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Rampant speculation:

I seriously doubt the GW stores make a lot of money. Most of them probably struggle to break even.

The successful gaming stores I'm aware of do well because they capture a lot of "gaming wallet share", i.e. one store sells you all your models, paints, board games, comics, dice, et cetera.

Trying to make a retail venture out of only GW products seems foolhardy. A store will do better if they can support the entire hobby, stock Battle Foam, other brands of paint, brushes, et cetera..

Things that aren't sustainable won't be sustained.
Maybe the rumors of GW being bought will turn out to be true. In that case, I doubt the GW retail stores will all stick around.

i.e. if a company like Hasbro owned GW, you'd expect the business model to be more like MTG and less like Old Navy.

weeble1000 wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 ironicsilence wrote:
I mentioned it in the wave serpent thread but the wave serpent isnt truly direct only, FLGS can still get the wave serpent, it just costs the store more then a standard kit and GW makes no promises on when it will actually ship to the store. I currently have 3 on order on my FLGS (they discount 15% off GW product) and they had no problem putting the order in with there GW rep

I think it was mikhaila that said that a FLGS needed about a 30% margin to break even.

So if your store is getting a reduced margin from GW themselves and are putting on a 15% discount on top of that, are they even making any money on those kits or are they ordering them just as a favour for their regular customers?

I have noted several gaming stores that basically do just that. They don't keep GW stock on the shelves, but will place orders for existing customers.

Yes we have one of those here as well, but for the regular orders, the store will still get the usual discount (40% I think it is), for these "direct only" items like the "new" Wave Serpent, the store discount will be allot smaller.

I'm curious where the assumption that the WS is going direct only came from. While it was pulled I was under the impression that it was in preparation for a dual kit (and thus a price hike). To conserve space and increase profits.

Oh, and Bunkers made sense when they were also regional HQ's. All that extra space was for trade sales and regional management and made sense. Currently most of the SF isn't used and they are complete money losers with the possible exception of the Chicago bunker. All the rest needed to close. Especially since reducing to a 1-man store likely shifted enough funds loose to open 2 more 1-mans on top of the existing one man which is the direction they seem to want to go.

Orktavius wrote:So GW should keep massive money losers like the bunker stores open so people can game there? Yup, sounds like sound business advice from the internets.

The Battle bunkers based on their size would have massive overhead in rent, overhead not being met by store sales. The baltimore bunker made sense when GW USA's headquarters was there, same with the bunker in Ontario for GW Canada's headquarters. LA was apparently losing money hand over fist and I have no clue about Chicago though I heard it actually makes money.

Chicago was making money, when they were operating under a very different business model. I have no idea if they are now.

When I started visiting the Chicago Bunker, there were a good number of reasons to go there, as opposed to anywhere else.

- They carried specialist games, in stock, all the time.
- They carried Forge World, in stock, all the time.
- They ran events on a regular basis
- They had the best tables in the area, by far. They got old games-day tables, and we had things like an ork scrapyard to play on which had easily over $1k in bitz used in its construction.
- The manager was a human being, able to track their inventory with what players wanted, and they were rarely, if ever, out of stock on anything; at least nothing I tried to buy.
- They were close to a Chicago staple, Portillos, where we'd get lunch

Over the years, these things changed, one-by-one

- Specialist games are no longer available
- FW is not only not-available, but you can't even order it there anymore
- Events are almost non-existent, those that are run, are run by individual groups, not the staff
- All the tables have been replaced by Realm of Battle + Citadel Terrain
- Inventory control is now computer managed. The computer says they should have two Riptides, so they order two. If they sell those two, they're out of stock until the computer orders them two more. Lately, they have been consistently out-of-stock on whatever item I would like to purchase.
- They're still near Portillos.

All the reasons for actually going to the Bunker have ceased to exist, except the one that's not actually under GWs control (the nearby restaurant).

If this is anything like the other stores, you have to wonder, why would you expect a store that offers no reason to visit it to be profitable?

