Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I 've got a couple of wraithknights and rather than make them all ithe same static pose, I was thinking about having one crouching or kneeling, but realized that if he was, I might actually get a cover savve on some of our tables, or on a rare occasion, he might not be able to be seen. I don't play all that often, but I don't want to seem like a cheater or poor gamer, would this be a deal breaker for you guys

If you can do it without modifying the original kit, aka no cuts or Greenstuff, no one can possibly complain.

buckero0 wrote:
I 've got a couple of wraithknights and rather than make them all ithe same static pose, I was thinking about having one crouching or kneeling, but realized that if he was, I might actually get a cover save on some of our tables, or on a rare occasion, he might not be able to be seen. I don't play all that often, but I don't want to seem like a cheater or poor gamer, would this be a deal breaker for you guys

AG has it wrong. There is not problem doing the pose (Of course you got to cut the guiding pins, and greenstuff small caps). It is encouraged you make your models unique, and a 5+ or 4+ cover save doesn't make a game breaker for a wraithknight. I will say to make it seem less like a power gaming option of putting the shimmer shield (if you take one) on the kneeling one. That way if you run into a scum bag steve (mean player/power gamer) you just drop the cover save argument and go to your invlun.

However, If you don't care, I wouldn't. Go ahead and make it kneeling! It will be a first and look cool. Other people will say/ try to stop you from this because the wraith knight is actually tough. Just do it, and enjoy it.

Worse comes to worse treat it as if was "stock".

 Happyjew wrote:
Worse comes to worse treat it as if was "stock".

In a game of True LOS you should not try to estimate where the model should be.

 cormadepanda wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Worse comes to worse treat it as if was "stock".

In a game of True LOS you should not try to estimate where the model should be.

And in a game of True LOS you should not be abusing the rule to gain an advantage.
Because that leads to crawling Genestealers.

I can't speak for the wraith knight, but I have a riptide, and the instructions specifically state that the pins that hold the model together may be removed to achieve different poses.

The riptide and wraith knight are compatible comparisons.

I can post a pic for non believers.

Isn't this a trade off? If you are so short you can't be seen, then you couldn't shoot either.

Homer

It is perfectly legal to make a crouching or kneeling wraithknight. And as GW specifically says you can do this you can't say it is illegal.

I think I'd be pretty hacked off if someone made a crawling Wraithknight - but according to some it's perfectly legal.

Homer S,

While normally correct, there are situations where it can be used for advantage. Take a kneeling riptide, for example, as it could be small enough to fit 100% behind cover while standing it could still have 15% or so exposed. However, with the ability to move-shoot-move, it would be very easy for it to simply pop into line of sight, attack, then pop back out of line of sight. Therefore it has given no trade off for this extra benefit of no longer being a valid target. Same with any model that have weapons that ignore line of sight for targeting purposes. Simply by posing them in a position where they can take advantage of line of sight blocking cover they end up gaining all the benefits while not having to worry about the negatives.

Still, molding for advantage is not exactly illegal no matter what some of us might wish. You are even encouraged to make unique poses and positions for your models. There are even rules designed to prevent these 'flashy' modifications from being used against the model in question, such as banners and wings no being included in line of sight calculations. Everything points to it not just being legal, but encouraged by games workshop.

However a lot of players are very bothered by the possible implications and will simply chose not to play if the model is too different from the original poses.

 Homer S wrote:
Isn't this a trade off? If you are so short you can't be seen, then you couldn't shoot either.

It's not much of one. WKs are already really tall, and have great mobility. You will very rarely not be able to shoot a good target that you could otherwise see - at worst you might have to move to a slightly different location - but you will very often achieve 25% coverage from some piece of terrain that you wouldn't have before, and you will be completely obscured by many more terrain pieces that wouldn't have done so before.

I don't have a problem with someone modeling it this way, but if I can draw LoS to a spot an inch above the kneeling WK's head I expect to be allowed to shoot it.

Edit: Forgot this was YMDC. Yeah, technically legal, I think. Certainly not HIWP in extreme cases.

 BarBoBot wrote:
I can't speak for the wraith knight, but I have a riptide, and the instructions specifically state that the pins that hold the model together may be removed to achieve different poses.

The riptide and wraith knight are compatible comparisons.

I can post a pic for non believers.

In this case it's not a matter of illegality. It's a matter of modeling for advantage.

Kneeling is a stock pose for Riptides. The instructions tell you how to do it. It is not comparable to kneeling Wraithknights.

I would be interested in seeing the range of motion that an unglued pair of wraith knight legs has.

