Relapse wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
@ Relapse: just to be clear, you just advocated for a 50%-1 rate of wrongful execution in order to prevent a 1% recidivism rate.


That's weird.

Yes, I realized I had totaly mispoken myself on that after I left for some errands. What I mean to say is that if the amount of executions of innocent people is less than the recidivsm rate, then we should continue with the death penalty. I had quite an in depth discussion about this with d-usa last night that gave me food for thought on the matter.
There are ways around the recidivsm, the most obvious being not to so quickly be releasing convicted murderers as currently happens.

Monster Rain wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
Feel free to define it more accurately in two words or less.

Why?

 d-usa wrote:
I did numbers first in this thread! I want recognition!

 azazel the cat wrote:
I fear that due to the nature of your position; "I support the death penalty only when they're guilty, but I'm not too worried about the standard for determining that guilt", we cannot have a reasonable debate as you have taken several pages to definitively prove that you bring nothing to the table on this matter other than empty rhetoric and platitudes, seasoned with just a dash of playing the victim.


Have a good day, Dreadclaw. Perhaps we shall discuss a different topic another time.

 Jihadin wrote:
Wasn't there recently some nutjob in Finland or something that killed a bunch of kids?

 Jihadin wrote:
Wasn't there recently some nutjob in Finland or something that killed a bunch of kids?

 Jihadin wrote:
So are you fine with that Crimson? 21 years incarceration with five years extension?

I also think that a life sentence without a possibility of parole is wrong. No judge can know what a person that commits a crime today will be like after a decade or two, even much longer time. And a possibility for parole do not mean that you have to let some incurable mass-murderers out eventually; possibility of parole contains the possibility that the parole board decides not to grant the parole. On the other hand (some) people can change. There is no point holding someone imprisoned indefinitely, if there is no reason to believe that they would any more be a danger to others. And a possibility of some day getting out might make the prisoners take the rehabilitation more seriously.

He got 21 years and top of that the sentence can be extended indefinitely, five years at time (so kinda reverse parole.) It is unlikely that he'll ever be released.

 Jihadin wrote:

Something not jiving here

edit
Perhaps a bit more clarification

 Jihadin wrote:

Something not jiving here

 Grey Templar wrote:

With the near universal use of DNA evidence collecting and other advanced forensics, the probability of false convictions on something so major is dwindling.

The window of time the defense has to prove otherwise should change to reflect that.

sebster wrote:I've never been able to understand this idea that if a society doesn't have the death penalty, then some portion of those murderers will kill again when released... because you can abolish the death penalty and still not let people out. You just put them in supermax and never let them out. Remember Martin Bryant, who shot all those people in Port Arthur here in Australia years ago? Well we don't have the death penalty so we just locked him up and we're never going to let him out.

At which point it doesn't make sense to look at the rate of murder for people who were released again, what you then need to look at it is the number of people who escaped supermax and similar facilities and went on the kill (which I haven't found a single case of). And then you compare that number to the number of people falsely convicted and put on death row (which is 142 people that we know about). And then, given that 142 is larger than 0, you have to conclude that preventing the death of innocent people isn't a good reason for the death penalty.

And ultimately, there's similar problems with just about every argument for the death penalty. The money saving one is a nonsense, because even if you ignore the issue about death penalty appeals costing more than supermax prison time, the fact is either way we're talking about the total expense to the nation being in the tens of millions, in an economy measured in the trillions. It's a rounding error in the books. Unless you worry and talk often about every instance of a wasted $50 million in the country, then odds are you don't really want the death penalty out of a concern for next year's budget deficit.

What's funny though, is that even though all those arguments collapse quite quickly, people keep on believing them and repeating them, and even continuing to repeat them once you explain why they don't really work. It's because reason and logic has nothing to do with the death penalty, people want it because they want to inflict the great possible punishment on people who did something horrible. It's an instinctive, primal urge. And that's okay. To be honest, I don't really have a problem with that instinct. I don't agree, personally, and wouldn't vote for the death penalty if given the choice, but I don't think its unreasonable that someone else feels it.

I just wish the death penalty people would be more honest. Stop with the pretend rationality. Just go straight for the raw, base emotion - they did something abominable, and youI want them to die.