It's not like we all don't know how to get GW products at a discount on the internet. If you want to sell GW models at full-retail, you need to give people a reason to go to GW to buy them. It seems as though their current approach is to pick a small handful of products and not let anyone else sell them though, rather than actually making some sort of effort to woo customers to their store. I'm one of those people who will always pay where I play, but the sad truth is, I have no reason to play at the bunker anymore. My group plays in our basements most of the time these days, where at least we have beer.

PhantomViper wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 ironicsilence wrote:
I mentioned it in the wave serpent thread but the wave serpent isnt truly direct only, FLGS can still get the wave serpent, it just costs the store more then a standard kit and GW makes no promises on when it will actually ship to the store. I currently have 3 on order on my FLGS (they discount 15% off GW product) and they had no problem putting the order in with there GW rep

I think it was mikhaila that said that a FLGS needed about a 30% margin to break even.

So if your store is getting a reduced margin from GW themselves and are putting on a 15% discount on top of that, are they even making any money on those kits or are they ordering them just as a favour for their regular customers?

I have noted several gaming stores that basically do just that. They don't keep GW stock on the shelves, but will place orders for existing customers.

Yes we have one of those here as well, but for the regular orders, the store will still get the usual discount (40% I think it is), for these "direct only" items like the "new" Wave Serpent, the store discount will be allot smaller.

I believe based on the conversation I had with the owner, they generally get 40% for the stuff they have to stock, for the direct stuff its 30% or 35%, the cost isnt really the restrictive part as its much more then time it takes to ship. When a store places a direct order item on its trade order, GW gives zero shipping commitment and the store is basically agreeing to allow GW to ship the direct only item to them whenever they get around to it. Least that is the info I was given by the store owner

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

GW are also opening stores - I noticed a new one on the way in Inverness and another one in Rotherham.

I'm surprised that GW is opening a shop in Inverness given that all the shops that I used to get my GW stuff from no longer stocks any GW stuff at all. If it follows the usual GW store model of no gaming space etc then I won't be surprised if it is significantly loss making.

Short term proft, long term loss seems to be GW primary goal these days.

 Palindrome wrote:

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

GW are also opening stores - I noticed a new one on the way in Inverness and another one in Rotherham.

I'm surprised that GW is opening a shop in Inverness given that all the shops that I used to get my GW stuff from no longer stocks any GW stuff at all. If it follows the usual GW store model of no gaming space etc then I won't be surprised if it is significantly loss making.

Short term proft, long term loss seems to be GW primary goal these days.

Er... what? You're surprised they're opening a shop, based on the experience of.. another shop that's not GW? Does not compute.

The Scottish GW outlets I've been in - I'm thinking specifically of Aberdeen IIRC - are fantastic with lots of gaming space. Aberdeen has an entire floor upstrairs that's always packed when I've been in, plus really helpful staff. I was chatting to a fella from the city in Dark Sphere a couple weeks ago and he mentioned it was still buzzing. From what I've seen, in areas where rental costs are low (OK, and where there\s maybe not as much happening in general), GW often have much busier shops so I would guess this will be a fair-sized outlet. Despite your experience with another shop... that isn't GW.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

Er... what? You're surprised they're opening a shop, based on the experience of.. another shop that's not GW? Does not compute.

If the other shops dropped GW's lines it is almost certainly because they were not profitable. they certainly seemed to be stockpiling old stock lines. If a small sideline for shops that sold other things were dropped by those shops why would a shop dedicated to selling those products, and only those products, be sustainable?

Inverness has been rumoured to be getting a GW for years, presumably the rents are cheap enough now for GW to finally open one but I seriously doubt that there is a strong enough customer base to support it.

There hasn't been a shop that sold GW that also had gaming tables for about a decade (to my knowledge at least and that was a weird toy/electrical shop hybrid) and the wargaming club in the area seems to have died so with the proper facilities and customer care it may work. Maybe.

 Redbeard wrote:
Chicago was making money, when they were operating under a very different business model. I have no idea if they are now.

According to the former Seattle bunker manager, none of the bunkers are profitable even when they were showing growth. I expect the decision to close the bunkers involves closing the least profitable ones first.

 Redbeard wrote:
All the reasons for actually going to the Bunker have ceased to exist, except the one that's not actually under GWs control (the nearby restaurant).

