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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 19:02:22
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Mounted Kroot Tracker
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Would this be too drastic a change? There is no longer any first-turn assaulting allowed, and I've seen too many tournament games go to only four turns, and sometimes even only three! This puts assault-based armies at a disadvantage. Would using the first turn for movement and positioning and disallowing any ranged shooting be that bad of an idea?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 19:04:15
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Badass "Sister Sin"
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That's crazy talk.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 19:09:43
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Central MO
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Yes.
Night fight rules in everygame already restricts 1st turn shooting enough.
And there were never that many 1st turn charges. What there are now is a million turn 2 charges. Imagine sitting across from 60 khorne hounds or a tooled out DE beast pack and not being able to shoot the first turn. Utterly unplayable.
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Lifetime Record of Awesomeness
1000000W/ 0L/ 1D (against myself)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 19:11:50
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Oaka wrote:Would this be too drastic a change? There is no longer any first-turn assaulting allowed, and I've seen too many tournament games go to only four turns, and sometimes even only three! This puts assault-based armies at a disadvantage. Would using the first turn for movement and positioning and disallowing any ranged shooting be that bad of an idea?
Where does it say no first turn assaulting? Only if you've scouted or infiltrated and only during the first player turn.
If you go second, you can assault with anything within legal reach.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 19:20:05
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Zealous Sin-Eater
Chico, CA
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Oaka wrote:Would this be too drastic a change? There is no longer any first-turn assaulting allowed, and I've seen too many tournament games go to only four turns, and sometimes even only three! This puts assault-based armies at a disadvantage. Would using the first turn for movement and positioning and disallowing any ranged shooting be that bad of an idea?
So you really think, make the rules so the only thing the first player can do is move. Then the second player get to shoot and if the first player left his guy to close, assaulted too. All on the first turn of the game, don't really see it as a good thing.
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Peter: As we all know, Christmas is that mystical time of year when the ghost of Jesus rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living! So we all sing Christmas Carols to lull him back to sleep.
Bob: Outrageous, How dare he say such blasphemy. I've got to do something.
Man #1: Bob, there's nothing you can do.
Bob: Well, I guess I'll just have to develop a sense of humor. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 19:37:04
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Mounted Kroot Tracker
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It was just an idea, after watching a Tau army spend 60 minutes of a 90 minute tournament game shooting the crap out of an Ork army in the first two turns. The game ended due to time at the end of the third turn, when the Orks finally got into assault.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/12 19:39:20
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 19:39:12
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Edit: oh I understand.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/12 19:39:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 19:41:38
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Mounted Kroot Tracker
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I added 'due to time', the game didn't end because of an Ork assault massacre
I'm starting to think my concerns would be addressed better if tournaments had a rule that any game that doesn't complete four turns is an automatic draw? This would have the same problems of game-delaying, but I think it might be much easier to catch when an opponent who is outmatched is clearly delaying that fifth turn?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/12 19:45:40
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 19:42:18
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Yeah, I realized that just as I was clicking post.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/12 20:15:03
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Oaka wrote:Would this be too drastic a change? There is no longer any first-turn assaulting allowed, and I've seen too many tournament games go to only four turns, and sometimes even only three! This puts assault-based armies at a disadvantage. Would using the first turn for movement and positioning and disallowing any ranged shooting be that bad of an idea?
you can only solve this problem by giving every player a clock/stopwatch with the exact amount of time without random game length. Yes, I also don't like it that the nerfed the assault armies...but if you want to make it work you can use an assault army that doesn't take a lot of time.
for example:
my tyranid army deploy's a tervigon, two termagaunt units and a swarmlord. I keep them in cover and dont show myself until turn two and trygons, ymgarl genestealers, doom with mycetic spore, flying hive and outflanking tervigon get on the board on a 2+. Thats a whole first turn without almost any shooting and saves a lot of time.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/14 05:31:36
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Ruthless Rafkin
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I think a better idea would be to lower points totals, while keeping round times as high as they are now. 1850 in tow hours is nearly unplayable with some of the armies we have now.
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-Loki- wrote:
40k is about slamming two slegdehammers together and hoping the other breaks first. Malifaux is about fighting with scalpels trying to hit select areas and hoping you connect more. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/14 17:11:51
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Stabbin' Skarboy
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Valhallan42nd wrote:I think a better idea would be to lower points totals, while keeping round times as high as they are now. 1850 in tow hours is nearly unplayable with some of the armies we have now.
