Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi, im new to eldar and me and some of my friends are having a mini casual competition (750 pts) and im planning on running a saim-hann style jetbike list. I really like the whole idea of it and how fast they are and I also think having a seer council on jetbikes is really cool and theyre supposed to be really good aswell but I also know that theyre really expensive and may not fit into a 750 point list so I dont really know whether I can fit them in. Are they worth it with the random powers or could I just run a mini council? What do you think?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyone?

Is it possible? Yes. Is it recommended? Not so much.

Seer Councils are definitely not what they used to be, and given they're so expensive it'd take up A LOT of your 750 pts. If I were determined to run them at that pts level, I'd probably run a mini-squad of 3 (maybe with a Farseer attached, but honestly probably not). And at that point, I wouldn't even really be taking them for the buffs/debuffs, I'd just be using them as a fast, tank hunter with 3 mini-lascannons and 2+ cover...

Again, not really worth the pricetag however...

Problem is Jetlocks are 50 points per model and really not hugely effective in combat. Their old trick was to be impossibly durable, so you'd win battles by grinding stuff down over a few turns, or not win them at all but keep something important tied up... now that Fortune isn't guaranteed and their points have gone up, their lack of an AP value is even more apparent. Can't even guarantee mass Destructors either!

Now, Shining Spears are 25 points per model, while getting an AP value on their weapon and Skilled Rider and Hit and Run, also can now be in units up to 9 strong. I'd say if you're set on a Jetcouncil-type build, esp at low points, go with a Shining Council instead, with Farseer(s) and/or Autarch(s) to taste.

The other option is just take a squad of regular jetbikes as ablative wounds, attach a Warlock and two HQ jetbikes to taste and use it as a micro-jetcouncil.

"Shining Council" ey Farseer_Kaiser? I'm definitely stealing that name! XD

Ok thanks for the comments
I've heard lots of good things about an autarch with laser lance and fusion gun going with the spears for anti MEQ.(also if it helps I will probably be playing against necrons, tau, marines, and possibly DE

My new dex still hasn't arrived yet so I can't really form an army list but how would this look?

HQ: autarch on bike with laser lance and fusion gun

Troops: 6x guardian jetbikes with 2 cannons
6x guardian jetbikes with 2 cannons

Heavy support:possibly a prism?(if not then vipers)

Fast attack: as many spears as possible with exarch and star lance
Possibly two vipers with BLs? (Again if not then a prism)


What do you think? Is there room for another viper or even another prism? Or should I focus on upgrading the 'shining council'

While shining spears have improved I still can't recommend a big unit of them. I mean you could give the Autarch the mantel of the laughing god and be far survivable then an entire unit of 9 shining spears. Less damage output, be he is a powerful scalpel of an eldar army.

Im honestly not stellar about big units of guardian jetbikes as I think it defeats the purpose of the best thing they can be used for. Capturing objectives last minute. The way I see it is the more points that are in the unit, the more likely the enemy is to shoot them. Then they unless you spend yet more points to make them survive, then you have lost a very potent scoring unit, one of only 2 you have. So what I would do is drop on unit down to 3 with no cannon to stay in reserve then with points add a Jetlock to unit of 6. Primaras power and hey look, 2+ cover save. There is that survivability I was walking about (stay the heck away from heldrakes!).

Have a unit of spears for sure, but maybe just a unit of 6 with exarch. Enough to work well and hit hard on the charge, but not super duper expensive at about 180pts. For the record I would always go for a prism over vypers, a single bright lance on an AV 10 vehicle isn't a good investment. I would go for 2 prisms and a third GJB unit in a 1850 list with an added jetseer.

**EDIT** forgot you don't have new codex, Mantel of the laughing god means a character can't join units, but gets stealth, shrouded and re-roll cover saves, that means for just MOVING the Autarch (Aptly named the Solitaire) gets a 2+ re-rollable cover save thanks to jink.

Ok thanks, the mantle sounds really fun but its annoying that he can't join units . And also I was only really planning on 5 or 6 spears with an exarch.

A problem with dropping the bikes down to 3 is that if one dies I have to take a morale check at ...(I'm tempted to say ld 8?) so if they fail and run off the board they'll be wasted.

I think I will go with prism but I am also worried that it will draw too much fire and get destroyed too quickly.

