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I have a friend who plays Tyranids, and he frequently complains that (In 6th edition,) the Tyranid codex is awful.
His main points are...
No AA of S7+ whatsoever.
Genestealers are practically worthless with nerfs to Rending and loss of Assault from outfkank.
Lack of AP2 at range.
Lack of Anti Tank. (Tyranoffexes are too expensive, Zoans will die without drop pods but will take too long to show up in them.)
No Invuln saves on most everything.
Carnifaxes are worthless.
Hive Tyrants are expensive and extremely vulnerable for their points.
Most MCs in general are equally vulnerable and expensive.
It's too easy to take out Synapse and cripple the entire enemy force.
Nearly every army has some kind of hard counter for them.
And, while there are a few good choices, there simply aren't enough to carry a full balanced army.

So is he correct?

By extension, how would you suggest he improves his army?

No. Simply no.

AA is Flyrants. Next to Helldrakes, they are one of the best things out there.
Tervigons are amazing. Hands down the best troop unit in 40k.
Genestealers are subpar, but add a Broodlord with Iron arm? bye bye super expensive HQ units...
AP2? Who needs it? Throw enough saves at anything and it'll die #Devilgants/dakkafex

Yeah, lack of Invulns sucks but thats why we have Iron arm access.

Lastly, by being able to spam Biomancy, there's a huge access to FnP and enfeeble that can incredibly raise the effectiveness of LITERALLY every model in the army barring Pyrovores....

What about the good things with Nids? Reasonable artillery (Biovores), Awesome Elites (Hive guard, Ymargl genestealers, Zoans, DOOOOOOOOM). Dirt cheap troops. Super resilient MCs (With FnP or IA). Tons of deployment options, surprise elements, and did I mention DOOM?

By itself, the DOOM can make players change their plan. Thats enough to change the game in your favor....

I'll add more if you'd like, but they are/have been my favorite army since 3rd edition....

Gotta agree with Roxor. I think the Nids are from awful.

Who needs regular genestealers when you have Ymgarl Able to assault once they come from reserves, and able to increase toughness, attacks, or strength? That's pretty awesome, and able to mess up anyone's day.

No Anti-Tank? Hive Guard, or any MC? Pop a Trygon next to any vehicle and it will be a smoking wreak by the end of the turn. And on the subject of Carnifex's, I don't think they are completely useless. Equip them with Twinlinked Devourer's and it'll be eating stuff up.

And the Doom is so good he needs to be mentioned twice. That thing will eat anything up if you put it in a pod.

I disagree, I think that in 6th edition Nids got nerfed.

Look at the allies table, not an allie, despite all the genestealer cults that there are in the 40K universe.

Iron-arm has to be rolled for, therefore you can not rely on it.

IMHO Grey Hunters are the best troops in the game.

overwatch is a *censored*

feel no pain went from 4+ to 5+

People are far to scared of the Doom, remember you still get cover saves, so your defence line still gives you a nice 4+.

All the deny the witches out there also hurt.

No invuls or eternal warrior makes all the big stompy things pretty meaningless.

there H.S is pretty awful, far to over priced, 240pts for a trygon prime, please.

No way to kill zooming flyers, especially the storm raven.

Ystealers, far to expensive, can go warlord hunting if placed well but that's about it.

The flyrant is a pain in the backside, but yet again only a 3+ save, so all the melta,plasma and missile launchers will bring it down without to much fuss.

The only really good thing is that I.B-Feed got amazing, going from having to go to the closest enemy and having to charge to fully commandable with +2 attacks on the charge rather than +1.

Yes, Iron Arm has to be rolled for.

Now check the probability of the guys in question rolling it. The Swarmlord has an over 90% chance of getting it because he gets 4 rolls.

Nids should be using mostly defensive Psychic powers, which the enemy can't stop(unless they are Space Wolves and within a certain distance) Then remember that most of your own big guys are Psykers, so they'll have a 5+ DtW. And some may even have a 4+ DtW.


