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 techsoldaten wrote:
I have the book. AMA

Hounds of Abaddon are pure fluff. There is a page like that for each of the Gods, I think they are trying to get people to paint things up in something besides black.

The only restrictions on artefact mixing are same character.

The terminator buff is +1WS and +1BS for 6 points per model.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the warlord traits are not so bad. You can get stubborn, instant death, it will not die, or preferred enemy on 4 of the six rolls. The other items are a one time use shooting attack and rerolls on chaos boon tables.

I could see taking one of these.

Since you have it, would you mind giving us a detailed rundown of it? I'm sure it would be greatly appreciated!

abadizzle over at Bolt&Chain posted some details on the Artifacts:

----------------------------------------------------------------
S: user ap3 daemon weapon melee
+1 I
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-1 T (yep... -1 T)
Re-roll ones for invuln saves

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Psyker only-
Warp charge 1-3 each charge after the first extends range by 6"
Nova
Range 6"
S 4
Ap 5
Assault 2d6
Blind
Ignore cover

If you fail your psychic test when using two+ warp charge goodbye
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One use
Range: infinite
Strength 5
Ap 4
Heavy 1
Large blast
Ignores cover
Instead of making armor pen rolls models with armor values take d3 penetrating hits
----------------------------------------------------------------



eternal warrior and adamantium will
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hand of darkness as per iPad teaser

 Sasori wrote:
For Artifacts not mixing, is it like the Iyanden book, where you can't mix on the same character, or is it more restrictive in that you can either have Artifacts from one book or the other?

Please tell me the Hounds of Abaddon are a new unit and not just fluff for Chosen with the MoK..

Doesn't look like it, with the following quote:

ust had a quick flip through the new artefacts are neat as are warlord traits. Can ally with c:csm and chosen are troops by default. Votlw mandatory and if taking abaddon, one unit of termies can get +1 ws and bs for a price. No new units or characters

.

units in a BL suppliment cant take the codex artifacts

mmmm there's a big fluff section, a section with pictures of models, and a section with rules and missions.

The fluff is pretty much in line with what already exists. It talks a lot about Abaddon going on walkabout after the retreat to the Eye of Terror, and lays out a lot of detail about Black Crusades. It's kind of tedious reading through all of this.

The models are the models, it's like bigger pictures of everything in the Codex. There's nothing new there, really, except most things are painted black. The DV models look pretty nice.

On thing about the models: at this size, you can really see how people picked out the details. Could be useful for painters looking to do exactly what they do in the books.

The rules are laid out the same way as what's in the Eldar book. A short description about the changes to the FOC, talk about the terminators and the elites, then the warlord traits and the artefacts.

Each of the artefacts is kind of cool, but yeah, they are expensive.

- The Crucible of Lies lets you trade one point of T for rerolls for invulnerable saves of 1.

- The Spineshiver blade is a Daemon weapon that gives you +1 I.

- The Last Memory of Yuranthos gives you one more psychic level plus a Nova blast power that is kind of meh. S4 AP 5 and the range expands the more psychic points you put into it.

- The Eye of Night lets you shoot a large blast weapon, but it's heavy and it's S5 AP 4.

- The Skull of Kerngar gives you eternal warrior and adamantium will.

- The hand of darkness, well, it's a power fist that strikes at initiative and does instant death.

Past that, there are city of death strategems, planetstrike strategems, altar of war missions, and echoes of war missions. Some of them are interesting.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is one other section to point out, it's at the start of the "Black Crusades" section. It gives advice on how to compose your force.

So, there's 3 ways they think you should run a Black Legion army:

1) Buy a ton of CSMs. Quote: "The humble Chaos Space Marine unit is often overlooked in preference to its more specialist counterparts."

2) Buy a big unit of Chosen. Talks about how icons multiply their tabletop efficiency.

3) Buy the upgraded Terminators. Calls them undisputed terrors, heart of any attack, unleashing their fury, etc. Mentions that 2 units of 10 terminators basely costs half your points total in a 1500 point game.

 TheDevo wrote:
abadizzle over at Bolt&Chain posted some details on the Artifacts:

Worst artifacts ever

Hand of darkness as per iPad teaser

The fact that this was a big miss on GW's part isn't surprising given how they weren't going to support it with any new model releases (the least they could have done was do a new Abbadon model, that thing is ancient).

This alongside the fact that this was a supplement for the Black Legion of all things shows how they couldn't really have done much to represent it better to begin with. The one thing they could have really done to bring uniqueness to the book which would be being able to take the 4 chosen of abbadon with either rule-sets similar to that of Farsight's commanders if you took Abby but NOPE.

At this point it's just milking the amount of Heldrakes they can sell from people abusing the allies system. Oh joy. As if CSM players didn't have it hard enough as is with competitive variety.

Was there a point in even making this? Really they love to phone it in for chaos nowadays. I can't even make a joke how they outsourced this to a mailroom troll because I'm sure he or she would put in a more spirited effort.

