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Hi all, I'd appreciate some commentary on the following list:

HQ: Spiritseer 70
TR: 5 Wraithguard with D-Scythes, Wave Serpent with Scatterlaser, Holofields 345
TR: 5 Wraithguard, Wave Serpent with Scatterlaser, Holofields 295
TR: 10 Guardian Defenders, Shuriken Cannon, Wave Serpent with Scatterlaser, Holofields 240
TR: 10 Guardian Defenders, Shuriken Cannon, Wave Serpent with Scatterlaser, Holofields 240
TR: 10 Guardian Defenders, Shuriken Cannon, Wave Serpent with Scatterlaser, Holofields 240
HS: 2 War Walkers 140
HS: 2 War Walkers 140
HS: 2 War Walkers 140

Total: 1850

What I would like commentary on is my intention of filling the Serpents with Guardians instead of the more typical Dire Avengers. After running some numbers, Avengers appear to have two relevant advantages over Guardians. First, they are cheaper, and therefore allow more Serpents to be fielded. Second, their guns have a 6" range advantage. If the range difference isn't relevant, the Guardians dish out substantially more firepower; about 33% more on a per-point basis. Including the Shuriken Cannon also helps a tad with the range issue. They are also more resilient in general, again, even accounting for the point differential.

Now, there is no way to fit a sixth Serpent into this list without cutting War Walkers or Wraithguard. I don't want to do either, as War Walkers are pretty obviously something you want to take in large numbers, and I think the Wraithguard make the list a lot more well-rounded. So, should I still consider using Dire Avengers as cargo, and if so, what should I do with the extra points? I have zero experience playing Eldar, and I suspect the range difference won't be sufficient to make the Avengers a better choice, but I know most experienced Eldar players are running with the DAs and I'd appreciate the opportunity to learn from others' experience before I start buying stuff.

Its a solid list.

This is scarily close to something I've been considering at 1650 its flexible enough to deal with most things and will keep things interesting, I predict there will be a lot of mech guardians hitting the tables soon.

Did you actually buy and paint 5 Wave Serpents? Holy guacamole

I have yet to buy anything. I want to know what the plan is before I leap.

Still, it isn't that hard to paint 5 transports. In 5th edition, I ran a 13 vehicle Blood Angels army which took me roughly 4 months from start to finish.

Ok, it isn't hard, but doesn't it get boring? Painting the same chassis, over and over again, warhammer is as much about the enjoyment of gluing and painting as it is the game.

What weapons on the War Walkers? My advice is 2 squads with double BL and one with SC+SL.

What's your plan against flyers?

I'd consider dropping a couple of chin cannons to get vectored engines on the D-Scythe Serpent. Really helps with their threat range.

looks pretty solid.
I personally prefer these new wraithguard over guardians anyday, but since your about the serpent spam I think the list is pretty ideal for what your trying to accomplish.

 FlingitNow wrote:
What weapons on the War Walkers? My advice is 2 squads with double BL and one with SC+SL.

What's your plan against flyers?

I'd consider dropping a couple of chin cannons to get vectored engines on the D-Scythe Serpent. Really helps with their threat range.

The Cannons are in the Guardian squads. I plan to run BL/SL on all War Walkers. I've hammered it out, and that seems to be the best combo against armor, with the exception of BL/BL being better against high AV.

As for Flyers, all the firepower in the list roughly averages 3 Hull Points per turn against AV12 Flyers. That's assuming no rear shots. So the plan will be to use my mobility to get rear shots where I can, and fire at AV12 only when I need to finish something off. I might drop the D-Scythes to throw some Vectored Engines around to help with this plan, pending playtesting.

So essentially you're taking SL+BL because it is the 2nd best option for you? Why not just take the better option? Against your list AV10-11 is dead regardless of weapons on your Walkers. So why not go double BL for the superior results against AV12-14?

Vectored Engines doesn't really help get rear armour shots as you pivot after shooting. Plus you can pivot freely anyway. Vectored Engines give your transported units extra threat range as you can show your back to the enemy to disembark and thenpivot back so they don't get rear shots on your Serpent.

I would keep the D-Scythes, they are brutal. I would therefore drop 1 shuriken cannon for vectored engines on the D-Scythe Serpent.

Your plan for flyers will work against some armies though I fear for you against Necrons, who'll have 6+ flyers at this point level and their flyers are probably the there is at taking out Serpents.

Good points.

Vectored Engines do help a bit with getting rear armor, as they let you face towards the front once you're done shooting.

