Ork questions

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**Vombat**

Hello Dakka

Im reading around in the ork codex and noticed a few things.

My Ork warboss rides a bike. How many weapons is he allowed to shoot? In the rule book they say that a biker is allowed to shoot one weapon per rider (refering to the Space Marine attackbike).
My warboss model happend to be a trike with a private driver. The driver is even holding the dakkagun and the warboss the scourga shoota combiweapon. This is not an original warboss on bike model but on the other hand there is no such model available. What if you give him the upgrade ammorunt? Then the model clearly have two riders. But on the other hand is says that the ammo runt has no gaming purpouse. How about an attack squig? Can the squig man the dakkagun? It says nowhere in the rules that the squig cant, sure it doesnt have a BS but neither does the rider in the space marine attackbike. They both share the same profile.
Btw, this even applies to the normal biker nob, if you add the little grot hanging onto his bosspole. This is after all the original model.

How does the big bomb from the Ork Deffkoptas work? You fly over the target and drop the bomb, either normal move or turbo boost. Does this counts as firing a weapon? So if you dont turbo boost, are you allowed to fire your main guns too? And if so, at what target? How do you remove casualties? Do you pick them from the closest to the Deffkoptas where they land, where they start their bomb run or from the center of the blast as barrage?

**nosferatu1001**

Does the model have two riders in the rules? This is designed for Attack bikes, not your model.

If you can only drop in the movement phase, you cannot "turboboost" move - that occurs in the SHooting phase in 6th edition.

**Mywik**

Vombat wrote:
Hello Dakka

Im reading around in the ork codex and noticed a few things.

My Ork warboss rides a bike. How many weapons is he allowed to shoot? In the rule book they say that a biker is allowed to shoot one weapon per rider (refering to the Space Marine attackbike).
My warboss model happend to be a trike with a private driver. The driver is even holding the dakkagun and the warboss the scourga shoota combiweapon. This is not an original warboss on bike model but on the other hand there is no such model available. What if you give him the upgrade ammorunt? Then the model clearly have two riders. But on the other hand is says that the ammo runt has no gaming purpouse. How about an attack squig? Can the squig man the dakkagun? It says nowhere in the rules that the squig cant, sure it doesnt have a BS but neither does the rider in the space marine attackbike. They both share the same profile.
Btw, this even applies to the normal biker nob, if you add the little grot hanging onto his bosspole. This is after all the original model.

First of all the rules in warhammer dont tell you what you can't do. They tell you what you CAN do. If the rules dont say you can do something - you cant. Not the other way around. So if theres no entry telling you that the attack squid or ammo runt enable your warboss to shoot a second weapon, they cant.

Also making conversions like a warboss on a trike manned by an additional driver is a very cool thing and i emphasize you to do such conversions. Playing against a good looking army with nice conversions is always a lot of fun. Nevertheless you have to play such conversions after the normal rules for the model it is representing. It doesnt matter how you modeled him. If you're playing friendly games only you can of course ask your opponent if you can play your warboss differently and if he has no problem with it you'll be fine. Just be aware that most players wont allow stuff like that.

**jason1977**

cause red goes faster

Vombat wrote:
Hello Dakka

Im reading around in the ork codex and noticed a few things.

My Ork warboss rides a bike. How many weapons is he allowed to shoot? one
In the rule book they say that a biker is allowed to shoot one weapon per rider (refering to the Space Marine attackbike).
My warboss model happend to be a trike with a private driver. The driver is even holding the dakkagun and the warboss the scourga shoota combiweapon. This is not an original warboss on bike model but on the other hand there is no such model available. The biker mob kit does have some larger warboss size bits to make one. There is also the FW model.
What if you give him the upgrade ammorunt? ammo runt only allows a missed roll to hit to be rerolled in shooting.
Then the model clearly have two riders. But on the other hand is says that the ammo runt has no gaming purpouse. How about an attack squig?attack squig is +1 attack
Can the squig man the dakkagun? It says nowhere in the rules that the squig cant, sure it doesnt have a BS but neither does the rider in the space marine attackbike. They both share the same profile.
Btw, this even applies to the normal biker nob, if you add the little grot hanging onto his bosspole. This is after all the original model.