Overall, Nids are a solid mid tier army with only 1 bad matchup(Wolves with 2+ Jaws)

I´ve never seen that a runic weapon can negate every succsessful spell! awesome, you gotta love sw

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:
I disagree, I think that in 6th edition Nids got nerfed.

Look at the allies table, not an allie, despite all the genestealer cults that there are in the 40K universe.

Iron-arm has to be rolled for, therefore you can not rely on it.

IMHO Grey Hunters are the best troops in the game.

overwatch is a *censored*

feel no pain went from 4+ to 5+

People are far to scared of the Doom, remember you still get cover saves, so your defence line still gives you a nice 4+.

All the deny the witches out there also hurt.

No invuls or eternal warrior makes all the big stompy things pretty meaningless.

there H.S is pretty awful, far to over priced, 240pts for a trygon prime, please.

No way to kill zooming flyers, especially the storm raven.

Ystealers, far to expensive, can go warlord hunting if placed well but that's about it.

The flyrant is a pain in the backside, but yet again only a 3+ save, so all the melta,plasma and missile launchers will bring it down without to much fuss.

The only really good thing is that I.B-Feed got amazing, going from having to go to the closest enemy and having to charge to fully commandable with +2 attacks on the charge rather than +1.

Not sure if serious... Nids are amazing in 6th. Other than certain SW lists and DE, they have the tools to put up a good fight against any army. Even DEldar and SW we can take on half the time. Iron Arm fixes our EW issues. Ymgarls are freaking awesome. Psychic Flyrants (2 or more) are amazing, and can easily take out every flyer in the game short of the Stormraven. Even that we can take out with medium efficiency. Cover saves are so easy to get, we don't need Invulns from shooting. And if you're in CC with us, we're happy. FnP is more effective now because of Ap. 1/2. Lack of allies is meaningless. There isn't an army out there that synchronizes well with Nids anyway, we're not losing much there. The Doom is cheap enough that he's easily worth it, plus he usually drops BEHIND the line. And I would ALWAYS bet on a Tervigon vs equal points in hunters, even before you account for her benefits to the rest of the army. Deny the Witch is so much better for us since it replaces Hoods and Runes, so our blessings go off a lot more often, and our blessings are our most powerful powers. With 5 MC psykers in my army, I can rely on the fact that i'll get 2-3 Iron Arms, which is easily enough to get the job done. Overwatch is often negligible, plus we usually assault with multiple units when we do. Only Tau overwatch really matters.

EDIT: If anyone doubts Tyranid effectiveness, I would advise looking up Jy2s Battle Reports.

I would say that the Nids suffer from a lack of variety in their units, but can field mean lists. Flyrants, tervigons and the DOOM are all fantastic units. They seem like auto-include because they're head and shoulders above anything else. However, they can give anyone a run for their money. jy2 has an excellent battle report going on right now that shows how you can lose half your army in one turn and still eek out a win (possibly) by playing Nids.

I have a friend who runs a very successful drop Nids list as well. He uses the mass of mycetic spores to box enemies in and then shoots them straight into the warp. The mycetic spores are also pretty good anti-air with their mass of S6 shots that frequently look at the rear arc of fliers.

The only other caveat to lack of variety that I've noticed with Nids is that they don't do well in lower point games. I think they really come into their own at 1750 and above.

I think Nids do great at 500 and less, and then are good again at 1850+. OF course, it could be 1750 too, I've just never played that format.

 jifel wrote:

Not sure if serious... Nids are amazing in 6th. Other than certain SW lists and DE, they have the tools to put up a good fight against any army. Even DEldar and SW we can take on half the time. Iron Arm fixes our EW issues. Ymgarls are freaking awesome. Psychic Flyrants (2 or more) are amazing, and can easily take out every flyer in the game short of the Stormraven. Even that we can take out with medium efficiency. Cover saves are so easy to get, we don't need Invulns from shooting. And if you're in CC with us, we're happy. FnP is more effective now because of Ap. 1/2. Lack of allies is meaningless. There isn't an army out there that synchronizes well with Nids anyway, we're not losing much there. The Doom is cheap enough that he's easily worth it, plus he usually drops BEHIND the line. And I would ALWAYS bet on a Tervigon vs equal points in hunters, even before you account for her benefits to the rest of the army. Deny the Witch is so much better for us since it replaces Hoods and Runes, so our blessings go off a lot more often, and our blessings are our most powerful powers. With 5 MC psykers in my army, I can rely on the fact that i'll get 2-3 Iron Arms, which is easily enough to get the job done. Overwatch is often negligible, plus we usually assault with multiple units when we do. Only Tau overwatch really matters.