Dravenguild wrote:
Was there a point in even making this? Really they love to phone it in for chaos nowadays. I can't even make a joke how they outsourced this to a mailroom troll because I'm sure he or she would put in a more spirited effort.

Yeah..C:SM is going to be far away better with the chapter tactics alone..

Sounds pretty disappointing to me. I wont buy it. Hopefully if they do any other chaos supplements they do something to at least buff Chaos a bit.

Thanks Gdub. Saved me some money there.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Dravenguild wrote:
Was there a point in even making this? Really they love to phone it in for chaos nowadays. I can't even make a joke how they outsourced this to a mailroom troll because I'm sure he or she would put in a more spirited effort.

Yeah..C:SM is going to be far away better with the chapter tactics alone..

And I get the feeling that this was the reason for centurions and chapter tactics, rather than give us a deserving codex that isn't crutched up by a goatse dragon they incorporated these elements to placate chagrined chaos players to swap out codexes. Killing two birds with one stone, GW doesn't have to put effort into chaos and space marines still make money.

4 hell turkeys in 1500 points . Just take a second to think about that .

 aceface wrote:
4 hell turkeys in 1500 points . Just take a second to think about that .

As a pure Nurgle player I use ground troops only.

 Breotan wrote:

 unmercifulconker wrote:
I am pretty sure Legion was meant to be Templars but easy mistake, right?...... Right?

No. Unless, if by Templars you mean Bretonnians then... still NO. Man, WHFB has been getting some serious neglect this year.

You call what fantasy is getting neglect?!Try getting one page screaming how good this new Bilbo is and then tell me about neglect.

Well that's immensely disappointing. Any word on what the missions are like? Do they redeem the supplement in anyway?

Looks like peoples' fears that this book wouldn't be able to add anything because Codex: CSM already represents the Black Legion fine enough (rules-wise, at least) were correct. As brought up before, this book is even worse for that when it comes to the rules (really, since when was every member of the Black Legion a veteran of the Long War? Not only the book itself, but hte Word Bearers' novels state that the Black Legion is so huge cause they keep recruiting NEW people).

Still, at least it gave a fluff description about how cult units are organized within the Black Legion, I guess.

How on earth does the ally thing work? seems You are very limited to make even an allied attachment with this supplement. Or does it just work as normal but if you use any of the new rules, it forces you to count them as allies?

example, if they are allies they need 1 HQ and 2 troop, the only HQ official mentioned in supplement is abby so has to be him rendering the chosen as troops without abby a bit inert considering you have to take chosen as a troop choice if supplement is counted as an ally book making units between codex and supplement. ?!?!

Von Marlon wrote:
How on earth does the ally thing work? seems You are very limited to make even an allied attachment with this supplement. Or does it just work as normal but if you use any of the new rules, it forces you to count them as allies?

Um, Black Legion and Chaos Space Marines are counted as separate army lists and they can ally as Battle Brothers, with either one or the other being the primary detachment.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Von Marlon wrote:
How on earth does the ally thing work? seems You are very limited to make even an allied attachment with this supplement. Or does it just work as normal but if you use any of the new rules, it forces you to count them as allies?

Um, Black Legion and Chaos Space Marines are counted as separate army lists and they can ally as Battle Brothers, with either one or the other being the primary detachment.

So if BL supplement is basically an ally book and there for separate from codex, what choice of units does that give you for them?

Von Marlon wrote:
How on earth does the ally thing work? seems You are very limited to make even an allied attachment with this supplement. Or does it just work as normal but if you use any of the new rules, it forces you to count them as allies?

example, if they are allies they need 1 HQ and 2 troop, the only HQ official mentioned in supplement is abby so has to be him rendering the chosen as troops without abby a bit inert considering you have to take chosen as a troop choice if supplement is counted as an ally book making units between codex and supplement. ?!?!

BL lists come from CSM codex, all the model lists are exactly the same, except with the changes and restrictions it makes....

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

Von Marlon wrote:
How on earth does the ally thing work? seems You are very limited to make even an allied attachment with this supplement. Or does it just work as normal but if you use any of the new rules, it forces you to count them as allies?

example, if they are allies they need 1 HQ and 2 troop, the only HQ official mentioned in supplement is abby so has to be him rendering the chosen as troops without abby a bit inert considering you have to take chosen as a troop choice if supplement is counted as an ally book making units between codex and supplement. ?!?!

BL lists come from CSM codex, all the model lists are exactly the same, except with the changes and restrictions it makes....

Oh right phew, that was seriously melting my brain for a moment lol. Allying your own codex is a still bit of a weird one though. I see how the 4 hell drakes comes into it now though lol. So i can still take a plague marine unit as black legion ally as long as I say they are black legion?

It doesn't fix the problems of the CSM book, but I wasn't expecting or even hoping for that - fixes to that book (nerf heldrake, add drop pods, maybe add'l assault transport) should be made to the book itself, and shouldn't require an extra $40 purchase to use.

