of the line must be used to provide defence from the rear.

Skyshield:
Pros:
Good for Deepstrikers (no scatter when landing on) and makes a decent firepoint, (provides 4+*)
Cons:
Models on it are still vunerable to shooting and assaults. Can't use the no-scatter and invun save effects at the same time ( must choose each turn)

Bastion:
Pros:
AV14 bunker, good firepoint for 1-3 infantry units, blocks LoS to models inside, and behind (good for deployment shenanigans)
Cons:
Immobile vehicle. Vunerable to anti-tank weapons, which can in turn hurt models inside (though nullifies AP).

Fortress of Redemption:
Pros:
Massive quad AV14 bunker + tower, includes some nasty weapons, and makes a good firepoint, and large los blocking for deployment. can contain up to 6+ units
Cons:
It is a LARGE model, taking up a good portion of your deployment zone, with a high points cost (220pts base - almost 300pts kitted out) plus the same negatives as Bastion.

Tomb Citadel: (Based on what I've been told by a cron player)
Pros:
HUGE fortification (2x2 board), consisting of:
AV14 Ziggurat that can 'dock' 1 Monolith or Pylon, which gain +1Str to all weapons. Has a Scarab Hive and Eternity Gate.
AV14 Power Crucible provides every necron model on the 2x2 section with a 3+* against shooting, and reroll 1's on failed Ressurection Protocol rolls.
May take 0-2 weapon turrets (Gauss Exterminators or Tesla Destructors, both with Interceptor + Skyfire), and can take a Comm Relay.
Enemies Deepstriking onto it mishap on any rolls of a double when scattering.
Cons:
Ridiculously sized piece (2 foot by 2 foot - what were forgeworld thinking!)
Massive points cost (300base, 500-600+ kitted out, potentially up to 1000pts with a docked unit.).
Special rules can be negated by damage rolls of a 5+ against the relevant building.
Moving onto and off of is Difficult Terrain.

The pros and cons of the Wall of Martyrs subsections remain to be seen.

I can't imagine anyone actually fielding the Tomb Citadel and being serious outside of Apocalypse.

 Enigwolf wrote:
I can't imagine anyone actually fielding the Tomb Citadel and being serious outside of Apocalypse.

My friend is building one. -_-

 Ovion wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
I can't imagine anyone actually fielding the Tomb Citadel and being serious outside of Apocalypse.

My friend is building one. -_-

Building one, sure, is he intending to field one?

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Ovion wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
I can't imagine anyone actually fielding the Tomb Citadel and being serious outside of Apocalypse.

My friend is building one. -_-

Building one, sure, is he intending to field one?

He wouldn't take the time to scratchbuild it if he didn't intend to field it.
Possibly mostly for his home table, but I can see him being crazy enough to take it somewhere.

 Enigwolf wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Stepping back, I'm happy that the Bastion is finally being discussed and not outright dismissed.

I see value in it for the right army, but unlike the ADL, I don't think its something that can just be tossed into a list.

I do agree with you. Not every army needs or should have a Bastion, but it's definitely fitting in some armies that would benefit well from it. I'm currently thinking single-squads of high-value, heavy damage-outputting squads that would normally attract a fethstorm of fire, i.e. the one Broadside squad in a Tau allies list.

Agreed here as well, I would never dream of taking the Bastion in my Eldar army (least of all because I would have to build an Eldar one, it wouldn't sit right in my mind to use the Imperial one with anything but the Imperium) it's just not as good an option. In my GK army, however, it fills my playstyle quite nicely.

 sudojoe wrote:
Given the amount of cover save stripping powers, having completely blocked LOS is often more important and just a good cover save. I've used this to be as far forward as possible in my deployment zone as FMC daemons before just so I can guarantee that I can start on the board and have nothing being able to target me as I'll be deploying them quite far forward as possible. Hiding the portaglyph is also very useful in this scenario. It's like taking fateweaver. It takes some of the random out of chaos daemons and that makes them more consistently good.