EDIT: If anyone doubts Tyranid effectiveness, I would advise looking up Jy2s Battle Reports.

Once again, voicing the opinion of my friend:

People seem to be pounding how awesome Iron Arm is. The power that you only will roll very occasionally. Psychic Flyrants are good, but you still only have a 1/3 chance of the oh-so-awesome Iron Arm. Assuming you spend the extra thirty points to take additional powers on Tervigons, you still only have a fifty-fifty chance.
How do you take out Stormravens with 'Medium Efficiency?' You're looking at an average of less than one hull point per turn. Not great.
As for Ymgarls, what's so awesome about them? Bear in mind since you have to start them in area terrain, they will strike at I1 on the first turn they charge. Since ten of them costs somewhere around 250 points, I'm not sure if that'll be earning it's points back very often.
The Doom is great, no denying it.
How are you getting 2-3 iron arms with only 5 MCs? Assuming two are Flyrants and three are Tervigons, you get an average of 1.2 Iron Arms. Spend the extra ninety points to get extra rolls on the Tervigons, and it's an average of 2, with 3 being rare.

Other points:
On the Anti Tank regard: I said no RANGED anti tank, in CC you're fine but that requires a couple turns of marching across the board. Hive Guard are decent, but against AV14 you might as well be throwing rocks at it. How is a Trygon going to immediately kill vehicles?
Tervigons are pretty good, but any decent focused firepower will eat them up. And once again, assuming you buy all the upgrades needed to make them effective, (Bonus Psychic rolls, Poisoned, Furious Charge,) you're looking at a troop choice which costs over 200 points and has potential to fall apart in one turn, while simultaneously taking out the nearby squads it had once been buffing.

And besides, any army with counters to psykers, (Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Eldar, etc.) will completely demolish them.

Once again, voicing the opinion of my friend:

People seem to be pounding how awesome Iron Arm is. The power that you only will roll very occasionally. Psychic Flyrants are good, but you still only have a 1/3 chance of the oh-so-awesome Iron Arm. Assuming you spend the extra thirty points to take additional powers on Tervigons, you still only have a fifty-fifty chance.
How do you take out Stormravens with 'Medium Efficiency?' You're looking at an average of less than one hull point per turn. Not great.
As for Ymgarls, what's so awesome about them? Bear in mind since you have to start them in area terrain, they will strike at I1 on the first turn they charge. Since ten of them costs somewhere around 250 points, I'm not sure if that'll be earning it's points back very often.
The Doom is great, no denying it.
How are you getting 2-3 iron arms with only 5 MCs? Assuming two are Flyrants and three are Tervigons, you get an average of 1.2 Iron Arms. Spend the extra ninety points to get extra rolls on the Tervigons, and it's an average of 2, with 3 being rare.

Other points:
On the Anti Tank regard: I said no RANGED anti tank, in CC you're fine but that requires a couple turns of marching across the board. Hive Guard are decent, but against AV14 you might as well be throwing rocks at it. How is a Trygon going to immediately kill vehicles?
Tervigons are pretty good, but any decent focused firepower will eat them up. And once again, assuming you buy all the upgrades needed to make them effective, (Bonus Psychic rolls, Poisoned, Furious Charge,) you're looking at a troop choice which costs over 200 points and has potential to fall apart in one turn, while simultaneously taking out the nearby squads it had once been buffing.

And besides, any army with counters to psykers, (Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Eldar, etc.) will completely demolish them.

The Ymgarls start out in terrain, but they don't necessarily have to assault units in terrain. They can walk out and punch other things, like tanks in rear armor with S5 rending.