All in all, it doesn't look any stronger than the main book at all, which is fine, I wasn't looking forward to everyone running a bunch of counts as, anyway. That said, I think I'll still run it and have fun with it as a Black Legion player. I mean, daemon sword for my dark vengeance lord? Eternal warrior for my daemon prince? Orbital Bombardment for my Warpsmith? Sure, thelatter's not great against infantry or monstrous creatures, but it does d3 automatic penetrating hits against anything with an Armor Value that it catches.

And while chosen are far from points efficient, once they're freed from the requirement to take Abaddon, I think there will be a few viable builds that float to the surface. They're too pricey and vulnerable to use as your only scoring units, I think, but I could certainly see fielding a couple squads of five with lascannon, or squads of six with three plasmagun in a rhino.


So yeah, I'd say I'm content with this. Not wowed or anything, but content.

So, you could create a primary detachment from C:CSM led by Abaddon, and ally with Black Legion supplement?

UltraPrime wrote:
So, you could create a primary detachment from C:CSM led by Abaddon, and ally with Black Legion supplement?

2 abaddon's maybe? lol that is the thing that is confusing me. If counted as allies it imposes ally restrictions on them. codex say one abbadon per army but an ally is a separate army so technically unless it explicitly overrules it in supplement, you can take 2 abbys.

Von Marlon wrote:

UltraPrime wrote:
So, you could create a primary detachment from C:CSM led by Abaddon, and ally with Black Legion supplement?

2 abaddon's maybe? lol that is the thing that is confusing me. If counted as allies it imposes ally restrictions on them. codex say one abbadon per army but an ally is a separate army so technically unless it explicitly overrules it in supplement, you can take 2 abbys.

No, I didn't mean 2 Abbys! Just the thought of both the main and detachment being BL - one big uber force!

TiamatRoar wrote:
Looks like peoples' fears that this book wouldn't be able to add anything because Codex: CSM already represents the Black Legion fine enough (rules-wise, at least) were correct. As brought up before, this book is even worse for that when it comes to the rules (really, since when was every member of the Black Legion a veteran of the Long War? Not only the book itself, but hte Word Bearers' novels state that the Black Legion is so huge cause they keep recruiting NEW people).

Still, at least it gave a fluff description about how cult units are organized within the Black Legion, I guess.

Yup.

Who would have guessed a BL supplement would be underwhelming??

A whole lot of us, that's who.

UltraPrime wrote:

Von Marlon wrote:

UltraPrime wrote:
So, you could create a primary detachment from C:CSM led by Abaddon, and ally with Black Legion supplement?

2 abaddon's maybe? lol that is the thing that is confusing me. If counted as allies it imposes ally restrictions on them. codex say one abbadon per army but an ally is a separate army so technically unless it explicitly overrules it in supplement, you can take 2 abbys.

No, I didn't mean 2 Abbys! Just the thought of both the main and detachment being BL - one big uber force!

I think its one or other. BL supplement makes them ally or primary but only they have access to additional rules but you are not forced to take abaddon in supplement so can't see any reason he can't be HQ for the other.. but then does he still confer his new rules onto terminators if he is not part of the supplement?? confused!

 SickSix wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
Looks like peoples' fears that this book wouldn't be able to add anything because Codex: CSM already represents the Black Legion fine enough (rules-wise, at least) were correct. As brought up before, this book is even worse for that when it comes to the rules (really, since when was every member of the Black Legion a veteran of the Long War? Not only the book itself, but hte Word Bearers' novels state that the Black Legion is so huge cause they keep recruiting NEW people).

Still, at least it gave a fluff description about how cult units are organized within the Black Legion, I guess.

Yup.

Who would have guessed a BL supplement would be underwhelming??

A whole lot of us, that's who.

Well the Artifacts are interesting since they are all things that the black legion had.

Pity some of them are weak despite their power in the fluff.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


Well the Artifacts are interesting since they are all things that the black legion had.

Pity some of them are weak despite their power in the fluff.

so these have been fully tested in play? we know these things suck?

I guess we're really starting to understand why these Black Crusades haven't exactly been home runs for Abby, huh?

A lot of it will come down to points values. Many things are great or terrible depending on cost. Black Legion doesn't have a lot of slack to spare in that department, between the vets upgrade and the chosen squads people are considering.

The terminator retinue for Abby is pretty terrible for the cost. skill bumps and hatred of marines are nice, but they don't rate the cost of nearly 10 points extra per model more than regular chaos terminators without any durability increase, especially considering that you probably want to pay even more for combi weapons to make use of that ballistic skill. These guys are going to end up running close to 50 points a model when all is said and done. And you're paying for a 250ish point special character already.

Chosen have some interesting options, but they're far too costly for how easily they die, and an army that relies exclusively on them for scoring is going to have trouble staying on the board.

The warlord traits and artifacts are nice, but not really more impressive than the main book options for the most part, while costing more.


In general, the Black Legion seems to have some cool and fun toys, but suffer, potentially badly, in terms of that all important points efficiency to access them. Probably won't have a meaningful impact on the competitive scene, but I'll have fun playing them.