Also, I'm not sure if you read the previous posts but we just agreed against a jet seer council(although would a farseer with a singing Speer be better than the autarch for better anti tank but worse anti MEQ)? Also to get 2+ cover save you need to turbo boost so if you want it the whole time then you lack options aswell as your council looking like retards randomly boosting around the board, unless im mistaken And I'm not sure what your talking about for a 1850 point list when I'm still down at 750?

Thanks for the input though

I meant that's what you could build up to. The reason for 3 is because its cheap, and if you play well, they should never get the chance to be shot. They should be in reserve until they come in, which you delay as long as possible using autarchs master strategist, then they hug LOS blocking terrain until last turn ( tournaments usually have a set number of turns) then turbo boast onto an un contested objective to take it or to contest on of theirs. It gives you points to mess around with other units making them more deadly. Like adding a warlock to bigger guardian jetbike unit, making very survivable with a 3+ save against almost all shooting, and troll if you ever roll protect with a 2+ armour save.

The reason mantle is very good is because it means that you will never give away warlord points unless you over extend the autarch, as you are unlikely to fail 3 2+ re-rollables and any anti-tank fire shot at him is practically wasted if they are hoping for an ID. He doesn't even fear a heldrake much with T4 and 4++. He acts as a scalpel which you turbo boost into jetbike melta range ( 6+ 12 movement) of something expensive or into charge range ( 12 + around 7- 8 inches) of a troop unit that can't fight back (Lonely MEQ's, fire warriors, artillery) so the enemy has to react to him or he will mess up there plan. With a 48 inch move he can be in combat to any unit on the table in 2 turns. This scares a lot of armies who can't deal with him (Only ones I can think of are tau with cover ignore or horde armies with nothing to harass). The Shining spears are scary on there own, able to also threaten any combat turn 2. Both able to mince infantry and threaten tanks, make sure to buy hit and run exarch power! Oh, mantle also grants hit and run.

I'm also tempted to suggest a night spinner, who is now much better anti tank then it used to be, still able to mince infantry and can now snipe using barrage rules. I think when only using a single vehicle, the nightspinner out shines prism because it doesn't need line of sight, making it more survivable. You already have ample anti tank with solitaire having an 18 inch melta threat range, strength 6 rear armour hits on the charge and haywire grenades to top it off. Spears make nice transport hunters, strength 6 really pulls a number on rear armour, while all your scoring needs could be handled by cheap GJB squads.

Ok thanks for the clarification. I'm not looking to scale up at the moment as I'm limited by money and our competition is only 750pts anyway but thanks for the advice. Also if it helps we won't be using very much cover that will block LOS (which I know puts my sneaky bikers at a disadvantage but hey ) so I'm thinking that fire prism would be more versatile as s9 ap1 lance(I think) provides accurate, powerful, ranged anti tank( I say accurate because scatter dice seem to hate me) and str 6 even with +1 strength can't touch land raiders whereas prism lance can easily pen and they both can shred infantry to pieces.

I'm really loving the look of the mantle (but it really sucks that he can't join the spears for ultimate win) although one of my friends MIGHT be running tau . Does it have to modelled on in any way? If so, how? Also, could I run a farseer with a singing spear? He could provide some great buffs for the spears (I'm thinking guide and prescience and then maybe a roll on fate (fortune or doom would be really good) instead of autarch to join the spears (yay! Shining council! ). Also, is the mantle one of the new remnants of glory things(don't know much about them but I understand that any hq can take them so maybe the farseer could take the mantle and ride long side the spears while guiding/presciencing them. Also if farseer rolls fortune could this stack with your re roll cover saves from that mantle cos three re rolls on a 2+ is just insane

One more thing, and its quite big, my necron friend wants to take a flyer, or maybe even two I know that he won't have many points and thus the ret of his army will be quite bad but I still don't know what to do!?! Do I have to redo my whole list? Or should I just try and avoid him with my jetbikes of supreme turbo-boosting?

 DauntedFungus12345 wrote:
One more thing, and its quite big, my necron friend wants to take a flyer, or maybe even two I know that he won't have many points and thus the ret of his army will be quite bad but I still don't know what to do!?! Do I have to redo my whole list? Or should I just try and avoid him with my jetbikes of supreme turbo-boosting?