I agree that Necrons are a concern. Luckily, a Wave Serpent averages about 1.33 Hull Points against AV11 without Jink, about 1.25 with it. So the Serpents alone can down at least 1 Night Scythe a turn, and the Necron player has to be worried that I'll get 2.

At any rate, I will certainly consider your suggestions, and happily it's all stuff that won't affect my purchases. I appreciate the advice.

Ok, this isn't quite what I expected from a WS Spam list and personally I'd run it quite differently. Personally, I'd rather run some of them as Fire Prisms.

Let's say your opponent brings a Land Raider/Leman Russ/Monolith(lol) or two. They down your WS with the Wraithguard and suddenly you're kinda SOL.

HQ
Farseer

Elites
6 Fire Dragons + Wave Serpent w/ TL Scatter Lasers+Holo-fields
5 Fire Dragons + Wave Serpent w/ TL Scatter Lasers+Holo-fields

Troops
7 Dire Avengers + Wave Serpent w/ TL Scatter Lasers
7 Dire Avengers + Wave Serpent w/ TL Scatter Lasers
6 Dire Avengers + Wave Serpent w/ TL Scatter Lasers
6 Dire Avengers + Wave Serpent w/ TL Scatter Lasers

Heavy Support
Fire Prism + Holo-Fields
Fire Prism + Holo-Fields
Fire Prism + Holo-Fields


9 Tanks out on the field, 6 of which are Wave Serpents and you've got all the bases covered.

Hordes? You've got essentially 8.5 TL shots per Wave Serpent, 4.5 of which are Ignores Cover. Plus 3 large blasts. AND you still get 52 Shurikens?
MEQ? 3 Large blasts? Plus massed pseudo-rending? Niiiiice. Whats that? You took Psychic Shriek and Prescience? Sucks to be you guys.
AV 13/14? It's a shame you only have 3 S9 Lances and 11 Meltaguns =(

Felixander to be honest that list looks like it was lifted from the last book.

Fire Dragons are too expensive to use as throw away units. Farseer in a Serpent achieved nothing. Put him on a bike or drop him as you don't need guide and prescience in that list.

Units of 7 DAs?!? They are now more expensive than the 10 guardians that you'd want them to be...

No Holo's on Wave Serpents makes me sad.

HQ: Spiritseer 70
TR: 5 Wraithguard with D-Scythes, Wave Serpent with Scatterlaser, Holofields 345
TR: 5 Wraithguard, Wave Serpent with Scatterlaser, Holofields 295
TR: 10 Guardian Defenders, Shuriken Cannon, Wave Serpent with Scatterlaser, Holofields 240
TR: 10 Guardian Defenders, Shuriken Cannon, Wave Serpent with Scatterlaser, Holofields 240
TR: 10 Guardian Defenders, Shuriken Cannon, Wave Serpent with Scatterlaser, Holofields 240
HS: 2 War Walkers 140
HS: 2 War Walkers 140
HS: 2 War Walkers 140

This list looks very good. How about the loadout of the Warwalkers? Standard shuricannons are too short ranged.

Although War Walkers are really good (great firepower), when I run this sort of list, I like to make sure everything can't be hurt by small arms (at least until they leave the transports). If you do run them, I might use longer ranged weapons so they don't get killed by small arms, so at least they need to bear heavy weapons onto them.

Last time I ran it, I went with 5 Serpents, 2 Prisms and a Nightspinner (2000 points though). I have considered running a Wraithknight, as it requires similar sorts of weapons to the tanks to bring down.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Felixander to be honest that list looks like it was lifted from the last book.

Fire Dragons are too expensive to use as throw away units. Farseer in a Serpent achieved nothing. Put him on a bike or drop him as you don't need guide and prescience in that list.

Units of 7 DAs?!? They are now more expensive than the 10 guardians that you'd want them to be...

No Holo's on Wave Serpents makes me sad.

I shoulda mentioned that I run Stormwind, so I kinda have to take Dire Avengers =( Their extra range and armor has helped me a ton though over Guardians. Fire Dragons are really expensive, yes. But I've never had them not make back their points, though I usually only run one squad. I try to get Holo-Fields on every tank, but that could be done by swapping out the 6 FD unit for another Dire Avenger one, I just happen to only have 27 Dire Avengers.

I prefer the Farseer usually because Psychic Shriek is pretty great and a chance to get a 6 on that table is devastating.

I agree that the list actually could be improved the more I look at it, but I still think Fire Prisms + Holo-Fields > 2 War Walkers for versatility.