Iron Arm is a fantastic bonus, but it's not a requirement for every creature. With how easy cover is to get for MCs, the lack of Iron Arm can be overcome in terms of weathering long range shooting.

In terms of tanks, not that many people bring them. Also, with smash you can overcome tanks in CC.

I would suggest that your friend check out the battle reports from jy2 and jifel to see how scary the nids can be.

Waaaghpower wrote:
No AA of S7+ whatsoever.

Who needs it? From a Flyrant, 9 hits, 1.5 glances against a Stormraven on average. Killing them in one turn is lucky, but I've done it multiple times.

Genestealers are practically worthless with nerfs to Rending and loss of Assault from outfkank.

Many people have had success with ninja Broodlord teams. I'm not one of them.

Lack of AP2 at range.

Who cares?

Lack of Anti Tank. (Tyranoffexes are too expensive, Zoans will die without drop pods but will take too long to show up in them.)

In an increasingly vehicle light meta, who cares? S6 is plenty nowadays.

No Invuln saves on most everything.

But cover is infinitely easier to get on MCs.

Carnifexes are worthless.

Exaggerating doesn't help you make your point.

Hive Tyrants are expensive and extremely vulnerable for their points.

Yeahno. They're easier to kill than, say, a character who gets to hide in a squad, but they aren't that vulnerable.

It's too easy to take out Synapse and cripple the entire enemy force.

Yeah, if you take out 1/3-1/2 of your opponents force they're going to be hurting. And?

Nearly every army has some kind of hard counter for them.

I know of 2. Tau and DE.

And, while there are a few good choices, there simply aren't enough to carry a full balanced army.

Suffice it to say, I disagree.

So is he correct?

By extension, how would you suggest he improves his army?

You haven't said what his army is, so how can we suggest improvements? Just looks like a lot of bitching right now.

Actually, I've personally never felt that it was necessarily DE that hard counter nids as much as it is the current army build (heavy MC) that suffers against it. Fight with spam gaunts and T3 units? Laugh as you rip the opponent apart. Heck, even on your MCs, they will usually be getting 3+ and 2+ saves. The real problem is the current (and from what I have heard, only) competitive build of nids. And to be frank, I've always felt like GK are a pretty hard counter since they can buy something to make power swords autopass.

Waaaghpower wrote:
nerfs to Rending

How so?

Yeah, I fail to see how Rending was nerfed or how it effected Nids.

Its not AP2 against vehicles, big whoop. AP2 didn't do anything against vehicles last edition any way.

The only way one might say nids are bad is that they are rather limited in their amount of competitive builds.

They were actually pretty strongly buffed with the addition of the BRB psychic tables.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 jifel wrote:
*snip*

Once again, voicing the opinion of my friend:

People seem to be pounding how awesome Iron Arm is. The power that you only will roll very occasionally. Psychic Flyrants are good, but you still only have a 1/3 chance of the oh-so-awesome Iron Arm. Assuming you spend the extra thirty points to take additional powers on Tervigons, you still only have a fifty-fifty chance.
How do you take out Stormravens with 'Medium Efficiency?' You're looking at an average of less than one hull point per turn. Not great.
As for Ymgarls, what's so awesome about them? Bear in mind since you have to start them in area terrain, they will strike at I1 on the first turn they charge. Since ten of them costs somewhere around 250 points, I'm not sure if that'll be earning it's points back very often.
The Doom is great, no denying it.
How are you getting 2-3 iron arms with only 5 MCs? Assuming two are Flyrants and three are Tervigons, you get an average of 1.2 Iron Arms. Spend the extra ninety points to get extra rolls on the Tervigons, and it's an average of 2, with 3 being rare.

Other points:
On the Anti Tank regard: I said no RANGED anti tank, in CC you're fine but that requires a couple turns of marching across the board. Hive Guard are decent, but against AV14 you might as well be throwing rocks at it. How is a Trygon going to immediately kill vehicles?
Tervigons are pretty good, but any decent focused firepower will eat them up. And once again, assuming you buy all the upgrades needed to make them effective, (Bonus Psychic rolls, Poisoned, Furious Charge,) you're looking at a troop choice which costs over 200 points and has potential to fall apart in one turn, while simultaneously taking out the nearby squads it had once been buffing.

