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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz9CBBM9WU4

So I like this, except for the crazy typo:correct grammar ratio. But towards the end of the video, I like how he shows the Imperium, but that gets me thinking, how much longer can we survive on our own (in 40K terms). Will we have to kill our 'corrupt' leaders to accept an alliance with the Tau? Will we have to just soldier or just die? I created this btw before I watched this youtube vid:

At the birth of a species, the single most powerful mortal being in the known universe was created, his fate to lead, defend, and reign over his race. He was born unto a species destined for power, violence, domination and betrayal. Knowing the nature and lethality of this race, the four Chaos Gods, as of yet unknown to this foundling species, tempted them into a nature of flaws and weakness. So was the essence of these Gods planted in this species’ beings – Greed, Anger, Imperfection and Mortality. Thus the rivalry between the Four Gods and the Mortal God began. Emerging time and time again, the Mortal God led the species into further greatness, as general, religious leader and thinker, ushering this young race to a destiny far greater than any could have intended.

Known as Mankind, they strode amongst the stars, long after mighty empires had risen and fallen for the galaxy. Unstoppable, they destroyed alien races, known simply as Xenos, for further gain and the expansion of their empire, this era was known as the Age of Technology. Mankind was unmatched in power, territory and strength, yet their arrogance, like many before them, proved to be a vital weakness. The Age of Strife ripped apart the mighty empire, in-fighting and treachery steadily destroying the empire. All hope was lost. The Chaos Gods had won, or so it seemed, until the Mortal God emerged - the Emperor of Mankind had risen. With his innumerable army, he quickly destroyed the anarchy eating away at the empire. The damage was done however, and the technologies and territory that had once been held were now lost to Mankind, the technologies never to be found again. The Emperor, seeing the need to re take all of what had been lost, created 20 genetically engineered demi-gods, the Emperor’s sons, the Primarchs. However, the Chaos Gods persisted in their attempts to deny humanity their fate, and cast the Primarchs to the lost worlds of the galaxy, supposedly never to be seen again. However, the Emperor was not to be denied, and with his newly constructed bio-engineered super human soldiers, known as the Adeptus Astartes, began to re-take the lost planets, one-by-one finding the lost Primarchs. It looked that the Chaos God’s attempts to destroy the threat of Mankind was once again foiled. Through his actions, the Emperor proved to be the anathema of the Chaos Gods, and had to be destroyed. Their plan reached fruition when they corrupted the primarch Horus Lupercarl, of who was second only to the Emperor and Warmaster of the Imperium. Horus led a rebellion of half of the Adeptus Astartes against the Emperor, in the single bloodiest conflict in the history of Mankind, known as The Horus Heresy.

The war reached its end as the Battle of Terra began. Pitting man against man, brother against brother, Loyalist against Traitor. At the peak of the battle, Horus revealed himself in his flagship, allowing the primarch Sanguinius, leader of the Blood Angels Legion, to enter the ship and confront the Arch Traitor. However, even Sanguinius was unable to destroy Horus, the Chaos powers granted unto Horus by the Dark Gods allowing him to easily end Sanguinius, suffering only a minor chink in his armour. The Emperor of Mankind then entered; his uncontrollable rage and pain at his favoured son’s betrayal represented in the fury of each of his strikes. However, the Emperor could not end his favoured son, and, on the edge of death, used his unrivalled mental powers to destroy Horus utterly, leaving only an arm, the Chaos Gods having fled Horus moments before the strike. The Heresy was over, and the near-dead Emperor was entombed onto the Golden Throne, allowing the mental powers of the Emperor to live on forever. However, the Chaos Gods’ plan had worked, and the course of Mankind was changed forever, forged on only by the unyielding efforts of the Imperium. This spirit was only maintainable by the Emperor’s gift upon Mankind: Hope. Hope, hope that led Mankind to fight on in impossible battles, hope that led Mankind to reach to the stars in the hope of a better life, hope, the only thing that the Chaos Gods could never truly break until the destruction of every single human.

Now the Space Marines are the foremost hope for mankind. In a galaxy full of dangers, death and violence, the elite Space Marines carry on the Emperors message, that Mankind was destined for greatness, and could still be, upon the destruction of every single Chaos-worshipping and Xenos lifeform in the Universe. Without the Emperor to guide Mankind, anything is possible, and only through hope could Mankind persevere.