IMO if the models normal range of motion can produce a kneeling position, its not MFA, its building the model in one of its official possible poses. (Such as the riptide)

If you have to cut/green stuff the knees/hips to move beyond the normal range of motion it's MFA, again IMO.

Sweet. I can model my Carnifexes to be around the height of a space marine. They'd look goofy as all hell, but the hips can rotate that way.

That's pretty sad if you don't see the difference.

The rules explicitly say that you can model things however you like, and even encourage you to make alterations with kitbashing and greenstuff.

This doesn't change TLoS. Wherever you choose to model the head, that's where it's drawn from, and however you choose to model it, if 25% is obscured, then it's obscured. You can't make an argument about how a model "should" be assembled, when such a concept doesn't exist in the rules.

If you don't like the idea of "modelling for advantage" then house rule away TLoS back to 4th ed's terrain system, or something. Otherwise, you accept that some of the rules are based on individual players' aesthetic choices and move on.

yeah, MFA is not an actual rule.

Its something that exists in some tournament rule sets, and is always down to the TOs subjective analysis of the model in question.

A kneeling Wraithknight will probably get a pass, but crawling genestealers probably won't.

rigeld2 wrote:
Because that leads to crawling Genestealers.

Now that is a great visual.

If it looks good then I say go for it

 BarBoBot wrote:
I would be interested in seeing the range of motion that an unglued pair of wraith knight legs has.

IMO if the models normal range of motion can produce a kneeling position, its not MFA, its building the model in one of its official possible poses. (Such as the riptide)

If you have to cut/green stuff the knees/hips to move beyond the normal range of motion it's MFA, again IMO.

The wraithknight joints have tabs that lock into the thighs and assembled without alteration, only one leg pose.

 BarBoBot wrote:
That's pretty sad if you don't see the difference.

Pray tell - what's the difference? No modification to either kit. Yet one is "okay" and the other is "verboten"?

pantsonhead wrote:

 Homer S wrote:
Isn't this a trade off? If you are so short you can't be seen, then you couldn't shoot either.

It's not much of one. WKs are already really tall, and have great mobility. You will very rarely not be able to shoot a good target that you could otherwise see - at worst you might have to move to a slightly different location - but you will very often achieve 25% coverage from some piece of terrain that you wouldn't have before, and you will be completely obscured by many more terrain pieces that wouldn't have done so before.

I don't have a problem with someone modeling it this way, but if I can draw LoS to a spot an inch above the kneeling WK's head I expect to be allowed to shoot it.

Edit: Forgot this was YMDC. Yeah, technically legal, I think. Certainly not HIWP in extreme cases.

This.

Theres a pretty good rule out there; "are you willing to count it as the size of the standard model?", and if you invert your answer to that you get the answer to the question "am I MFA"

I've got all sorts of gak thats bigger than usual and give my opponent the option of counting them as they are or counting them as normal sized at the start of each game.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:
That's pretty sad if you don't see the difference.

Pray tell - what's the difference? No modification to either kit. Yet one is "okay" and the other is "verboten"?

A kneeling wraithknight would require heavy modification as the legs only assemble one way properly and always yield the same standing pose.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:
That's pretty sad if you don't see the difference.

Pray tell - what's the difference? No modification to either kit. Yet one is "okay" and the other is "verboten"?

A kneeling wraithknight would require heavy modification as the legs only assemble one way properly and always yield the same standing pose.

Whereas a crouching Carnifex would require zero modification iirc... Which is what BarBoBot was mocking me about.
Reading the posts in context is important.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:
I would be interested in seeing the range of motion that an unglued pair of wraith knight legs has.

IMO if the models normal range of motion can produce a kneeling position, its not MFA, its building the model in one of its official possible poses. (Such as the riptide)

If you have to cut/green stuff the knees/hips to move beyond the normal range of motion it's MFA, again IMO.

The wraithknight joints have tabs that lock into the thighs and assembled without alteration, only one leg pose.

Exactly the same as the Riptide. If you purchased the model, check your instructions, it should say something about cutting off the tabs to have more unique poses.

May i recommend doing something like this Wraith lord


You'll get a lot less people complaining about modeling for advantage if the models line up

 Grey Templar wrote:
yeah, MFA is not an actual rule.

Where, in the rulebook, does it state that I am not allowed to use loaded dice either?

My point is that while MFA isn't explicitely forbidden, it's still a thing. If people purposefully model their minis to gain an advantage, that's cheating. If someone modeled his Wraith Knight lying straight on the ground, that's cheating. It's purposefully screwing your opponent over.

In most games the 'rule of cool' is more important than MFA.