If this is anything like the other stores, you have to wonder, why would you expect a store that offers no reason to visit it to be profitable?

Others have noted that GW doesn't want to support actual gaming. GW seems to want people to buy their stuff then gtfo. I think they see Apple's business model and want to duplicate it. Right now they really don't have significant competition to cause them to reconsider their decision. Privateer Press may be nipping at GW's heels but that doesn't mean much as being second to GW is a "figuratively" low bar to hurdle. PP will have to up their volume of business considerably before GW takes them seriously as competition.

 Redbeard wrote:
It's not like we all don't know how to get GW products at a discount on the internet.

You may have noticed that GW is gradually working toward "fixing" this problem. Web "exclusives" and direct sales are apparently working well enough for them that they appear to be transitioning more items over to that model. Eventual control of the entire retail process from manufacturing to sales is clearly the direction they're working toward and until someone comes along and begins to take market share (and thus money) away from GW, they have no reason to change course. Right now, I don't see anyone even trying.

I always thought that Apple wanted you hanging out in the store, playing with the devices, talking with the Geniuses, interacting with Apple stuff.

And of course Apple embraces third party accessories. Apple does not even make its own cases for phones and has encouraged the growth of a gigantic and thriving app ecosystem by making development software freely available.

@Breotan.
GW plc is a bit like the last Dinosaur looking for another Dinosaur to threaten it.
And they seem to be totally oblivious to all the mammals that are better suited to survive into the future all around them.

GW plc HAS LOST OVER 50% OF THEIR SALES VOLUME SINCE 2005.(And is continuing to loose sales volume at ever faster rate!)

Unfortunately Mr Kirby has simply taken the easiest actions to keep the company profitable short term, while seriously damaging its long term survival.
And Mr Kirby simply puts enough spin any action he may decide to take to appease the share holders.

Quite simply GW has lost sight of what its core buisness, and customer was.And seems to be happy continuing to devolve to suit the lowest common denominator.

Games Workshop went from, B.A 1990 '... making games to engage and inspire our customers..'

To T.K. 2004 '..selling toy soldiers to children..'

Breotan wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:
Chicago was making money, when they were operating under a very different business model. I have no idea if they are now.

According to the former Seattle bunker manager, none of the bunkers are profitable even when they were showing growth. I expect the decision to close the bunkers involves closing the least profitable ones first.

This is not what I heard. I was told that the ordering of the closings is simply due to when their leases expire. They're simply not renewing the leases on those spaces. We're expecting Chicago to shut its doors in October.

Lanrak wrote:


GW plc HAS LOST OVER 50% OF THEIR SALES VOLUME SINCE 2005.(And is continuing to loose sales volume at ever faster rate!)

U

2005 sales volume (top of the market... lots of companies are struggling to regain 2007 turnover): £136.6m
2012 sales volume: £131.1m.

Down somewhat but the city seems to think those figures are pretty good, or at least have outperformed the market .

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

Lanrak wrote:


GW plc HAS LOST OVER 50% OF THEIR SALES VOLUME SINCE 2005.(And is continuing to loose sales volume at ever faster rate!)

U

2005 sales volume (top of the market... lots of companies are struggling to regain 2007 turnover): £136.6m
2012 sales volume: £131.1m.

Down somewhat but the city seems to think those figures are pretty good, or at least have outperformed the market .

Someone else posted the real numbers somewhere else on Dakka, but after you take inflation and price increases out of the equation, sales volume has dropped drastically. GW is still making money because they are selling less product but at a far higher rate. The number of units shipped has steadily dropped though.

Edit: Neither here nor there for me, but I always thought it was interesting. GW certainly looks like they want to cut out the FLGS middle man entirely, which seems like a terrible idea. I was under the impression that killing off your largest distributors was a bad thing.

 Redbeard wrote:

Orktavius wrote:So GW should keep massive money losers like the bunker stores open so people can game there? Yup, sounds like sound business advice from the internets.

The Battle bunkers based on their size would have massive overhead in rent, overhead not being met by store sales. The baltimore bunker made sense when GW USA's headquarters was there, same with the bunker in Ontario for GW Canada's headquarters. LA was apparently losing money hand over fist and I have no clue about Chicago though I heard it actually makes money.