But now my thought line goes to: what next? A super super bio-engineered Marine? Using the cell's of the Emperor's Corpse, bio-engineering it with a geneseed, make it into a super chapter? Or maybe an Adeptus Astartes versus Imperium war in order to create a non-corrupt Imperium (this won't happen but)?

Ideas?

You, like many people, really over estimate the power of the space marines. They aren't the foremost hope, they aren't even more then legend to most planets. 1000 chapters of 1000 is how many there is give or take. That means there are about 1 million marines + a few thousand for the extras of the black Templars and Space wolves, on a galactic scale this is nothing, less then nothing. The Imperial hope lays foremost on the Imperial guard, for every battle space marines win, Imperial Guard win 1 thousand across the galaxy. They have the numbers, if they only got 1 million guys per planet they would be in the high billions for an army. If you are asking if the imperium will win in the end, I say no. That's there 'thing', a depressing recessive and repressive civilisation that is on the precipice of destruction. The emperor wont one day 'wake up', that super chapter your talking about already happened in the grey knights, give me a call when the conquer the universe. There are several ways to revive the emperor, those being sacrificing his illegitimate children which may or may not work, Or to kill him which will result in him becoming a Chaos god.

Its the imperial guard, it always has been, it always will be. They are the heroes of the imperium, the space marines are just show boats.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
You, like many people, really over estimate the power of the space marines. They aren't the foremost hope, they aren't even more then legend to most planets. 1000 chapters of 1000 is how many there is give or take. That means there are about 1 million marines + a few thousand for the extras of the black Templars and Space wolves

And you like many people underestimate how many there actually are. There More than 1000 chapters and many have more than 1000 marines. That is mereley what Guiliman had intended for the Astartes when he wrote in the Codex Astartes. Since then more chapters have been created with varying numbers of Marines in each. Take the Lamanters and Flesh Tearers as examples of this they have far fewer Marines than the Blood Angels. And in turn they have far fewer marines than the Ultramarines. According to what I've read the UM and their successors account for around 50% of all Astartes. We don't know how many Space Marines there are and we don't know how many chapters there are. The are chapters that have gone renegade gone missing or have gone extinct. There is most likely a lot more than 1 million marines.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
The space marines are just show boats.

I guess people hear "marines" and imagine they're a larger force somehow, kind of how US marines are actually a pretty large arm of the US armed forces. Space Marines are more like the very best Special Forces such an army has - they're few and not used for any old border skirmish. They're not just for show but they can't be used everywhere - their reputation boosting morale is often more useful than the missions they pull off.

Quality over quantity.

The Imperial Guard wins more battles.

The Space Marines win the most important ones.

All hope seems lost...

But.

The Emperors plan wasn't to beat them all. It was to guide humanity until they are able to control their abilities.
Whenever that happens, chaos and xenos are screwed.
Why would humans make it that far?
Because they survived multiple civil wars, they are made to survive.
Imperia are not eternal.
The Emperors rule may cease to be known.
But his plan will come true.


Then all you chaotic creatures and xeno scumbags will be sorry, very very sorry....

You, like many people, really over estimate the power of the space marines. They aren't the foremost hope, they aren't even more then legend to most planets. 1000 chapters of 1000 is how many there is give or take. That means there are about 1 million marines + a few thousand for the extras of the black Templars and Space wolves, on a galactic scale this is nothing, less then nothing. The Imperial hope lays foremost on the Imperial guard, for every battle space marines win, Imperial Guard win 1 thousand across the galaxy. They have the numbers, if they only got 1 million guys per planet they would be in the high billions for an army. If you are asking if the imperium will win in the end, I say no. That's there 'thing', a depressing recessive and repressive civilisation that is on the precipice of destruction. The emperor wont one day 'wake up', that super chapter your talking about already happened in the grey knights, give me a call when the conquer the universe. There are several ways to revive the emperor, those being sacrificing his illegitimate children which may or may not work, Or to kill him which will result in him becoming a Chaos god.

Its the imperial guard, it always has been, it always will be. They are the heroes of the imperium, the space marines are just show boats.

Unfortunately, you will never convince all the players who think the Marines are the coolest thing about the 40K Universe. They will always come up with an excuse as to why Space Marines are the most important, and could pacify the galaxy on their own.