While it would seem normal for orks to have every possible model shoot a gun in this case it is not possible.

How does the big bomb from the Ork Deffkoptas work? You fly over the target and drop the bomb, either normal move or turbo boost. Does this counts as firing a weapon? So if you dont turbo boost, are you allowed to fire your main guns too? And if so, at what target? How do you remove casualties? Do you pick them from the closest to the Deffkoptas where they land, where they start their bomb run or from the center of the blast as barrage?I dont use the big bomb option. Sorry.

**Dakkamite**

Feel free to model your Ammo Runt shooting a gun or whatever, but no, he can't shoot a gun in the game.

Why you'd want to fiddle with the rules to get a free Grot Blasta shot I don't even know...

**Vombat**

Its not that I try to get a free grot blasta shot. The model has two weapons, the dakkaguns on the bike and the kombi shoota.
The rule for bike says each rider can fire a gun. And if my model has more then 1 rider, I can fire more guns.

I dont claim that I should be allowed to add extra riders to fire more guns, Im just asking if the ammorunt and the squig are riders. Hence then they can shoot according to the biker rules.
I know its abit confusing but I thought the wordings in the rules are rather unclear so I thought it was a good idea to bring the question up.

How about the biker nob. The one you buy in the three pack bikers. He got a grot hanging on to his bosspole. This is two riders and a GW original model without any convertions.
The rule say one gun per rider. So I guess he can fire an extra gun then?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Does the model have two riders in the rules? This is designed for Attack bikes, not your model.

Attack bikes doesnt have two riders in the rules either, they just have an extra wound. And so does the nob biker.

**CthuluIsSpy**

The grot is not riding the bike. It's just an accessory. Look at the biker's entry; does it say there are 2 riders?

The Nob biker has 2 wounds because it is a nob. All nobs have 2 wounds.

**jason1977**

A nob biker has more than one wound because a normal nob has more than one wound. A normal space marine guy has one wound as does a noraml marine biker. A marine attack bike has 2 wounds since there are 2 guys. IF a marine attack bike was to suffer one wound, the marine left would only be able to fire one weapon and not both.

**BunnyCommando**

jason1977 wrote:
A nob biker has more than one wound because a normal nob has more than one wound. A normal space marine guy has one wound as does a noraml marine biker. A marine attack bike has 2 wounds since there are 2 guys. IF a marine attack bike was to suffer one wound, the marine left would only be able to fire one weapon and not both.

Not quite, a wounded Attack Bike is just that: a wounded Attack Bike. It doesn't lose one of it's crew, nor does it lose the ability to shoot a weapon.

(Unless I'm missing something under the 6th ed rules, in which case, please call me out on this)

**jason1977**

BunnyCommando wrote:
jason1977 wrote:
A nob biker has more than one wound because a normal nob has more than one wound. A normal space marine guy has one wound as does a noraml marine biker. A marine attack bike has 2 wounds since there are 2 guys. IF a marine attack bike was to suffer one wound, the marine left would only be able to fire one weapon and not both.

Not quite, a wounded Attack Bike is just that: a wounded Attack Bike. It doesn't lose one of it's crew, nor does it lose the ability to shoot a weapon.

(Unless I'm missing something under the 6th ed rules, in which case, please call me out on this)

A marine attack bike has 2 riders and 2 weapons. 1 driver (twin linked bolters) and 1 side car guy (HB or MM). If one of them was to die (leaving one guy) we are back to the one rider one gun rule.

**rigeld2**

Except you don't remove a rider when you remove a wound.

**CthuluIsSpy**

jason1977 wrote:
BunnyCommando wrote:
jason1977 wrote:
A nob biker has more than one wound because a normal nob has more than one wound. A normal space marine guy has one wound as does a noraml marine biker. A marine attack bike has 2 wounds since there are 2 guys. IF a marine attack bike was to suffer one wound, the marine left would only be able to fire one weapon and not both.

Not quite, a wounded Attack Bike is just that: a wounded Attack Bike. It doesn't lose one of it's crew, nor does it lose the ability to shoot a weapon.