And besides, any army with counters to psykers, (Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Eldar, etc.) will completely demolish them.

Yes, I throw 3 powers on my Tervigons. It is easily worth the points.

Having an average of two creatures with Iron Arm is enough. A toughness 8+ Flyrant is a bear to take out, same with Tervigons. That enough to win a game, as most armies literally can't take out enough MCs to deny my scoring units, and I can usually kill theirs. As to killing Storm Ravens? 1.5 glances average per Flyrant, 2 = 3 glances, which at least forces a jink. Plus, Ravens aren't very popular or good honestly. Ymgarls can move out of terrain, or assault out of terrain, and are used to pick off small squads or vehicles. Go +1 Toughness on the charge and laugh as your opponent hits first and fails to wound at all. Ranged anti Tank? Flyrants. But really, how many tanks are there in most armies now? I can usually afford to ignore most tank fire by simply staying in cover while I take out higher priority threats. Or, Ymgarls can take out prime targets. And a buffed Tervigon in cover? Not so easy to kill, I don't care how focused your fire is. You need luck, or to literally ignore the rest of my army. At which point I will kill you. And yes, Carnifex suck. So, I don't bring them... pretty simple there. Nids are a bad codex, but we have good limited lists.

England recently did a 3 day Tournie and the top ranked Army was Tyranids, as number 1 army.
Two units Doom (90 pts) Mysetic Spore (35pts), if placed right you will have a 10 str 10 wound behemoth 1st turn. The great this you wont have to do anything with him not even worth firing. Just lets your opponent spend their entire 1st turn getting rid of him and the spore.
That Swarmlord can just cut through anything, with instant kills and healing wounds.
oh yeah Hive Guard how can you not have them?

I don't think they are limited at all. You should look at Orks if you want to see a broken codex for 6th. If I don't take Nob Bikkers, I usually lose or even worse tabled.

 Sleg wrote:
England recently did a 3 day Tournie and the top ranked Army was Tyranids, as number 1 army.
Two units Doom (90 pts) Mysetic Spore (35pts), if placed right you will have a 10 str 10 wound behemoth 1st turn. The great this you wont have to do anything with him not even worth firing. Just lets your opponent spend their entire 1st turn getting rid of him and the spore.
That Swarmlord can just cut through anything, with instant kills and healing wounds.
oh yeah Hive Guard how can you not have them?

I don't think they are limited at all. You should look at Orks if you want to see a broken codex for 6th. If I don't take Nob Bikkers, I usually lose or even worse tabled.

I agree, except for two points: SPod is 40 for the Doom not 35. Also, he can't arrive until turn 2 at least.

 Sleg wrote:
England recently did a 3 day Tournie and the top ranked Army was Tyranids, as number 1 army.
Two units Doom (90 pts) Mysetic Spore (35pts), if placed right you will have a 10 str 10 wound behemoth 1st turn. The great this you wont have to do anything with him not even worth firing. Just lets your opponent spend their entire 1st turn getting rid of him and the spore.
That Swarmlord can just cut through anything, with instant kills and healing wounds.
oh yeah Hive Guard how can you not have them?

I don't think they are limited at all. You should look at Orks if you want to see a broken codex for 6th. If I don't take Nob Bikkers, I usually lose or even worse tabled.

Orks tend to dominate my local meta... With or without Nob Bikers.

Nids can be good, but the problem is that more than 50% of the units in the Codex aren't particularly good (with some being amongst the worst units in all of 40k). So yeah, Nids can be highly competitive, but you have to basically run a cookie-cutter list to do so (Flyrant, Zoanthropes, Tervigons, Biovores, etc).

And 3 str8 hits should kill the doom (however many wounds he got to) using regular math and probability at least, FnP and cover saves dont help in the slightest.
So the opponent really doesn't need to waste that much of his firepower to take it out unless his luck sucks or your luck is awesome.
Dont get me wrong, the doom is awesome but very far from invincible.

