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Hi everyone, i am new to Dakka Dakka but have been doing 40K and scale modelling many years now

Recently i have bought myself a storm eagle to equip my Ultramarines and after preparing all the resin pieces, removing the flash, cleaning them and straightening them i found they dont fit together. even with the use copious use of green stuff and plasticard i still cant get them to fit, particularly the bulkhead and side wall, also i found the internal detail to be a bit lacking. It occured to me that i can use a CAD programme to create the resin pieces in 3D then get a injection mold made and turn them into a full kit. Now i am aware that custom injection mold tooling is very expensive but i have had thoughts of turning it into a buisness.

Now onto resin casting, using a 3D scanner, CAD software and a 3D printer( for masters) to create resin upgrade pieces for space marines, things like different arms, legs, heads high detail torso pieces with chapter specific iconongraphy. I am a big fan of the ultramarines and having seen the ultramarines movie and the space marine game i wont my ultramarines to look like the ones we see in those with lots of chapter symbols and such. Problem is i have no idea where or how to begin. I want to avoid having air bubbles, shrinkage and warping of the pieces and so would likely use so sort of vaccum or preasure forming.

Eventually i would like to go bigger and make detail up kits for vehicles include injection molded extra armour and dozer blades

If anyone can offer advice or tips it would be most appreciated.

Also i am aware of GW view of aftermarket companies, and basicly i would not be making these for profit, just for other fans at cost price. ( for the time being)

Keep in mind that 3D printers won't have the resolution you need for high detail pieces typically. Anything that DOES have that resolution is going to cost an arm and a leg(a few thousand bucks).

I don't have any experiance casting stuff.

However if you think the parts you got were defective you should contact GW customer support. They will supply you with a replacement.

I've been dabbling with Resin casting for the last year. First bit of advice: be ready to loose A LOT of money in learning how to do it well. You're absolutely not going to get good casts 100% of the time. Period. There will be air bubbles. The resin will be too thick. The mold will be made incorrectly. The resin won't dry properly. ect ect ect. The list of ways I've messed up in my efforts in a mile long and I still haven't really haven't gotten it to a point I am happy with.

you can look at my blog for my insights on my efforts.

==> the Resurrected Hobbyist

A couple posts of interest on the subject:
So what does 2 quarts of resin get you?
288 lego bricks.... 3 quarts of silocone rubber... 2 pounds of synthetic silicone clay... a couple ounces of silicone ethal spray... 3 ceramic tiles...
Thought I'd Provide some information

Let me start with: I am sorry if my post sounds patronizing, I don't mean it to be, but I didn't see any info about your background.

You certainly are talking about a big investment. I speak from quite extensive experience, I am a pattern maker by trade (the sort that makes injection, investment, blow, vacuum molds and patterns) I have dealt with everything from plastic and metals to urethane, epoxies and a few very exotic materials. I am also a uni qualified Industrial Designer who has also made extensive use of rapid prototypes and 3D scanners (nothing like hanging 30m above a coal crusher to scan some rusty piece of junk only so I can tell BHP that its stuffed and they need a new one). Anyway enough prattle about me.....

It costs a lot to get into what you are thinking of doing. The resin is not cheap and can be very temperamental if not treated right, are you intending on silicone molds? Or maybe epoxy to start? You will need to consider things such as joint lines, draft angle, undercuts, pour points and maybe sprues. For thicker sections you will also need to worry about some form of riser to "feed" the material as it cures.

In the equipment stakes you will need a vacuum degas chamber, plus a pressure chamber to try and get the air bubbles to be as small as possible, trust me that mixing degassing (to get the air out), then pouring AND then getting it into a pressure pot all within the pot life (read working time) of a resin is quite an art form.

Then there are the 3D considerations, what 3D software do you have or would like? Even the basic stuff can be a pain to learn or gets expensive quickly to buy anything. The 3D scanner alone is in the thousands for a simple one and it needs some sort of software too. 3D printers (the cheap ones) struggle to reproduce great detail and therefore would need a LOT of rework (filling, sanding, etc) to make them usable as a master. May be quicker and cheaper to sculpt from scratch.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, I have been in this industry for a long time and have seen many that would like to try. I don't mean to come across negative but I figure I should see if I can at least warn you. If you want some more info or tips I am more than willing to share. Let me know.