Thats a bunch of crap. I play hoard orks and if my opponet is moving at a good pace I can do 5,6 turns at 1750 in the normal 2hr 15 min time limit. People just need to learn how to play. I have perfected moving large squads of dudes, deploying rather fast, and speed rolling so my shooting/ CC doenst take forever. If I can do it, then anyone can do it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/14 17:12:18
All my work is done using StyleX, Professional Model Tools
http://www.stylexhobby.com
My 1850 pt. Ork army: Big Boss Badonk-a-Donk and 'da Dakka Dudez
Eye of Terror San Diego Tournament: Best Painted
Game Empire Pasadena RTT : Best Painted x 4
Bay Area Open: 2nd Best Presentation
Anime Expo '14: Best Presentation/Hobbyist
Feast of Blades Qualifier: Best Presentation(Perfect Score)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/14 17:18:37
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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All IG players would kill themselves.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/14 19:09:58
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Ruthless Rafkin
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MikeFox wrote: Valhallan42nd wrote:I think a better idea would be to lower points totals, while keeping round times as high as they are now. 1850 in tow hours is nearly unplayable with some of the armies we have now.
Thats a bunch of crap. I play hoard orks and if my opponet is moving at a good pace I can do 5,6 turns at 1750 in the normal 2hr 15 min time limit. People just need to learn how to play. I have perfected moving large squads of dudes, deploying rather fast, and speed rolling so my shooting/ CC doenst take forever. If I can do it, then anyone can do it.
Killidephlia has two "top tier players" exceed their time limit by over an hour+ due to bloated shooting phases. The organizers allowed them to go to the fifth turn before cutting them off. This is at the top table, which was given the luxury of extra time to complete the game. Had time been a factor, they would have only gotten to the top of three, IIRC. These were no schlubs; these were nationally ranked players.
I see zero issue with lowering points costs. It would shift the meta around, but the meta always adjusts.
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-Loki- wrote:
40k is about slamming two slegdehammers together and hoping the other breaks first. Malifaux is about fighting with scalpels trying to hit select areas and hoping you connect more. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/14 19:10:43
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Fixture of Dakka
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MikeFox wrote: Valhallan42nd wrote:I think a better idea would be to lower points totals, while keeping round times as high as they are now. 1850 in tow hours is nearly unplayable with some of the armies we have now.
Thats a bunch of crap. I play hoard orks and if my opponet is moving at a good pace I can do 5,6 turns at 1750 in the normal 2hr 15 min time limit. People just need to learn how to play. I have perfected moving large squads of dudes, deploying rather fast, and speed rolling so my shooting/ CC doenst take forever. If I can do it, then anyone can do it.
Emphasis added to highlight the significant difference between what you are saying, and what the post you replied to is saying.
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Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/14 19:12:51
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Stabbin' Skarboy
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Oh Im not against lower point tournaments at all. My orks get increasingly better the less stuff the other player has.
Its just the reasoning that high point games are not viable in standard tournament play times doesnt jive with me. And hey if you only get to the top of three, then both players take a lose. Thats how Ive seen it done at a good deal of tournaments in the west. Besides I go to win best painted army
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/14 19:14:30
All my work is done using StyleX, Professional Model Tools
http://www.stylexhobby.com
My 1850 pt. Ork army: Big Boss Badonk-a-Donk and 'da Dakka Dudez
Eye of Terror San Diego Tournament: Best Painted
Game Empire Pasadena RTT : Best Painted x 4
Bay Area Open: 2nd Best Presentation
Anime Expo '14: Best Presentation/Hobbyist
Feast of Blades Qualifier: Best Presentation(Perfect Score)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/14 19:53:01
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Ruthless Rafkin
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MikeFox wrote:Oh Im not against lower point tournaments at all. My orks get increasingly better the less stuff the other player has.
Its just the reasoning that high point games are not viable in standard tournament play times doesnt jive with me. And hey if you only get to the top of three, then both players take a lose. Thats how Ive seen it done at a good deal of tournaments in the west. Besides I go to win best painted army 
I think we're going to see more and more incomplete games. I'm not saying it can't be done; I'm just seeing we'll say it less, which is not what anyone wants to see.