It's the same reason I get so annoyed with these bs efforts to put new science into killing people. All these efforts to take the blood out of it with electricity, or gas or poison injection. As if the clean nature of it made it anything other than inflicting lethal violence on another person. Put the killer on a massive mound of explosives, light a match and run like hell, blow pieces of him for miles in every direction. If you want violent catharsis, then fething do it properly.

 Rented Tritium wrote:
Execution costs more than life in prison. I'm really tired of having to explain this in every single thread this comes up in.

Plus, if money is your justification for life vs death, I think you're a monster.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Rented Tritium wrote:
Execution costs more than life in prison. I'm really tired of having to explain this in every single thread this comes up in.

Plus, if money is your justification for life vs death, I think you're a monster.

It doesn't need to cost more.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting/Ammunition/Rifle-Ammunition%7C/pc/104792580/c/104691780/sc/104532480/American-Eagle174-Rifle-Ammunition/734598.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Frifle-ammunition%2F_%2FN-1100190%2B4294759021%2FNe-4294759021%3FWTz_l%3DSBC%253BBRprd735146%26WTz_st%3DGuidedNav%26WTz_stype%3DGNU&WTz_l=SBC%3BBRprd735146%3Bcat104532480

Cabela's doesn't have the best prices, but 50 cents versus hundreds of thousands of dollars is a bargain.

Muhammad Saad al-Beshi beheads up to seven people a day. "It doesn't matter to me: Two, four, 10 - as long as I'm doing God's will, it doesn't matter how many people I execute," says Saudi Arabia's leading executioner. Al-Beshi began his career at a prison in Taif, where his job was to handcuff and blindfold the prisoners before their execution. "Because of this background, I developed a desire to be an executioner," he says. When a position became vacant, he applied and was accepted immediately.
His first job was in 1998 in Jeddah. "The criminal was tied and blindfolded. With one stroke of the sword I severed his head. It rolled metres away." Of course he was nervous, he says - there were a lot of people watching, after all - but now stage fright is a thing of the past. He says he is calm at work because he is doing God's work. "But there are many people who faint when they witness an execution. I don't know why they come and watch if they don't have the stomach for it. Me? I sleep very well."

Does he think people are afraid of him? "In this country we have a society that understands God's law," he says. "No one is afraid of me. I have a lot of relatives, and many friends at the mosque, and I live a normal life like everyone else. There are no drawbacks for my social life."

Before an execution, none the less, he will visit the family of the victim of the criminal to obtain forgiveness for the man about to die. "I always have that hope, until the very last minute, and I pray to God to give the criminal a new lease of life. I always keep that hope alive."

Al-Beshi will not reveal how much he gets paid per execution, as this is a confidential agreement with the government. But he insists that the reward is not important. "I am very proud to do God's work," he says.

However, he does reveal that a sword costs something in the region of 20,000 Saudi riyals (£3,300). "It's a gift from the government. I look after it and sharpen it once in a while, and I make sure to clean it of bloodstains. It's very sharp. People are amazed how fast it can separate the head from the body."

By the time the victims reach the execution square, they have surrendered themselves to death, he says, though they may hope to be forgiven at the last minute. Indeed, the only conversation that takes place is when he tells the prisoner to say the Shahada, their covenant with Allah. "Their hearts and minds are taken up with reciting the Shahada. When they get to the execution square, their strength drains away. Then I read the execution order, and at a signal I cut the prisoner's head off."

He has executed a number of women without hesitation. "Despite the fact that I hate violence against women, when it comes to God's will, I have to carry it out."

There is no great difference between the execution of men and women, except that the women wear hijab, and no one is allowed near them except Al-Beshi when the time for execution comes. When executing women, he has a choice of weapon. "It depends what they ask me to use. Sometimes they ask me to use a sword and sometimes a gun. But most of the time I use the sword," he says.

As an experienced executioner, 42-year-old Al-Beshi is entrusted with the task of training the young. "I successfully trained my son Musaed, 22, as an executioner and he was approved and chosen," he says proudly. Training focuses on the way to hold the sword and where to hit, and consists mostly of the trainee observing the executioner at work.