Thanks, good to have someone with experience in the field.

As for 3D CAD software i use sketchup pro at the momment, as for 3D scanners i was planning on getting one of these: http://store.3dprintingsystems.com/3D_Scanning/3D_Scanner_Kit
As for resin, i had no idea it was so tempermental to use, bit of a bummer too as it wasnt just 40K stuff i wanted to make outa resin, there are some scale ship components i was planning on making too.

How much would it cost to just get a custom tooled injection mold made up, even somewhere cheap like china?

As for long term plans, yes it is a big investment without a doubt, but i had thought i running it as a buisness from home and getting a loan from a bank to get the proccess rolling. I have no doubt GW would take a dim view of this, but maybe, just maybe, negoiations could be had?
Only reason i came up with the idea is because i was so put off about how much trouble i had had with the FW resin kits.

Have a look at the Chapter House Studios thread in Dakka Discussion.

In a nutshell, GW tried to sue CHS for making add on bits to GW kits.

They have largely failed, where they did succeed was mainly in the realm of whole models that were clearly heavily 'inspired' by existing GW artwork.

Things are still muddy as there hasn't been a final ruling, but by and large its looking like that you wouldn't need to worry about GW or negotiations as long as you were making your own stuff that happened to fit on to some of their kits.

IANAL but things should be clearer when the judge makes his final ruling soon.

Speaking on the business side of things, obtaining a loan from the bank would be incredibly difficult to start off this business, have you got any past credit history, loans or business ownership? These are all basic questions the bank will be asking you.

GW has an almost no tolerance view of anything even remotely similar to their product, however, you may want to have a look at the recent court-case v. Chapterhouse, if all goes well for Chapterhouse you may feel a litter safer going into these things.

If you are sincere about this idea, you will need to look all this up yourself and look at the feasibility of the venture, because you can put yourself in a really bad spot, really quickly without doing thorough research. You won't be able to just take someones word on pricing via a forum, you'd need to find out directly from the source.

Sorry for sounding negative, but it's the reality of things.

As Ma55ter_fett has said, if you think the parts are defective contact them and they will ship replacement parts.

There are a lot of amazing technologies that are becoming cost effective for the home hobbyist. Be careful with a 3D scanner that it is compatible with your software, it has the require resolution and your computer can handle the file size of the scan (which depending upon the resolution and size can be HUGE)

It can be hard to determine the cost of an injection molding tool without knowing what sort of shape you wanted to reproduce. If it is a simple 2 part mold (ie. no cores required) and the size of the overall die is about 200mm square would probably set you back about $1000+ which will rise sharply as the level of detail and number of cavities increase (add about 75% if you are getting it done in Australia) there will also be a delivery and duty charge (the duty can be quite high if Customs think it is for business purposes). However, my experiences with China is they do NOT like to export the tooling, they only want to manufacture parts. You could have issue also with them wanting to run off 10,000 parts which could cost you 2 to 3000 of which you will never use all the parts.

If you want short run stuff get it made in Australia and find a toolmaker willing to absorb the cost of an aluminum tool (cheaper) across the number of parts you want, but don't be surprised if no one wants to do a run less than 1000. The smallest runs I ever did were 500 parts but each part was 400mm square so it was a heap of material anyway. The reason hobbyists go down the resin route is it is far more cost effective for short runs of small components (less than 250 parts).

I doubt Games Workshop would negotiate at all. If you touch there IP they have a case against you which is their right, I don't agree with how they deal with conversion part manufacturers or how lawyer happy they seem to be, but they have money and the right to try and protect their copyright.

However, as long as it isn't a direct rip off, nor you advertise it specifically for their stuff then you could like a lot of the others out there fly under their radar.