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-Loki- wrote:
40k is about slamming two slegdehammers together and hoping the other breaks first. Malifaux is about fighting with scalpels trying to hit select areas and hoping you connect more. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/14 20:19:17
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Oaka wrote:Would this be too drastic a change? There is no longer any first-turn assaulting allowed, and I've seen too many tournament games go to only four turns, and sometimes even only three! This puts assault-based armies at a disadvantage. Would using the first turn for movement and positioning and disallowing any ranged shooting be that bad of an idea?
If all you are doing int he first turn is movement, you might as well just leave the game as-is and extend deployment zones by 6"...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/14 20:22:21
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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How about instead of lowering this lowering that, screwing with the rules of the game, the people running the tournament could not be complete fething idiots and up the time limit so people can actually finish a game.
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2000+pts
23-0-2
5-1-2
still building slaanesh army! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/14 20:31:37
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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Admiral General Aladeen wrote:How about instead of lowering this lowering that, screwing with the rules of the game, the people running the tournament could not be complete fething idiots and up the time limit so people can actually finish a game.
But that means you won't get as many games in!!!11!!!oneone
On a more serious note, I agree completely. All the tournaments I've been to have been 1750 points and had 3 hours per round. 5 games over 2 days giving you plenty of time to finish the games without rushing.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/14 20:43:45
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Superior Stormvermin
Manassas, VA
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Honestly, I would not attend a tournament like that. I have spent hundreds of dollars building and a ton of time painting an army around shooting (CSM with plasma guns and autocannon Havoc fire support) and this would totally take my army out of the game altogether. My army lives and breathes firepower and taking that away from me gives assault-oriented armies an edge they really don't need. I'd have big problems going after objectives, and after my opponent advanced and ran with impunity on his first turn (assuming they went first) I'd have them breathing down my neck and ready to assault me, where I'd quickly fold. My army MUST fire on the enemy from the get-go, and taking that away from me completely shuts down my game plan.
Also, as stated above, Imperial Guard players would be plain ol' screwed by this. Even assuming I came to this event, (using my army as an example) I'd be able to advance into position with zero casualties and hose down his units with all my bolters and plasma.
...and then the Heldrakes would arrive...
Basically this idea would start all firepower based armies out on their back foot, which would totally unbalance the (already tenuously balanced) system.
In short, yes. this would really mess up the system.
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"I have concluded through careful empirical analysis and much thought that somebody is looking out for me, keeping track of what I think about things, forgiving me when I do less than I ought, giving me strength to shoot for more than I think I am capable of. I believe they know everything that I do and think, and they still love me. And I’ve concluded, after careful consideration, that this person keeping score is me." -Adam Savage |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/14 20:48:35
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Dangerous Outrider
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I'm going to just say this. Up until about a year ago, laying Shooty armies meant you were going to lose.
So...take away first turn shooting and that screws the armies that rely on it. As a Tau player all I've got is my shooting, if you make it to my lines I am dead. Just saying.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/14 21:28:04
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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Avrik_Shasla wrote:I'm going to just say this. Up until about a year ago, laying Shooty armies meant you were going to lose.
Yeah, except Space Wolves... and Necrons... and Grey Knights... and anything spamming Razorbacks... and Imperial Guard... and so on and so forth. I've got no clue how anyone could possibly believe that 5th edition was melee-centric. It really wasn't. Transporthammer was a thing because Razorbacks and Chimerae brought so much firepower so cheaply.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 11:05:57
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander
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I think the premise of this thread is flawed.
I would suggest that the 1.5 hour game limit was the problem here assuming 1250+ point armies.
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How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website " |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/15 11:08:57
Subject: Re:No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
Missouri
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There's also the fact that the Ork codex is woefully out of date and they're considered one of the worst armies. Pretty sure that had nothing to do with it.
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Desubot wrote:Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.
"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/16 16:40:41
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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No first turn shooting would make drop pods awesome. I get to bring half my army in on turn 1 (especially if I go 1st) and set up with impunity.
Then you get to run away your first turn.
2nd turn more of my stuff comes in and shoots you up, leaving me with entire undammaged squads that I can choose to shoot even more and/or then assault with.
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Life isn't fair. But wouldn't it be worse if Life were fair, and all of the really terrible things that happen to us were because we deserved them?
M. Cole.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/16 16:58:17
Subject: Re:No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Widowmaker
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Sidstyler wrote:There's also the fact that the Ork codex is woefully out of date and they're considered one of the worst armies. Pretty sure that had nothing to do with it.