Probably just avoid him. With lots of points invested in flyers in a 750 point game he won't have much else, and you have the speed to get in close and wipe those few units off the table. But really that's your only viable plan, you don't have the points to take effective AA and still have your expensive jetbike unit.

Honestly, I'm gonna disagree with some of the suggestions made here.

Windrider Guardians (the jetbikes) are a fantastic unit on their own now with the changes to Shuriken weapons along with the improvement to their basic statline. Units of 3 as last-minute objective grabbers are good for that purpose, but that line of thinking should only be taken when you're fleshing out a list and want to tack them on for exactly that reason. But this in no way demeans their effectiveness as a squad of 6-9.

At this points level, the players who are really going to win are the players who take the best troops. For that reason, the other units (Spears, Vypers, Prisms, etc) should only be considered to flesh out a serious need that your Troops simply can't fulfill. I'd go for at least 3 Troop squads if you can, and then look at how to tackle your anti-air or anti-tank problem. If your friend is going to be taking a mini-Necron Airforce then ignoring them simply may not be an options: he could easily take min warrior squads to sit in the Scythes for last-minute objective grabbing, and still have a fleshed-out, well-rounded force that you'd have to deal with. Nevermind the fact that those Tesla-Destructors will dole out some serious hurt in and of themselves.

A Fire Prism is not a bad option at all due to the sheer versatility of it, but you may find it underwhelming and gets focused down too easily (being the only armor in the list). If you take the Prism, a couple of Vypers wouldn't be a half bad way to alleviate the above problems but you'll have to be clever in protecting them. Likewise a unit of Shining Spears can do you some good, bailing your Guardians out of assaults, but for that purpose I'd recommend keeping them small: say 3 with an Autarch.

Something to consider is a single Crimson Hunter. With an Autarch you can try to hold it back until that Night Scythe comes on, and then blast it out of the sky. What's more, once it's fulfilled its AA purpose the Crimson Hunter becomes fantastic AT, and can even lay the hurt on Infantry at this low points level.

Aside from that, Dark Reapers with an Aegis and Quad gun. Simple, effective, and will work against ALL targets. That third Troop squad could even be a squad of Guardians to hold the home objective behind the Aegis and support the Reapers.

Just my 2 cents

Thank you very much stezerok. You make some very good points. However, all of our lists will only be 750 so an Air Force of night scythes is highly unlikely, I think he'll take a maximum of one and it is highly unlikely as he said it in a jokey tone. Nevertheless I like the idea of a crimson hunter at this points level maybe if I cut down on some spears I could switch it for the prism? Then I'd have some proper anti flyer that can smash tanks but less anti infantry and a lot of points for a very fragile unit (although really cool model)

As with your other suggestions, I think they're all great but first of all I think the defence line and gaurdians/reapers not only ruin the fast moving theme of the army but are also expensive (aegis defence Lin) . You have to remember I am stretched for points so big sinks will need justification. I can't casually take another unit of bikes and a couple of vypers at 750 points but I agree with you on a third unit of gjbs so should I have 4 3 man squads or a six man and 2x 3 man squads?

haha yea, when I said a "mini airforce" I meant like 1 or 2. More of a joke really, but you're right: if he doesn't seem all that serious about it and you don't think others will try to pull something (like even a single helldrake could really ruin peoples day) then you shouldn't worry too much about it.

I can see what you mean about the fast moving theme, and yea, suggesting those was a lapse of memory on my part lol.

I wouldn't discount 3 squads of 6 Windriders so off-hand. It's really not that expensive at all, and you'll want the extra scoring unit.

Like this is a list I was mulling over while thinking about your situation:
Autarch: /w jetbike, and laser lance: 100 pts

Windrider Guardians (6): /w 2x shuriken cannons: 122 pts
Windrider Guardians (6): /w 2x shuriken cannons: 122 pts
Windrider Guardians (6): /w 2x shuriken cannons: 122 pts

Shining Spears (3): /w Exarch: /w Hit and Run: 100 pts
Crimson Hunter Exarch: 180 pts

Fast, keeps with the theme, solid scoring units. Lots of dakka for light tanks, Hunter for heavier stuff and flyers, and the Autarch with Spears to bail out your squads if they get caught somehow. Could even outflank the Spears if you're concerned about them getting focussed early on.

