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Eyjio wrote:
Well... yeah. D weapons were made so that Gargantuans and Super Heavies have a counter.

There's a difference between "having a counter" and "being countered so thoroughly that taking one is pointless". GCs are pointless when 750 point turbolaser Warhounds exist, and the C'tan is never going to survive long enough to have more than a single shooting phase.

If you ever played Apoc with a 2+/3++ Hierophant, you'll understand why D weapons now ignore invs and do so many wounds (actually it's like, 3.7 wounds per hit but that's still a good amount).

I'd say you have bigger problems than game balance if your opponent is blatantly rules lawyering (cheating, TBH) and giving their titan a 3++ when it shouldn't have one.

Hordes getting cover?

KFF, area terrain, allied DA characters/psykers depending on your choice of horde army. Orks always have a 5+ cover save at least, IG always have a 4++ at least. I guess maybe you kill Tyranids, but who brings swarm Tyranids to a game that's probably going to end before they get to assault anything relevant?

It's not exactly like S10 AP1 is bad vs vehicles either

AP 2 you mean. And yes, it really is, since most vehicles in Apocalypse are AV 14. You can shoot it at a vehicle if you have to, but you'll really wish it was a D-weapon.

You should find a group and play a small Apoc game with them.

Your mistake is assuming that I've never played Apocalypse. I have (those superheavies aren't just for display), I've just concluded that it's an unbalanced mess and the new rules make its problems even worse.

 Peregrine wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
Well... yeah. D weapons were made so that Gargantuans and Super Heavies have a counter.

There's a difference between "having a counter" and "being countered so thoroughly that taking one is pointless". GCs are pointless when 750 point turbolaser Warhounds exist, and the C'tan is never going to survive long enough to have more than a single shooting phase.

Well, that's in no way true but sure, whatever floats your boat. This is about as ridiculous as me saying "there's no point in taking AV13+ when longstrike railheads/deep striking melta hunters/haywire necron drops/flying MCs exist". It's just not true. Just because something can take out super heavies very efficiently doesn't make all others pointless. It also paints it as a massive target, so you'd need more than one to make a big impact.

If you ever played Apoc with a 2+/3++ Hierophant, you'll understand why D weapons now ignore invs and do so many wounds (actually it's like, 3.7 wounds per hit but that's still a good amount).

I'd say you have bigger problems than game balance if your opponent is blatantly rules lawyering (cheating, TBH) and giving their titan a 3++ when it shouldn't have one.

Your assumption that we didn't know that the Warp Field specifies Zoanthropes and decided to let it slide because the other person was cheating (especially at a time when all tyranid MCs were ID'd by even being clipped by any Str D) is wrong. In fact, he raised it with us before the game suggesting that we used the intended old Warp Field, and we told him to take the 3++ in the name of having a fun battle. You know what? It was.

Hordes getting cover?

KFF, area terrain, allied DA characters/psykers depending on your choice of horde army. Orks always have a 5+ cover save at least, IG always have a 4++ at least. I guess maybe you kill Tyranids, but who brings swarm Tyranids to a game that's probably going to end before they get to assault anything relevant?

KFF is a 5+, so worse. The psykers give a 4++/5++ so that's equal or worse. Orks do NOT have a 5++ at least, neither does IG have a 4++ (unless you've figured out a way to take multiple Azraels or blob guardsmen into groups of more than 50). You are also making sure the enemy laughs at you by assuming you'll have cover that can be sniped out of your unit with barrage weapons - which are everywhere in Apoc. EVERYONE who plays nids brings a swarm because of the endless swarm datasheet making them so powerful. I mean really, did you look at the old one? Have you seen the new one? If you brought 20 Warhounds and they took 20 Endless Swarms of equal point costs, they win. It's pretty much automatic actually as from T3+ you can't even shoot at them any more and they get to recycle units. Wasn't true with old Apoc, but Without Number was so hilariously broken until the FAQ (and good after) it was worth taking regardless.

It's not exactly like S10 AP1 is bad vs vehicles either

AP 2 you mean. And yes, it really is, since most vehicles in Apocalypse are AV 14. You can shoot it at a vehicle if you have to, but you'll really wish it was a D-weapon.

Yeah, AP2, my mistake. Where are you playing where people are taking mass AV14? I mean, aside from Leman Russ companies, you may as well just throw your points away. Sure, super heavies do but as has been said many times, D weapons are for super heavies, melta hunters are for super heavies and vortexes (which I guess are also D now) are for super heavies. No, most normal vehicles are AV10-12 (Rhinos, Chimeras, side shots on most things, etc) as they're there for the sole purpose of blocking foot troop LOS and advancing quickly. S10 AP2 will put a nice dent into them. Most of the time, you won't be firing at vehicles specifically anyway, they'll be splash from the sides of you 10" blast template, so it's a bit silly to keep talking about them.

You should find a group and play a small Apoc game with them.

Your mistake is assuming that I've never played Apocalypse. I have (those superheavies aren't just for display), I've just concluded that it's an unbalanced mess and the new rules make its problems even worse.

Eyjio wrote:
Well, that's in no way true but sure, whatever floats your boat. This is about as ridiculous as me saying "there's no point in taking AV13+ when longstrike railheads/deep striking melta hunters/haywire necron drops/flying MCs exist". It's just not true. Just because something can take out super heavies very efficiently doesn't make all others pointless. It also paints it as a massive target, so you'd need more than one to make a big impact.