Chicago was making money, when they were operating under a very different business model. I have no idea if they are now.

When I started visiting the Chicago Bunker, there were a good number of reasons to go there, as opposed to anywhere else.

- They carried specialist games, in stock, all the time.
- They carried Forge World, in stock, all the time.
- They ran events on a regular basis
- They had the best tables in the area, by far. They got old games-day tables, and we had things like an ork scrapyard to play on which had easily over $1k in bitz used in its construction.
- The manager was a human being, able to track their inventory with what players wanted, and they were rarely, if ever, out of stock on anything; at least nothing I tried to buy.
- They were close to a Chicago staple, Portillos, where we'd get lunch

Over the years, these things changed, one-by-one

- Specialist games are no longer available
- FW is not only not-available, but you can't even order it there anymore
- Events are almost non-existent, those that are run, are run by individual groups, not the staff
- All the tables have been replaced by Realm of Battle + Citadel Terrain
- Inventory control is now computer managed. The computer says they should have two Riptides, so they order two. If they sell those two, they're out of stock until the computer orders them two more. Lately, they have been consistently out-of-stock on whatever item I would like to purchase.
- They're still near Portillos.

All the reasons for actually going to the Bunker have ceased to exist, except the one that's not actually under GWs control (the nearby restaurant).

If this is anything like the other stores, you have to wonder, why would you expect a store that offers no reason to visit it to be profitable?

It's not like we all don't know how to get GW products at a discount on the internet. If you want to sell GW models at full-retail, you need to give people a reason to go to GW to buy them. It seems as though their current approach is to pick a small handful of products and not let anyone else sell them though, rather than actually making some sort of effort to woo customers to their store. I'm one of those people who will always pay where I play, but the sad truth is, I have no reason to play at the bunker anymore. My group plays in our basements most of the time these days, where at least we have beer.

+1 to this.

They all were, until the new regime decided to go all stupid and push the stores and bunkers into the brassiere selling model that they came up with out of the blue.

The stores were focal points of activities, had a reason to be located in strip malls, and the whole general quality of the game practically sold itself. Yes, people these days are either willfully ignorant of the fact that these stores were interrelated as far as activities with an outreach program infused with enthusiasm and people that you know... actually did more then try to just shill product with a gakky attitude.

Feth, I can't be the only one that remembers the world wide campaigns and other activities, such as the skulls program, the painting activities, the inter related stuff such as the White Dwarf crossover events and in house terrain classes and "'Eavy Metal" nights.

Just like you are starting to hear a majority d bag stance of "These places are not supposed to be where you play at..." People quickly forget that the stores AND bunkers were set up for exactly that service. As well as indoctrination centers, the stores were where GW brought the WD events and input to life at. ( More then a few stores in house events even made it into WD for showcases of "LOOK WHAT WE'RE DOING, COME JOIN US!!!"

It's kinda interesting because even though theres a fairly big and popular GW Bunker in my area, as well as a few FLGS with their own gaming space, way more gaming is happening at the regular club meetups and at peoples homes.

In Sydney the main Bunker (and the only non-single man store left methinks) is located right next door to another FLGS. Funnily enough 40k practice happens more there than in the actual GW (probably due to the more...[and for lack of a better word] restrictive atmosphere). We've actually done tournaments/tournament practice at the FLGS to avoid the GW bunker entirely due to the scope of the events GW does (nothing but tank battles, Hobbit and other eye-rolling events which are of little or no consequence).

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
If they do give up on providing a place to play and think they then they are giving up on GW-only customers. They have always tried to make their customers reliant solely on GW to the exclusion of all else, even on things like glue which is available cheaper and better elsewhere.

If you don't play in a GW store there's no reason to have a GW only army, and you'll be exposed to a lot wider hobby much faster. This is great for the hobby but I don't see that it helps GW that much really unless they only expect most customers to only come back once or twice.

Another +1 to this.