But an executioner's work is not all killing; sometimes it can simply be an amputation. "I use a special sharp knife instead of a sword," he explains. "When I cut off a hand, I cut it from the joint. If it is a leg, the authorities specify where it is to be taken off, so I follow that."

Al-Beshi describes himself as a family man. He was married when he became an executioner, and his wife did not object to his choice of profession. "She only asked me to think carefully before committing myself," he recalls. "But I don't think she's afraid of me. I deal with my family with kindness and love. They aren't afraid when I come back from an execution. Sometimes they help me clean my sword."

A father of seven, he is a grandfather already. "My daughter has a son called Haza, and he's my pride and joy," he says. "Then there are my sons. The oldest one is Saad, and of course there is Musaed, who will be the next executioner."

Cool, another bloodthirsty savage who doesn't understand the actual issue

Reprinted with permission from Arab News.

 Jihadin wrote:
Crimson. So when was the last time we executed someone by beheading? Where it was God's Will? Are you trolling young man?

Jihadin wrote:Yet you never seen one up close have you? I've seen a beheading of a thief in Afghanistan. Talk about pure freaking terror in that guys eyes. Two to hold his arms out, one sat on his ankle, and one pulled his hair straight out.. Executioner bolo's the strike. Guy still alive but now the carotid just pumping blood....Executioner took a second swing and removed the top of the guy head off at the eyebrows. It was a bad execution. The condemn was not even drugged

Lethal injection since you brought up poison

At the warden's signal, the execution chamber is exposed to witnesses in an adjoining room, and in states that use the three-drug protocol the inmate is injected with sodium thiopental or pentobarbital, anesthetics intended to put the inmate to sleep. Presumably after a member of the intravenous team determines the inmate is sufficiently unconscious, he is then injected with pancuronium bromide, which paralyzes the entire muscle system and stops the inmate's breathing. In most cases, the inmate's consciousness is again checked, and finally potassium chloride stops his heart. In ideal circumstances, death results from anesthetic overdose and respiratory and cardiac arrest while the condemned person is unconscious.

The process of lethal injection using just one drug follows nearly the same procedure, except the inmate dies from the one large dose of anesthetic, either sodium thiopental or pentobarbital.

Crimson. You really haven't explored the world as much have you besides what you see in the news and newspaper I take it? Bad part of this is you tackling on us in the US who know more about our laws and other type of laws in other countries. Right now here's a gut check dilemma as an example. Some judge is getting ready to release a serial rapist. Individual brutally raped over 40 females in the LA area of California. He did his time and now to be release. He has no remorse. There's also another lawsuit in progress for eight patients in Mass Psych hospital that are suing for their release since they were committed to a Psych Hospital towards the end of their sentence from a clause in the law the Governor used. They are about to wind for false imprisonment. These eight individuals are child rapists and molesters of the worse kind. They choose to take the needle for their meds while in carceration. They are required to register with the Sex Offender Register and keep up with their treatment. Problem is. No ankle Bracelet trackers. US Law for you

You know whats really a jacked up move that prosecution did chucklehead that shot up the kids. 21 years incarceration and possible parole...five years later...possible parole...then five years later...possible parole. That individual going to get mind "F'ed"

 Jihadin wrote:
I wasn't horrified there Crimson. We laughed our arse off.

You entirely do not like execution regardless of country. You do though is putting a serious vibe off as "disliking the USA regardless of what we do.

I'm pretty sure I executed a few insurgents who fired at us the very first time they became a combatant but we cold care less. Do onto others as they do on to you.

There are some people who do deserve to die. The Boston Bomber being one. Heck we just executed ALQ 2nd in Command with a drone strike recently, Hoping Hasan gets the Death penalty....he's the Army medical doctor that executed his fellow soldiers to prevent them from going over seas to kill insurgents....that SSG who killed like 23 Afghan civilians recently but pleaded guilty to all to avoid the death sentence. Manny needs to strung up for his version of meta data dump on Wikileak.....possibility he put fellow soldiers in more danger is high

Are you for or against killing ALQ, Taliban or Insurgents....or any other of the radical branches of Islam that's fighting around the world against the US? ISAF?

I'm glad that a gruesome death of a human being amused you. I'm sure that it was a great consolation to his family that their loved one could bring joy to others at the last moments of his life.