The combination of only have a few good units and not being able to take allies has made nids a very dull army to play. No variety, no new builds. Mine are retired as a focus on my Imperial Guard.

Allies really isn't a huge loss.

Tyranids are far from bad. There are some extremely strong choices in the current book.

There are also some dud units that should generally be avoided.

Interestingly though, the most numerous category is "average" units that can be great, can be worthless and are generally avoided by WAAC netlists because they are either a bit unreliable, harder to use than the Tervigon/Tyrant anvil/hammer or simply need a bit more support.

I would include in this category things like Hormagaunts, Raveners, Carnifexes, Venomthropes, Genestealers, Harpies etc. They can be made to work if you're willing to put some effort in.

Unless I'm playing an ultra-competitive game I always try and throw a few hundred points onto these sorts of units both to have a bit of fun trying to make them work and also simply to get a bit of variety.

A few weeks ago I had a real blast with a blob of 30 Toxic Hormagaunts (buffed with Endurance and Telekine Dome). Not something you see every day but amusing to use on that occasion.

Well since 6th came along my Nids has been doing very well, granted I have had some uphill battles against MEQ and such but then again that is noting new, in fact I dre say 6th made Nds a lot more forgiving to play.

Mysetic Spores, allow half of their numbers to arrive on turn 1 - just like Drop Pods. I don't have the codex in front of me so if the base cost is 40 not 35 (I don't think the 5 points are going to make or break taking it).

But I'm certain a Nid Player can dump a Mysetic Spore, 1st turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
never said Doom was invicible - I do say he is cheap and can put a real damper on your shooting first turn. I don't know about you but my list doesn't carry very many str8 attack. Lootas are 7, Dakkaguns are 5. I could use my Big Gunz Kannons against Doom for the Str 8 attacks - they hit half the time and wound a 3rd.
Nope normally what ever my plans were for 1st turn are usually shot because of a Doom/Mysetic Spore combo. Didn't say I didn't kill the doom 1st turn, I just said that either my powerful weapons in my force will have to reign fire upon it, instead of attack that swarmlord. and the Tyranid player can basically get a free turn.

Only two big problems I can see with nids currently.

1) No real diversity. Most of the lists that I've seen that win all look about the same. There are just some units in that book that you have to be crazy to use, or bored.

2)No model for the Doom. Seriously, not sure what's up with that. GW has had to notice that the Doom appears pretty frequently in lists and yet still no model.

Other than that though, Nids are doing just fine for now. Maybe they aren't the best army at the moment but they are far from the worst imo.

 Sleg wrote:
Mysetic Spores, allow half of their numbers to arrive on turn 1 - just like Drop Pods. I don't have the codex in front of me so if the base cost is 40 not 35 (I don't think the 5 points are going to make or break taking it).

But I'm certain a Nid Player can dump a Mysetic Spore, 1st turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
never said Doom was invicible - I do say he is cheap and can put a real damper on your shooting first turn. I don't know about you but my list doesn't carry very many str8 attack. Lootas are 7, Dakkaguns are 5. I could use my Big Gunz Kannons against Doom for the Str 8 attacks - they hit half the time and wound a 3rd.
Nope normally what ever my plans were for 1st turn are usually shot because of a Doom/Mysetic Spore combo. Didn't say I didn't kill the doom 1st turn, I just said that either my powerful weapons in my force will have to reign fire upon it, instead of attack that swarmlord. and the Tyranid player can basically get a free turn.

Sadly there is nothing in the book about this, Spores just put your units in Reserve.

 Sleg wrote:
Mysetic Spores, allow half of their numbers to arrive on turn 1 - just like Drop Pods. I don't have the codex in front of me so if the base cost is 40 not 35 (I don't think the 5 points are going to make or break taking it).

But I'm certain a Nid Player can dump a Mysetic Spore, 1st turn.

There is no such rule in the Tyranid codex that makes Mycetic Spores do that. If you've been doing this, you've not been following the rules. Really - read the codex entry again when you get a hold of it.

Space Marine drop pods do this. Mycetic Spores aren't Space Marine drop pods.