I used to be a guy that only bought GW stuff. Why? Because GW had some of the better models on the market, and in order to play in big events like 'Ard Boyz and GTs, all my stuff had to be GW. It was fine because it supplied more reasons to buy GW product.

Fast forward to today, dollar wise I spend about 30% of my wargaming budget on GW. The rest goes to other model/hobby companies, but its all still for 40k. What happened?
1: GW paint got more expensive, so I got artist acrylics and mix many of my own colors now.
2: No more GW sponsored tournaments/events that I actually want to go too. Basically, no more 'Ard Boyz, no reason for me to stay 100% GW.
3: Codex prices went up 150%, I only buy codexes for armies I own, rather than buy every release.
4: Other companies (Raging Heroes, Puppetswar, Hightech minis, Scibor, Kromlech) make just as good, or often much better and more dynamic models. So I can fill out my armies more with non-GW models and have a more unique force that is very compatible with the game. Win for me, loss for GW.
5: The local GW store (the first I've ever lived close to) only has one table, and bad hours for gaming. So I only ever go in there if I run out of a specific wash that I have trouble making myself. So with no reasons to go in there I spend ~$6 twice a year or so. I spend hundreds at another FLGS, because its bigger than a closet.

This is getting too long. Bottom line, because GW is getting out of the hobby aspect, I spend 70% less on their product. Not as a protest or anything, I just don't HAVE to buy GW anymore, because there are less incentives now.

@Creeping Dementia-he covered it exactly.

GW had everything: all elements of the hobby covered with no need to buy anything else since they have a product for everything.

Then have players play in a space you control, with models you make, with tools you supply.

Set up the play space like Las Vegas minus the alcohol and you have a money making machine.You make the players drink the cool-aid and all is well.

It is like they turned away specifically from everything that worked. Very confusing.

the bottom line for me is GW thinks they are in total control of a simple situation. They couldnt be farther from the truth. with GW abandoning the gaming aspect of the fact they are a game company i dont feel i owe them anything. in fact if they want my business they need to earn it

as has been stated already, there are other solutions to GW.. i will not buy from them directly in any way.. if i can not buy it from my local indy store i buy it online or from a new sculptor

i dont owe GW anything

Rle68 wrote:
with GW abandoning the gaming aspect of the fact they are a game company i dont feel i owe them anything.

They're not. The gaming aspect of the hobby being done in stores is a very American thing. The rest of the world primarily does it at home or in organised clubs. They're just applying their attitude in the rest of the world to the American playerbase.

 -Loki- wrote:

Rle68 wrote:
with GW abandoning the gaming aspect of the fact they are a game company i dont feel i owe them anything.

They're not. The gaming aspect of the hobby being done in stores is a very American thing. The rest of the world primarily does it at home or in organised clubs. They're just applying their attitude in the rest of the world to the American playerbase.

and its going to cost them dearly.. sorry, what works across the pond and in the eurozone doesnt work here...kids dont play warhammer.. they play x box/ nintendo more adults play than anything else

Rle68 wrote:
and its going to cost them dearly.. sorry, what works across the pond and in the eurozone doesnt work here...

This.

Smart companies adapt their policies to each different market.

Stupid companies insist that the market adapt to their universal policies.

We see more and more what kind of company GW is.

Orktavius wrote:
A strawman seems appropriate for a chicken little thread..... So Sue me.

Like I said, I'm only commenting on the bunkers, that LA bunker would have to move mountains of product to cover the rent on a space that size where it is/was.

One thing that I do know is about the yearly quota's that each store has to produce. The problem is that battle bunkers, even though (many) run in the black, because of GW's current business model they are not making enough profit to keep them a viable option. Employees + benefits reduction are what is the current norm for profitability and they have been downsizing (including the CEO which saved GW 400000 pounds in yearly salary) in all departments for three years.

I also know at least in my current area that the one man stores are not so profitable as lead on by corporate. Within 4 years all managers within my area have been let go because of not meeting their profit goals. These managers were good ones, but the current pressure being applied to store managers to sell product, is at best, a most difficult venture to endeavor.

The current business revenue streaming process was implemented back in 2010. I believe one man stores will become is a hub for direct only product for all of the important items. Gaming? Only to get the sheeple hooked on plastic crack and send them on their way.