Granted there's definitely nothing wrong with your squad-of-6, two-of-3 set up either. If you go that route you have plenty of points for a variety of other configurations: 4 Spears, and 2 Prisms; Hunter, 4 Spears, and 2 Vypers; or even 2 Prisms and 2 Vypers. Play around with the numbers and figure out what looks like fun to you.

My last point on the 3x6 squads versus the 1x6/2x3 is that if you're going to reserve your 3-man squads as last-minute scoring units then you'll need to be VERY careful: your Spears will take a lot of heat unless you reserve them, and if you do that then you're going to see half your army facing off against most or all of theirs. That's not going to be a very fun first couple of turns.

Thanks a lot you really know how to squeeze the points in there and it looks like a solid list so thanks.

I know this sounds strange but I haven't really read up on the rules for flyers as I've been off 40k for a while and haven't ever played them. I know that they're harder to take down and they only come on at a certain time then go off so first of all could my precious hunter be glanced apart by the lowly bolter? Secondly, could prism or fusion gun on my autarch take down a night scythe (or even my lances but I don't know it's av)

Should I stick with the crimson hunter or should I go back to prism and add another spear or too to help out on the ground?

Yea, I wouldn't worry too much about Bolters, the chances of that happening are VERY slight. The same is true (not to the same extent though) for the Prism Cannon and the Fusion Gun against the Night Scythe. Normal models need 6's to hit Flyers.

That's why I suggested taking the Crimson Hunter personally, since I would've expected (at least in my local area) for people to bring like one or two of the top Flyers (Night Scythes, Heldrakes, Vendettas, etc) just to be pains in the ass. But that's wholly dependent on your area, which you'd know better than I would. If you don't think your friends will play that way, then the Prism and another Spear would be a good alternative.

Ok thanks ill probably stick with the crimson hunter cos I love the model and it will be a surprise for most people (but I don't like how a lucky hit from a good AT weapon can bring it down really easily thus getting rid of my best AT). Also, even though the autarch can manipulate when it comes on, it's still unreliable and it can't stay on very long meaning it really has to be effective while it stays on. What is the best way to use it? (As I said I have no experience with flyers).

Also, I feel like this has been implicitly answered throughout the discussion but could I take a farseer instead of an autarch?. He is less effective in combat but can guide and prescience his unit making them more effective both at shooting and in combat. Although I fear this will make my hunter even less predictable!

Another thing, there's a small possibility that this will need to scale up to 1000 points. Are 16 bikes enough and should I focus on upgrading the rest of the army e.g adding in some prisms or some more spears or do I need another unit of six bikes and then some smaller upgrades like some more spears or some vypers? Remember its a small possibility but just in case

I can't really say what the best way to use the Crimson Hunter is, because it really depends on your opponent. It is very fast, and very agile, and there's a lot you can do with it that other Flyers can't. For target priority, the best way to guarantee the Hunter's safety is to seriously work on taking out any Quad Guns or other anti-air weapons for the first couple of turns, and then do what you can to have the Hunter come on after enemy Flyers so you can get the drop on them once the airways are clear.

This last point is the reason why a Farseer could be good with your army, but an Autarch will serve you better. This is because if you want the Hunter, the Autarch is practically necessary. What's more, Guide/Prescience aren't all that efficient on Windriders since their weapons are twin-linked anyhow (and it's not worth guiding a 6-man squad to reroll 2 Shuriken Cannons while it's wasted on the other 4 guardians imo, you're better off seeing what you can get from the other Divination powers).

Finally for the 1k pts, it's harder to take a 750 pts list and try and fill those 250 pts with useful stuff, than it is to work from the top-down and design the 1k list stand alone imo. But I'm assuming by 16 bikes you mean: 6+3+3WGJBs+3Spears+1Autarch right? At which point, for 1k I think you could stand to add 3 Windriders to one of the small squads, giving you 2x6 WGJBs, 1x3 WGJBs, and the 1x3 Shining Spears. 3 models may not seem like a big improvement, but it may make a world of difference. Doing that would still leave you with 190 some-odd points to play around with.

Anyhow, I hope this all helps!

Ok thanks a lot for all the help!