(Unless I'm missing something under the 6th ed rules, in which case, please call me out on this)

A marine attack bike has 2 riders and 2 weapons. 1 driver (twin linked bolters) and 1 side car guy (HB or MM). If one of them was to die (leaving one guy) we are back to the one rider one gun rule.

Sadly, the rules aren't that complex. If an attack bike loses a wound, it does not lose a rider, despite what common sense may say.

**jason1977**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
jason1977 wrote:
BunnyCommando wrote:
jason1977 wrote:
A nob biker has more than one wound because a normal nob has more than one wound. A normal space marine guy has one wound as does a noraml marine biker. A marine attack bike has 2 wounds since there are 2 guys. IF a marine attack bike was to suffer one wound, the marine left would only be able to fire one weapon and not both.

Not quite, a wounded Attack Bike is just that: a wounded Attack Bike. It doesn't lose one of it's crew, nor does it lose the ability to shoot a weapon.

(Unless I'm missing something under the 6th ed rules, in which case, please call me out on this)

A marine attack bike has 2 riders and 2 weapons. 1 driver (twin linked bolters) and 1 side car guy (HB or MM). If one of them was to die (leaving one guy) we are back to the one rider one gun rule.

Sadly, the rules aren't that complex. If an attack bike loses a wound, it does not lose a rider, despite what common sense may say.

It may be RAW (rule as written) vrs RAI (rule as intended). I have always played lose a wound, lose a rider, lose a weapon.

Now if for some reason a SM commander was driving the attack bike and the bike lost a wound........

**Vombat**

Its not about RAW or RAI. What you claim isnt written anywhere.
Its the same with the imperial guard weapon team, one model with two wounds representing two guys. If a 10man squad takes 3 wounds, two normal guardsmen and one wound on a heavy weapon team they dont need to take a panic test, because the "loader" doesn't count as a removed model.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Yep, if they wanted it so that wounding a two man team removed one of the members, they would have implemented it a long time ago.

**Vombat**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The grot is not riding the bike. It's just an accessory. Look at the biker's entry; does it say there are 2 riders?

The Nob biker has 2 wounds because it is a nob. All nobs have 2 wounds.

Look at the attack bike entry, it says nowhere it has two riders. The only way you can see it has two riders is by looking at the model, looking at the number of wounds and looking in the rulebook under bikers and shooting where they use the attackbike as an example.

I know that the nob has two wounds because he is a nob, but thats the only way they showed that the attackbiker have two riders.

If you just look at the rules:
Both the attackbiker and the nob (with the grot) have more then one wound.
Both the attackbiker and the nob (with the grot) have more then one weapon.
Both the attackbiker and the nob (with the grot) have two riders on the original model.
Both the attackbiker and the nob (with the grot) have unit type "bike".
Only the attackbiker is mentioned as an example in the rulebook p.45 but it doesn't exclude any other.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Vombat wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The grot is not riding the bike. It's just an accessory. Look at the biker's entry; does it say there are 2 riders?

The Nob biker has 2 wounds because it is a nob. All nobs have 2 wounds.

Look at the attack bike entry, it says nowhere it has two riders. The only way you can see it has two riders is by looking at the model, looking at the number of wounds and looking in the rulebook under bikers and shooting where they use the attackbike as an example.

I know that the nob has two wounds because he is a nob, but thats the only way they showed that the attackbiker was two riders.

If you just look at the rules:
Both the attackbiker and the nob (with the grot) have more then one wound.
Both the attackbiker and the nob (with the grot) have more then one weapon.
Both the attackbiker and the nob (with the grot) have two riders on the original model.
Both the attackbiker and the nob (with the grot) have unit type "bike".
Only the attackbiker is mentioned as an example in the rulebook p.45 but it doesn't exclude any other.

As I said before, the reason why the nob bike has more than one wound is because the nob, by default, has more than 1 wound.
If the bike had 3 wounds you would have a point.

The attack bike on the other hand is made up of 2 space marines, which by default have 1 wound. As the attack bike has 2 riders, it has 2 wounds.

Also, is the grot even riding? It looks more like an accessory. It is not seated (like the attack bike) or is it manning a weapon (like the attack bike).
I think adding a grot as a gunner in this case counts as "modelling for advantage," especially as the grot is BS3.