AegisGrimm wrote:Unfortunately, you will never convince all the players who think the Marines are the coolest thing about the 40K Universe. They will always come up with an excuse as to why Space Marines are the most important, and could pacify the galaxy on their own.

I blame conflicting impressions from the available material. GW's books, if you really read what they say, are pretty clear about who is more important to the Imperium's continued existence - yet the Marines continue to hog the spotlight, and there are many novels and games that focus on this depiction.

It's a bit ironic that the IG is not only the underdog in terms of individual manpower, but also appreciation amongst the setting's fans.

IG is what holds the Imperium together, imo.

 rednecroncryptek wrote:
Will we have to kill our 'corrupt' leaders to accept an alliance with the Tau?

Yeah, I doubt that's gonna happen.

Raging xenophobia aside, that wouldn't accomplish much. The Tau, on the whole, are a tiny, tiny power next to the other threats like the 'Nids, Chaos, Orks and Necrons, so allying them is only going to be so much help. Heck, the Imperium itself is far, dar larger than the Tau Empire, so it's not going to majorly benefit from suddenly killing its leadership to ally the Tau. And even if it did, the Tau's lack of warp drives will keep them more or less confined to their part of the galaxy, so they won't be able to help with most of the Imperium's problems.

It would be easier to kill the Tau, take their stuff, and reverse-engineer its use for ourselves.

 Psienesis wrote:
It would be easier to kill the Tau, take their stuff, and reverse-engineer its use for ourselves.

Or still ally with them, take the blueprints for their stuff and start producing straight away. The Imperium is xenophobic but not always stupid - the Eldar are pretty much left alone because they're usually invisible for example. And last time some Imperial high-up got the bright idea of attacking a Craftworld a whole sector fleet was lost. I'm sure the same sort of reasoning could be used to spare the Tau. They responded with surprising force to Imperial incursions, and are not anywhere near the danger represented by Orks, Tyranids and Chaos. Wiping them out would cost a lot and net very little, even considering some weapons systems would be worth it. The Imperium has a lot of lasguns already and they work well enough.

 redkeyboard wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
You, like many people, really over estimate the power of the space marines. They aren't the foremost hope, they aren't even more then legend to most planets. 1000 chapters of 1000 is how many there is give or take. That means there are about 1 million marines + a few thousand for the extras of the black Templars and Space wolves

And you like many people underestimate how many there actually are. There More than 1000 chapters and many have more than 1000 marines. That is mereley what Guiliman had intended for the Astartes when he wrote in the Codex Astartes. Since then more chapters have been created with varying numbers of Marines in each. Take the Lamanters and Flesh Tearers as examples of this they have far fewer Marines than the Blood Angels. And in turn they have far fewer marines than the Ultramarines. According to what I've read the UM and their successors account for around 50% of all Astartes. We don't know how many Space Marines there are and we don't know how many chapters there are. The are chapters that have gone renegade gone missing or have gone extinct. There is most likely a lot more than 1 million marines.

Or more likely there are less then a million. As you said, chapters go renegade (Red Corsairs) , go extinct (Crimson Consuls) or simply go missing (Fire Hawks). A Full chapter has 1000 marines, most chapters aren't at full strength. All the under strength chapters probably out number over strength ones such as the black Templars by a fair bit. If 50% of the chapters are ultra marines, then they at least will stick to codex of 1000 marines. Most other successor chapters would be lucky to have 1000 marines. Seems to me that under a million marines wont even make a dent in the universe.

In 40k its quantity over quality, if all the marines fought all the Imperial guard the marines would lose within an hour by a quadrillion basilisk shells falling on there heads. The imperium needs to win the quantity of battles, not just win some in a flashy way. The marines couldn't accomplish this. The only time I have seen Marines in a full scale war was the war for Macragge, in which the ultra marines where almost annihilated by a single, by comparison, small hive fleet along with the heart of the most populas segmentum outside of terra.

Seems to me that the space marines are in fact holding the imperium back, why give all that amazing equipment to some self righteous super human that doesn't follow your orders because they think they are outside of the chain of command ( Space wolves and the inquisition) when all those resources could be used to make leman russes and baneblades? Which would win more wars?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:


Or more likely there are less then a million. As you said, chapters go renegade (Red Corsairs) , go extinct (Crimson Consuls) or simply go missing (Fire Hawks). A Full chapter has 1000 marines, most chapters aren't at full strength. All the under strength chapters probably out number over strength ones such as the black Templars by a fair bit. If 50% of the chapters are ultra marines, then they at least will stick to codex of 1000 marines. Most other successor chapters would be lucky to have 1000 marines.