It's too bad that the corporation is pricing themselves from the average hobbyist to get into. But I also predict the financial report will again show profit. That is until you do some forensic accounting and then you get a real picture on how things are going.

 -Loki- wrote:

Rle68 wrote:
with GW abandoning the gaming aspect of the fact they are a game company i dont feel i owe them anything.

They're not. The gaming aspect of the hobby being done in stores is a very American thing. The rest of the world primarily does it at home or in organised clubs. They're just applying their attitude in the rest of the world to the American playerbase.

Well no... it's a very British thing, too. From recent sampling, majority of British stores have some or even lots of gaming.

It looks like they are struggling for ideas for proper growth. Which is odd considering the Hobby industry is showing so much growth itself.

It could be a sign of the management structure pretty much all being insular and internally sourced struggle and policy dictated from a single place wont help if no one can challenge stupid ideas.

 Redbeard wrote:
We're expecting Chicago to shut its doors in October.

This strikes me as no great loss.

I've only been to an actual GWS store twice; as there isn't one within 100 miles of me. Both trips were to the Chicago bunker.

The first time I went was about 3 years ago, and it was to the Chicago bunker while on my way to somewhere else. I thought it was amazing. There were all these incredible tables everywhere, and display cabinets all over the place. So many awesome miniatures to see, merchandise was everywhere. They had painting stations here and there, and had some WIP models up. They had some (but not all) Forge World stuff. The staff was friendly and outgoing - I got a lot of "so what army do you play" type conversation starters, but it wasn't so much as to be off-putting (and I expected that from previous posters here) I had a very limited budget as I needed my money for the actual destination of my trip, and still wound up spending around $200 because it was just so awesome seeing all this stuff.

The second time was about a year ago, when we decided to go to IKEA to get some display cases for my warhams. In this case, the situation was much, much different: I had plenty of money to spend on Warhams and this was in fact, half the point of the trip.

When I got to the store, they had essentially stripped it, it looked like it was the friday of a week long going out of business sale. 3/4ths of the store was empty, and what remained was crammed into the forward quarter. All the display cases were gone. The tables had been replaced with unpainted ROBB boards with a few unpainted ruins on each, and there were only like 3 tables. The selection of merchandise was awful - I had wanted to get 9 of the new finecast Necron characters, since I could open them in the store and look at them; an opportunity I never have... and they only had a single one of the ones I wanted in stock (and they had just come out!). I dragged my wife in there because I had been talking about how amazing the store was for around 2 years, and she looked at me like I was smoking crack and went back to the car.

I wound up buying a single paint brush from the guy who was working there. I asked about the other stuff, and he had no real idea; he intimated to me that he had only been working there about a week.

The whole experience was incredibly depressing. I think back on that place with sorrow.

 -Loki- wrote:

Rle68 wrote:
with GW abandoning the gaming aspect of the fact they are a game company i dont feel i owe them anything.

They're not. The gaming aspect of the hobby being done in stores is a very American thing. The rest of the world primarily does it at home or in organised clubs. They're just applying their attitude in the rest of the world to the American playerbase.

That is not true.

It may be true for the UK, but for the rest of the Euro countries that I'm familiar with (Portugal, Spain, France), the vast majority of table top gaming takes place in FLGSs and some clubs.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

Rle68 wrote:
with GW abandoning the gaming aspect of the fact they are a game company i dont feel i owe them anything.

They're not. The gaming aspect of the hobby being done in stores is a very American thing. The rest of the world primarily does it at home or in organised clubs. They're just applying their attitude in the rest of the world to the American playerbase.

Well no... it's a very British thing, too. From recent sampling, majority of British stores have some or even lots of gaming.

I've visited the games workshops in Derby, Leicester and Nottingham, and none of them have allowed casual gaming. So I guess no one in the east Midlands plays 40k?

How sad. DO you mean they don't let you play even if you phone up to arrange something?

AS mentioned, we've been in Cambridge, Truro, Hull, Bluewater since April and they all have games, we couldn't get a slot in Lincoln but I've since been told there's still gaming there.