You shut your mouth! We don't need reminding
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2012- stopped caring
Nova Open 2011- Orks 8th Seed---(I see a trend)
Adepticon 2011- Mike H. Orks 8th Seed (This was the WTF list of the Final 16)
Adepticon 2011- Combat Patrol Best General |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/17 12:36:00
Subject: Re:No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Been Around the Block
Huntingdon, UK
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Bat Manuel wrote: Sidstyler wrote:There's also the fact that the Ork codex is woefully out of date and they're considered one of the worst armies. Pretty sure that had nothing to do with it.
You shut your mouth! We don't need reminding
Bah it just means you need more Dakka!!!
While they are behind the times it just means you need more skill or in my case don't care and have a lot of fun playing them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/17 16:23:47
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Apprehensive Inquisitorial Apprentice
Columbia SC
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Oaka wrote:It was just an idea, after watching a Tau army spend 60 minutes of a 90 minute tournament game shooting the crap out of an Ork army in the first two turns. The game ended due to time at the end of the third turn, when the Orks finally got into assault.
The fault here is the slow play. No reason that much should be spent shooting. Automatically Appended Next Post: Valhallan42nd wrote: MikeFox wrote: Valhallan42nd wrote:I think a better idea would be to lower points totals, while keeping round times as high as they are now. 1850 in tow hours is nearly unplayable with some of the armies we have now.
Thats a bunch of crap. I play hoard orks and if my opponet is moving at a good pace I can do 5,6 turns at 1750 in the normal 2hr 15 min time limit. People just need to learn how to play. I have perfected moving large squads of dudes, deploying rather fast, and speed rolling so my shooting/ CC doenst take forever. If I can do it, then anyone can do it.
Killidephlia has two "top tier players" exceed their time limit by over an hour+ due to bloated shooting phases. The organizers allowed them to go to the fifth turn before cutting them off. This is at the top table, which was given the luxury of extra time to complete the game. Had time been a factor, they would have only gotten to the top of three, IIRC. These were no schlubs; these were nationally ranked players.
I see zero issue with lowering points costs. It would shift the meta around, but the meta always adjusts.
Again, as has been pointed out, the problem lies in how the TO's are handling the event. I play a very shooting heavy GK list and I cannot fathom excess time spent on shooting phases. I am guessing that this has more to do with slow-play-for-advantage than anything else.
I have routniely played 2000 pt games in under 2 hours with everything from SMs to Tau to DE to Orks, even if going for 7 turns. It can be done.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/17 16:38:21
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/17 16:43:03
Subject: No First Turn Shooting in 40K Tournaments?
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator
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Valhallan42nd wrote: MikeFox wrote: Valhallan42nd wrote:I think a better idea would be to lower points totals, while keeping round times as high as they are now. 1850 in tow hours is nearly unplayable with some of the armies we have now.
Thats a bunch of crap. I play hoard orks and if my opponet is moving at a good pace I can do 5,6 turns at 1750 in the normal 2hr 15 min time limit. People just need to learn how to play. I have perfected moving large squads of dudes, deploying rather fast, and speed rolling so my shooting/ CC doenst take forever. If I can do it, then anyone can do it.
Killidephlia has two "top tier players" exceed their time limit by over an hour+ due to bloated shooting phases. The organizers allowed them to go to the fifth turn before cutting them off. This is at the top table, which was given the luxury of extra time to complete the game. Had time been a factor, they would have only gotten to the top of three, IIRC. These were no schlubs; these were nationally ranked players.
I see zero issue with lowering points costs. It would shift the meta around, but the meta always adjusts.
I was one of those two players, couple things to keep in mind:
-We were told "play to finish, there's no time limit" before we started, so we played accordingly, in hindsight this made the game reaaaally too long, as we played much more relaxed/chit chatty without realizing it
-I remember a fair few times we were interrupted to chat about Tau rules discussions elsewhere in the event and get our input, while fine, it contributed to an extent as well
I generally finish 1850 in 2-2.5 hours and play 5-6 turns without much of a sweat. But I think telling players "just play to finish, don't worry about time" changes how they play straight out the gate, leading to much more careful play, in game pauses to reflect, etc, which was what happened in our game. I think it's hard to use this game really as an example of your point because of it.
All that said, I wouldn't mind if the new norm switched to say, 1500, just because it'd be amusing and shake things up. But I've seen plenty of resistance purely switching from 2000 - > 1850, I can't imagine 1500 really catching on sadly.
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