P93 last paragraph- you can just leave the building as a nice LOS blocker that's essentially invulnerable as it cannot be attacked so it can't be targeted at all (though you can still scatter into it)

I'm a big fan of the Bastion as well. The local tournaments I sometimes play at are inconsistent with terrain. Some tables are packed, others might have a couple of trees. I primarily play a Tzeentch Flying Circus Daemon list, and having the LOS blocking terrain to start behind is a huge help. Also, I usually put the Grimoire of True Names on a Herald and stick him in the Bastion with a big squad of pink horrors. He died to0 fast behind an ADL, or was just too vulnerable to Ignore Cover. And even if the bastion is destroyed, I've never had the Herald die to the wounds caused by the collapse / explosion, and the bastion stays on the board as impassable terrain, so it's still of use after they blow it up.

 sudojoe wrote:
Each firing point allows 2 models to shoot through -p 93. You can have a squad of 4 devestators all shooting their weapons through even sides with just 2 firing points and can have the sergeant shooting the emplaced heavy bolter.

The horrors only need one model to manifest the psychic power to get all shots possible. So for me, I only need one fire point to enable the herald and the Horror squad to make full use of their shooting. I also generally put an Icarus Lascannon on the roof and man it with BS5 Bloodletters, although I'm considering putting Shrouded Plaugebearers up there, as I can hit them with Prescience from the Herald during turn 1 when nothing is in range of Tzeentch shooting powers.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Enigwolf wrote:
Since result 7 is not "7+", rolling a 6 will void that roll (6+2=8, there is no 8 on the table RAW).

So you're saying that if you shoot an AP1 weapon at an open-topped vehicle, roll a penetrating hit and then on the damage chart roll a 6, which would be +3 (from AP and OT) totaling 9, that would be a voided result?

 ashikenshin wrote:
I'm going to give it a try in a 1500 pt list with ig/gk this weekend. Gonna put the css on top to man the quad gun and stick a infantry squad inside to man the guns/shoot their autocannon

I'm looking forward to hearing how it performs.

My first instinct is that a Guardsmen are too fragile to survive many of the D6 collapse results without taking significant losses.

 minigun762 wrote:

 ashikenshin wrote:
I'm going to give it a try in a 1500 pt list with ig/gk this weekend. Gonna put the css on top to man the quad gun and stick a infantry squad inside to man the guns/shoot their autocannon

I'm looking forward to hearing how it performs.

My first instinct is that a Guardsmen are too fragile to survive many of the D6 collapse results without taking significant losses.

Ditto here. I think Broadsides are the most perfect for sticking in a Bastion. T4, 2 wounds each (and being inside a building, you can do wound-allocation shenanigans with them) with 2+ armor save and either range 36" or 60" primary weapons. Makes them virtually impossible to dislodge unless you shoot enough at it.

 undertow wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
Since result 7 is not "7+", rolling a 6 will void that roll (6+2=8, there is no 8 on the table RAW).

So you're saying that if you shoot an AP1 weapon at an open-topped vehicle, roll a penetrating hit and then on the damage chart roll a 6, which would be +3 (from AP and OT) totaling 9, that would be a voided result?

If he is, he's wrong.

You can't wreak an aegis defence line .

Ok, I played 4 games with the bastion and here is my experience with it.

I won 3 out of the 4 games and in only one game one guy attempted to assault it. The rest they ignored the bastion to their own peril. The bastion made the quad gun on top had a clear view of most of the battlefield and we had a densely packed terrain table.

The first game was against orks, I was using 1500 points of tau and ig allies to bring a vendetta. My list wasn't that great but the bastion made sure my ccs and a squad of veterans inside lasted the whole game. A squad of koptas tried to assault it but the veteran squad inside obliterated them before they could.

Second game I was using chaos space marines vs necrons, I almost tabled the guy but I got cocky and didn't score an objective, he was standing in one with his only troop and the game ended on turn 4, he won by one point :( the bastion alone killed most of his troops and a unit of necron bikes.

Third game same chaos list against tau, totally destroyed him without him having a chance to shoot once at the bastion. The quad gun managed to destroy his flyer the turn it came in.

Fourth game same chaos list against tyranid, bastion killed a unit of gaunts and put 3 wounds on his guard, my daemon prince and helldrake killed the rest.

Overall I'm really happy with the bastion with the lists I made for it. In 1000 points it just gave me a huge advantage, in 1500 the advantage wasn't that great but still it kept my units inside safe for the whole game. I think it behaved like a better version of a predator with av14, really cool.