My advice is start small. Buy some silicone to make some molds. You may even be able to convince a supplier to give you some material as a "trial" and have a go at casting a mold. Then try to cast it in something, It may sound insane, but to get a feel for casting use chocolate mixed with some oil to thin it down and pour that into a mold, it will very closely match how a lot of resins behave (pot life, viscosity, air locks etc) just if you wanted to eat your chocolate space marine make sure your silicone is a food grade/safe type.

Hmm, well thanks for the heads up guys. I have found 2 local injection mould tool makers and will probably get in touch with them tomorrow 12/7/13 to get quotes. I have been trying to follow the chapter house V GW story and am eager to see what the outcome is. What if you openly have items that are meant for GW products, how do you get round that leagly, E.G. chapter house's Storm Raven Extension kit, which is awesome, is clearly for a GW product, same as the iconoclast land Raider conversion.

Still i am going to push forward with this, as i think there is a potential market. ideally i would like GW, perhaps for a cut of any profits, to work with me, but i doubt that will ever happen.

These are the websites of the companies: http://www.afaridan.com.au/
http://www.plasmo.com.au/

Still i am going to push forward with this, as i think there is a potential market. ideally i would like GW, perhaps for a cut of any profits, to work with me, but i doubt that will ever happen.

Letting them know your presence may be more detrimental than just not contacting them at all. It's pretty obvious at this point the GW doesn't want to share, so asking them in any way would probably result in a no or a huge % of what you earn.

As far as the Chapterhouse case goes, if they win, it looks like you may able to create items that are specifically made to fit GW products. When the case is fully settled, have a look at all the rules for all the different products and see which ones are ok and which arn't.

It's great to know you are getting quotes and doing further research, hope it all goes well.

 azreal13 wrote:
Have a look at the Chapter House Studios thread in Dakka Discussion.

In a nutshell, GW tried to sue CHS for making add on bits to GW kits.

They have largely failed, where they did succeed was mainly in the realm of whole models that were clearly heavily 'inspired' by existing GW artwork.

Things are still muddy as there hasn't been a final ruling, but by and large its looking like that you wouldn't need to worry about GW or negotiations as long as you were making your own stuff that happened to fit on to some of their kits.

IANAL but things should be clearer when the judge makes his final ruling soon.

Stop being such a scaremonger!

There are a ton of accessory and "not-XXXXX" miniature makers that make any number of items for GW kits. Where CH fethed up was being so blatant as to use GW terminology and then also just plain copy GW models (Farseer etc). So basically they drew attention to themselves and then crossed the line, any laymen could see this from a mile off.

OP you can make whatever you like and sell it if there is a market, just don't copy or use GW trademarks on your website - look on their website for GWs version of what they will and will not pursue if you are worried. You can show your own GW models with your bits attached with no bother, just done call it a "Warhammer 40,000 Space Marine Stormbird accessory kit" when "Future Dropship Accessory kit" would be more appropriate. People seem to behave like no one made anything before CH started selling bits many have and have done so without any problems from GW.

Re offering a cut of your profits, don't bother. That would require a licencing agreement, three problems with this;
1) GW do not Licence miniature products - why would they when making miniatures is what they do!
2) Sending a company $X per annum or Quarter never works so any license would be agreed with payment in advance in full
3) A license would cost many Hundred of thousands of pounds, more likely millions and not a % of each model you sell. And this would be whether you sell anything or not in advance. I seem to remember that GW took £5M into their accounts in the last report I saw for the Computer games and FFG licences.

That said I would contact GW (after reading their terms and conditions) and ask whether there would be an issue in what you are producing before any major out lay. They are by all accounts quite helpful in determining what they would consider infringing (note they will naturally be biased toward protecting their brand so my overstate their position). So give them a bell and sound them out.

Thanks for all the info guys, i will certainly keep you updated as to how it goes, hopefully well, and i will also keep tabs on the CH case, finger crossed.

Hey guys

After much research i am a few steps closer to my goal. I am now looking at purchasing a 3D scanner, a Hi-Def or using services suches as these: http://maxmini3d.eu/?paged=2 to make my masters. Using the masters i will create a round mold in rubber and a spin casting machine in a vaccum chamber to achieve what i looking to do. I have also got a amertuer 3D designer to work with me to create the 3D mesh masters.