Out of curiosity, what does it say under the Attack Biker entry in C: SM? Does it specify there are 2 riders?

**Vombat**

We can skip the wound this, I was just countering the argument "but the attackbike has two wounds".

I just checked the C:SM entry and it says nothing about the extra rider. Exept one thing...
They have the unit type "Bikes" instead of "Bike". In the rulebook there is rules for "Bikes" but not for "Bike"
The Ork warbikers have the rule "Bikers" tho.
Ok ok, Im beeing picky, its most likely a typo.

But if the rule only apply if the second rider is seated or not doesnt really makes sence. And I cant really find any support in the rule book for that either.

I guess what they should do is remove the rule for additional riders in the rule book and add a special rule just for the C:SM Attack bike that they can fire both weapons if this is what they intended with the rules.

**jason1977**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Out of curiosity, what does it say under the Attack Biker entry in C: SM? Does it specify there are 2 riders?

C: D A (current) does not state 2 riders on an attack bike but lists 2 wounds

C: D A (last OOP) does state 2 riding an attack bike (pg 26) and lists 2 wounds

C: D A (first solo codex) does not state 2 on attack bike BUT only lists one wound for attack bike

C: D A (first with BA??) does not list 2 riders BUT only lists one wound for attack bike

C:SM (Marneus Calgar cover) lists 2 riders and 2 wounds {newest book I have}

C:SM (Crimson Fists cover) does not state number of riders BUT lists 1 wound

**CthuluIsSpy**

Vombat wrote:
We can skip the wound this, I was just countering the argument "but the attackbike has two wounds".

I just checked the C:SM entry and it says nothing about the extra rider. Exept one thing...
They have the unit type "Bikes" instead of "Bike". In the rulebook there is rules for "Bikes" but not for "Bike"
The Ork warbikers have the rule "Bikers" tho.
Ok ok, Im beeing picky, its most likely a typo.

But if the rule only apply if the second rider is seated or not doesnt really makes sence. And I cant really find any support in the rule book for that either.

I guess what they should do is remove the rule for additional riders in the rule book and add a special rule just for the C:SM Attack bike that they can fire both weapons if this is what they intended with the rules.

Yeah, it's most likely a typo.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

jason1977 wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Out of curiosity, what does it say under the Attack Biker entry in C: SM? Does it specify there are 2 riders?

C: D A (current) does not state 2 riders on an attack bike but lists 2 wounds

C: D A (last OOP) does state 2 riding an attack bike (pg 26) and lists 2 wounds

C: D A (first solo codex) does not state 2 on attack bike BUT only lists one wound for attack bike

C: D A (first with BA??) does not list 2 riders BUT only lists one wound for attack bike

C:SM (Marneus Calgar cover) lists 2 riders and 2 wounds {newest book I have}

C:SM (Crimson Fists cover) does not state number of riders BUT lists 1 wound

Huh, so going by the most recent (The DA dex); it does not specify there are 2 riders, only wounds.

Wait, I just realized something. The grot has a different statline, so if it were another rider it would be listed in the profile. Now, for the S and T you could argue that you use the nobs, but you can't make the same argument for the BS, which is 3 as opposed to the nob's 2.

**jason1977**

I sat down with the rule book On page 45 (big or small) it does state 'each bike or jet bike in a unit can fire with one weapon for each rider on the bike. Thus a Marine attack bike can with a driver and passenger in a sidecar can fire 2 weapons'.

I may be going to deep into the lose a wound lose a rider/gunner. Sorry about that. We should look at it as a model with 2 wounds.

**sirlynchmob**

For the bigboom:

FAQ:
Page 48 – Bigbomm
Change the second sentence to “Centre the large blast
template with the central hole on a model that the Deffkopta
has passed over during its Movement or Shooting phase.”

So you can bomb them in either the moving or shooting phase.
Allthough if you turbo boost to use it, then you can't fire based on the restrictions from turbo boosting. pg 45.
You can bomb in the movement phase, then fire as normal in the shooting phase.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Nevermind...

**Multimoog**

The whole reason the bigbomm is great is because you CAN use it whether you've turboboosted or not, during any time you would move that model.