Good report!
Do you think you're opponents will be more prepared for it next time?

i see 3 issues with it:

1) Base size. Often it might be hard to place it without making it hug a board edge.
2) Top level size. I play either hordy orks or big based tau. Neither can fit up there lol. Crisis suits should never be up there, kroot are suppose to be infiltrating to clog up the midzone, and riptide/broadsides are too big. Yea firewarriors can go up there...but then theres #3 issue..
3) IT GO BOOM! Face it, AV14 is pretty damn easy to take out when its one HP and pretty much anything you do to it is catastrophic to those on top...aside from chipping off the paint of course because you failed the pen roll.

The ADL may not have the benefit of elevation or the benefit of being impossible to charge unless using jump/jet packs, but it doesnt go boom. A single high strength shot can lay waste to not only your ~130 or whatever it is building, but the 100-300pts of dudes on top since they basically just go away...be surprised if any of them survived let alone enough to be a threat.

I wanted to use it, because its elevated sight removes my loota line of sight issues on most terrains and without a S9-10 table-long shot, its not that likely to explode or crumble the first couple of turns. However, i cant fit a group of 8-10 lootas up there unless i dont have the gun.....and even if i DO put them up there suddenly "A Wild Pi Plate Has Appeared! It Ignores Cover!" even without the ignores cover, it is devastating.

With the sky shield meaning no scatter for deep striking units, is that both sides? i.e. could my enemy deep strike his termies or drop pod on it without a scatter?

Sticking things like 2 Broadsides with an Ignore Cover naked Commander in a Bastion is great fun and a good way to make a solid firebase. If anything, it sucks up a disgusting amount of incoming fire.

Also, putting Telion with the Icarus Lascannon in top is usually hysterical. Admittedly, you can do this with an ADL as well.

 minigun762 wrote:
Good report!
Do you think you're opponents will be more prepared for it next time?

Yeah, they are going to include something else to deal with av14. In our group there is only one guy with a land raider and two guys with a monolith. The monoliths have seen a lot more games than the land raider so everyone just ignores them. Anti tank here is just meant for transports and av 12-. I will try to bring it to more games to see if it's performance wasn't just luck. It will be harder now that they know how to deal with it.

You can't put a commander in a bastion he's jet pack

 ashikenshin wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Good report!
Do you think you're opponents will be more prepared for it next time?

Yeah, they are going to include something else to deal with av14. In our group there is only one guy with a land raider and two guys with a monolith. The monoliths have seen a lot more games than the land raider so everyone just ignores them. Anti tank here is just meant for transports and av 12-. I will try to bring it to more games to see if it's performance wasn't just luck. It will be harder now that they know how to deal with it.

Glad to hear you're preparing for their changing game plans.

Keep reporting back if you can, letting us know how the meta is changing for you.

3) IT GO BOOM! Face it, AV14 is pretty damn easy to take out when its one HP and pretty much anything you do to it is catastrophic to those on top...aside from chipping off the paint of course because you failed the pen roll.

Actually a bastion has no hullpoints and it's actually somewhat rare to get it to go boom from many games I've played with it as long as your list is actually built to make use of it. (I.e. sure, waste your shots shooting the thing but those shots are then not going into my more expensive vehicles like my artillery that is parked behind it. To get into melta range, I'll be able to retialiate with quite a lot of fire power.

Unlike a land raider, you can't glance this thing to death. Heck, even if it's too damaged to be occupied, I can still use it to block LOS which is worth quite a lot of the points I paid for it.

Yeah, that's kinda what happened in my games. They wasted a unit going after it while my daemon prince, predator, helldrake and juggylord destroyed everything else, the following games not a shot was fired to my bastion.

I've had good results so far with my Bastion. It usually isn't destroyed, and even when it is, I've never had the unit inside (or on top) get wiped out as a result. I deploy it with the door facing away from my enemy, so when the Pink Horrors I place inside have to disembark, they're still out of LOS.

I can't imagine using a bastion. In the rare event there is a building of any sort on the table people avoid it like the plague, because they are all deathtraps against anyone with grenades (most people) or flamer template attacks (many people). Much of the time you're better off standing in the open.

From the posts here it sounds like you guys take the bastion and have the opponent spend a lot of time shooting at it... I would be surprised to see many people make that mistake in a competitive event.

Daeghrefn wrote:
I can't imagine using a bastion. In the rare event there is a building of any sort on the table people avoid it like the plague, because they are all deathtraps against anyone with grenades (most people) or flamer template attacks (many people). Much of the time you're better off standing in the open.

From the posts here it sounds like you guys take the bastion and have the opponent spend a lot of time shooting at it... I would be surprised to see many people make that mistake in a competitive event.