It should go well and is s damn site cheaper than injection molding.

I still think that The Prop Builder's Guide to Molding and Casting is the best place for a beginner to start to learn about the molding/casting process.

It's also worth checking out the videos of Alumilite and Brick in the Yard Molding Supply.

Hey guys, still researching this, financial restrictions and packing for moving across the country, it is slow going. I am convinced that resin casting is the answer to my problems, particularly now that i am looking to diversify not only out of 40k subject matter, but also the variety of space marine parts available to me. As opposed to buying lots of kits just for a few parts, i can use the parts once as masters for resin molds. In terms of actual casting, it seems to me that in order to ensure the best possible quality of the parts to use a 3 stage casting process.

Stage 1: Coat the mold with a light coating of talc powder
Stage 2: Preasure injection into the mold using this: http://www.fortleader.com/rip.html or something similar
Stage 3: Place the mold in a sealed centrifugal spinner that is in vacuum.

This way i can ensure the best possible quality.

Whats your opinion?

From what i have seen it not hard to create a vacuum chamber and having a centrifugal spinner is just as easy and can be bought ready to use. Place one inside a large enough vacuum chamber, and BOOM!

The quality of the resin and how it is mixed as well as viscosity, and cure time will all affect quality.

I the mold is made correctly, and vacuum degassing used just a straight pour should net good results. I make my own custom 15mm terrain from masters and I've tried several resin/rubber but all I use now is Smooth-On.

You can't really "pressure cast" or "inject rubber molds. Unless you can maintain the pressure throughout the cure process.

Also agitating the resin once poured is BAAD! A Vacuum will make any air trapped inside expand. Example when I first started a friend was helping me.
We had used a drier (set the mold on top and threw in some wet shoes) to vibrate the rubber mold and release air bubbles.

He tried the same with resin cast into the rubber. The result was a very bubbly cast that was useless. It was like a honeycomb structure with no strength.

A centirfuge IE spin caster only works because it's designed to spin, and then pour in the metal/resin. However if the air has nowhere to go it will still be trapped.

If you notice a spin caster has a shield around it to catch flying molten metal globs because there are air relief cuts in there to allow air to escape.

Metal cools quickly and these holes clog once the air is released along with the first bit of metal poured.

Resin has a 15+ minute cure time. You would simply be slinging resin everywhere and pouring for 15 minutes.

So air bubbles are just part of resin. You get some green putty and fix them in like 5 minutes. Warping is caused by taking the parts out of the mold before they are fully cured.

Also putting them in a pressure pot can distort the mold itself causing problems since no matter what you do it too will have air bubbles inside of it.

So design the mold right. degass then pour rubber or use the shake on top of a vibrating table method for us poor boys. Use a high quality resin, mix accurately each time with minimum agitation, and then pour.
Talcum powder helps I use mold release spray myself.

In short done right all you need is rubber, resin, mold release, and patience. Expect to burn $100+ in wasted rubber and resin just learning how not to make a mold.

You can spincast resin, and I do spincast resin from time to time in the exact same molds I use for spincasting metal. All of my molds vent to the inside, and the only time metal flies out is if for some reason the mold isnt seated correctly.

The resin I use has a short pot life though...around 5 minutes. This gives me time to mix it and pour but keeps me from having to leave it spinning for 20 minutes before I can demold. Most industrial resin spincasters have a heating element built into them that heats the mold to kick the resin. Something like a Nicem C400-R.

If you really think you will be doing volume production, gravity (or even pressure pots) is a poor way to do it. Investing in a machine to spincast the resin and an automatic mixer is the way to go.

Hand casting is cheaper to get started though, and certain things like large items are difficult to do on a spin cast mold.

Check out resinaddict.com forums as well.

Quite a few industry people and other hobbyists like yourself - and there's a lot of pooled knowledge there.

Most importantly, many of them are aussies, like us, so their suggestions on casting and moulding materials, tools and stuff will probably be closer to home.