Falling into the trap of chapter = 1000 marines and questioning the numbers of other people? Really?
Am sorry, but 1000 marines is just 10 companies of 10 squads of 10 marines. Was never the whole set of marines of a chapter.
And No, lost chapters get replaced, those still active may have more than 1000 fieldable marines.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

Seems to me that under a million marines wont even make a dent in the universe.

They don't have to.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

In 40k its quantity over quality,

No.
A single talented commander like Macharius can multiply the effectiveness of the forces, you don't want just quantitiy.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

all those resources could be used to make leman russes and baneblades? Which would win more wars?

Throwing vehicles at something doesn't win wars outside of crappy rts computer games.
Again, you want a toolbox.
Not a bag of wrenches.
A complete toolbox lets you solve the problem at hand. Your quantity of single use tools otoH.....

The ironic thing is that the Imperium keeping on with it's aggression against the Tau, but not destroying them outright, is enabling a forced advancement of the Tau. Because they are entirely open to the idea of invention, their war effort just keeps getting better. Once again the Imperium is creating it's own problems.

It's like in Battlefleet Gothic, where first you had the tau Explorer fleets, with "poor man's warships", and then they developed the full-on War fleet that was available from Forgeworld, which was much, much more dangerous. And pretty much entirely due to the Damocles Crusade against them convincing them they had to do better.

The Tau lack the high speed expansion of other races, but they make up for it by being much safer and more reliable via Warp surfing rather than Warp diving. That, and their inherent resistance to Chaos give them a major advantage against corrupting agents that might otherwise be introduced into their society.

While the Imperium would never outright ally with the Tau, it's not beyond reason to believe that some Mechanicus tech priests from their Biology ranks would take interest in Tau physiology.

I was not saying that Space Marine's are the foremost hope, but they represent the foremost hope. Faith/resilience/strength.

If i had the money, I would play IG, but I don't, but just because I didn't include them, doesn't mean they won't involved.

SCENARIOS

Here is an interesting question though.. who would be the first to go? IMO Eldar. NOT because I think that they are gak, (which they aren't... sorta) but they are just too finite.

The last showdown for me though would be Orks versus Tyranids.

2 horde armies, Tyranids innumerable, Orks indestructible (in the large picture). Tyranids are less capable of dagger strike taking out Ork Warlords, and the fight would bring more and more Orks into the fight. For once, all of life will be rooting for Orks.

What would be the beginning of the end for the Imperium. IMO, Armaggedon falls. To Orks, CSM, TAU or otherwise. That would be the beginning of the end.

Hope? I'd say the mindset of the Imperium is more of quiet desperation. Though a mighty empire, it is assailed on all sides and from within, a cumbersome, bloated entity that for the most part strives merely for survival. It would take far more than another breed of supermen to right this ship I'm afraid.

Though space marines are the absolute vanguard of humanity's defense, they are a mere drop in the sea compared to the vast resources of the Imperial Guard and Navy. Even if their numbers were triple as stated they would remain only a tiny fraction of actual combat forces. Unless the Imperium is changed at its very core it is doomed to continue its cycle of merely treading water to stay afloat.

The standard Imperial citizen would likely see a Mechanicus Skitarii before they saw an Adeptus Astartes.

But the numbers of the Imperial guard with the technology of the Tau would be a cool thing to see, if not ever possible.

If a super Marine chapter was created, even with abilities beyond the Grey Knights, the Chaos gods would be on that like flies on gak (at least Nurgle) trying to corrupt them.

Humanity's best hope? A few Tyranid hive fleets moving into the Eye of Terror, smashing into the 13th Black Crusade. But that ain't gonna happen.

The Grey Knights have that Terminus thing on Titan they can only use if humanity is truly doomed, and we have idea what that is. It could revive the Emporer, allow him to possess a healthy body, or even provide a method to channel the Emporer's psychic might into a massive spite blast that scours the galaxy of life. Who knows - the thing could be one big dues ex machina that resets things to a previous status quo.

Between the Orks, Necrons, Chaos, and Tyranids I'd say mankind is pretty doomed.

The Eldar and Tau are also doomed, well not the Dark Eldar, but they're bastards.