If you place it in your deployment zone, why are you letting folks with grenades and flamers get to it?

Daeghrefn wrote:
I can't imagine using a bastion. In the rare event there is a building of any sort on the table people avoid it like the plague, because they are all deathtraps against anyone with grenades (most people) or flamer template attacks (many people). Much of the time you're better off standing in the open.

From the posts here it sounds like you guys take the bastion and have the opponent spend a lot of time shooting at it... I would be surprised to see many people make that mistake in a competitive event.

In my case (I run a Tzeentch Daemon Flying Circus), I have a Herald with a Grimoire sitting in the bastion, along with a large squad of Pink Horrors. Anything that gets close to it gets sprayed with a ton of S6, twin-linked (prescience) shooting.

If they're not shooting the Bastion, I'm ok with that since it means my Grimoire is safe.

If they're shooting the Bastion that's also ok, since it means they're not shooting at my FMCs.

Either way, it's been a solid addition to my lists. When I put the Grimoire bearing unit behind an ADL or in terrain they tend to get wiped out in assault or by Ignore Cover weapons. If I put the Grimoire on a Daemon Prince I wind up having to play that one more conservatively than I like so he doesn't die and I can't project as much force into my opponent's deployment zone.

I think in a list with high threat saturation as it is, the Bastion makes another excellent addition for cheap points cost with the capability to make glass cannon units very durable.

In the given examples we've seen so far, anti-tank weapons are forced to either shoot the Bastion or tough (F)MCs, or used as a distraction/LOS blocker for artillery. With a glass cannon unit inside, it forces your opponent to either deal with it and be distracted from the rest of your army, or ignore it and take deadly amounts of firepower each turn.

Again, with me putting Broadsides inside, I laugh at attempts to flame or grenade them out.

 cowmonaut wrote:

 sudojoe wrote:
P95 - you can actually have a ladder or the like on the side of the building. It will allow access to the roof without going through the inside (fist column 5th paragraph down)

The Imperial Bastion model does not come with an external Ladder. Adding one would be modeling for advantage and is against the rules. So no, you aren't "saved" by anything on Page 95.

 sudojoe wrote:
P 116 - there's actually 3 firing points possible on 2 of the sides and 1 to 0 based on where you place the door. It's 2 on the mid level and one on the bottom level that may or may not be covered by the door. There are no exact standards on which facing the door must be on. You can have one side with 3 firing points anyway even if you put the door exactly as pictured on page 116.

RAW, an Access Point is not a Fire Point. So you cannot "shoot through the door". You are misunderstanding the rules.

Heck, from a fluff perspective it wouldn't make sense to do so since the door of a bunker/bastion is supposed to be secured during combat. Can't do that if you left it open to fire out of.

 sudojoe wrote:
p18 - most places tend to agree that a vehicle that is 25% obscured will get 3+ cover from this purpose built fortified building.

Just a clarification here. An Imperial Bastion is a Medium Building according to its data sheet (meaning it can "transport" 20 models). There is no such thing as a "fortified building". Most people I know agree that it counts as a "Fortification" for Cover purposes even though the ADL itself does not. Since its supposed to be a purpose built bunker, like the Fortress of Redemption. Not everyone agrees with this however, so do not just assume your opponent things the same as you!

Modelling for advantage is against the rules? In what way, can you give me a page number in the BRB? I can see when that is a problem in the case of base sizes, for example, but I can't find any rules stopping you from adding a ladder to a bastion. In the case of bastions, the access points and firepoints are "as model", and the kit actually comes with 2 available access points to attach to the model (main door and the escape hatch, which you could feasibly attach instead of or as well as the main door). The escape hatch would leave you with an extra firepoint if you used that instead of the other door, and is included in the kit. Is that modelling for advantage? It seems to me that the wording of bastions allows you to modify them a bit, otherwise they would have stated "1 access point, and 1 fire point on each facing" for example.

The ADL doesn't cause d6 S10 (per model) hits when it "Detonantes" It's like wrapping your squishy models in a bomb with a target on it.
DrG

 Enigwolf wrote:
I can't imagine anyone actually fielding the Tomb Citadel and being serious outside of Apocalypse.

It is a tile for the realms of battle board.

 doktor_g wrote:
The ADL doesn't cause d6 S10 (per model) hits when it "Detonantes"

Neither does the Bastion.