You're missing the difference between "capable of killing", like Longstrike vs. LRBTs, and "almost guaranteed to kill in a single shot", like C'tan vs. turbolaser Warhounds.

Your assumption that we didn't know that the Warp Field specifies Zoanthropes and decided to let it slide because the other person was cheating (especially at a time when all tyranid MCs were ID'd by even being clipped by any Str D) is wrong. In fact, he raised it with us before the game suggesting that we used the intended old Warp Field, and we told him to take the 3++ in the name of having a fun battle. You know what? It was.

That was very nice of you to let him have a 3++. But you can't use a house ruled 3++ as a reason why D-weapons needed to be more powerful against GCs.

It's pretty much automatic actually as from T3+ you can't even shoot at them any more and they get to recycle units.

This would actually mean something if you had a reasonable expectation of an Apocalypse game lasting three turns. When you're only going to play 1-2 turns a swarm army that has to take 1-2 turns before it can charge anything is a waste of points.

No, most normal vehicles are AV10-12 (Rhinos, Chimeras, side shots on most things, etc) as they're there for the sole purpose of blocking foot troop LOS and advancing quickly.

Again, 1-2 turn game. A Rhino is a waste of points that needs to be turned into a LC Predator because it will never get a chance to deploy its passengers.

As I'm editing anyway though, you keep telling us how broken Titans are. So, how do you intend to protect it from all of the following:
1) Deepstriking enemies (unless you feel like blowing yourself up, more Str D blasts are a pretty terrible idea)
2) Fast melta, whether on flyers or drop pods or deep striking - whatever
3) Flyers in general, especially Tau and Space Marine super heavies
4) Endless Swarm formations
5) Being forced to fire at your own units due to Word Bearer/Daemon assets
6) Orbital Strikes

1) Warp quake.
2) Warp quake.
3) AA guns/flyers, and ignoring any flyer that isn't a Vendetta/Scythe/railshark.
4) The game ending before they can do anything.
5) This incredibly stupid and anti-fun idea being removed from the game.
6) Who cares, nothing can protect against these.

Oh, let's not forget you're also assuming you can draw LOS to the target at all times and that every model is on the ground floor, so your boards are all barren wastes with no ruins or LOS blocking terrain.

That's actually a pretty good description of the average Apocalypse table.

When you need objectives to win and you cannot seriously tell me you can table the enemy with large blasts (especially when you can't even kill any flyer), how do you propose to ever win?

You're either missing the point, or making a ridiculous straw man. I never said that your entire army should consist of nothing but turbolaser Warhounds, I said that any unit that can take a D-weapon does take a D-weapon. If you buy a Warhound you're arming it with turbolasers. If you buy a Baneblade kit you're building it as a Shadowsword. Etc. And this is very bad for game balance because big expensive things that carry D-weapons are much better than any big expensive thing that doesn't, regardless of how many big expensive things you want in your army.

 Peregrine wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
As I'm editing anyway though, you keep telling us how broken Titans are. So, how do you intend to protect it from all of the following:
1) Deepstriking enemies (unless you feel like blowing yourself up, more Str D blasts are a pretty terrible idea)
2) Fast melta, whether on flyers or drop pods or deep striking - whatever
3) Flyers in general, especially Tau and Space Marine super heavies
4) Endless Swarm formations
5) Being forced to fire at your own units due to Word Bearer/Daemon assets
6) Orbital Strikes

1) Warp quake.
2) Warp quake.
3) AA guns/flyers, and ignoring any flyer that isn't a Vendetta/Scythe/railshark.
4) The game ending before they can do anything.
5) This incredibly stupid and anti-fun idea being removed from the game.
6) Who cares, nothing can protect against these.

In response to Peregrine:
1) That's a decent idea.
2) Does nothing to bikes, or equivalent.
3) Which AA guns or flyers? And watch out for those Heldrakes, they can remove your Interceptor Squads and your Warp Quake.
4) You have this ridiculous idea that an Apocalypse game never gets to Turn 3. Please stop repeating it, it makes you look extremely immature. What if the game continues to Turn 3, Peregrine? How do you counter the passage of time?
5) How do you feel about Anrakyr's Mind in the Machine? Shall we all start cherry-picking other army's strategic assets? "No, I think it would give you an advantage, so you can't take that!"
6) So the titans have weaknesses!

When you're only going to play 1-2 turns

1-2 turns

1

How many points do you play, and for how long? Seriously, if you only get 1 turn, you've something up. I've managed to get 2 turns of a 5000 point battle done in 1.5 hours.

 Peregrine wrote:
You're missing the difference between "capable of killing", like Longstrike vs. LRBTs, and "almost guaranteed to kill in a single shot", like C'tan vs. turbolaser Warhounds.

If by single shot you mean the entire shooting from 750 points, sure. Think of what else 750 points gets and tell me honestly that the Titan is better than it. Is it better than, say, 6 Vendettas? 7 Night Scythes? 11 Broadsides? 15 DSing 2x Fusion Blaster Crisis Suits? It can do more damage with a single turn, sure, but it has crippling weaknesses and substantially lower durability than any of them. Plus, as soon as the C'tan is in combat (either T1 if you're second or T2 if you go first) it cannot be shot by your Titans. Same with the Stompa or Lord of Skulls. Some super heavys are weak, but don't say it's pointless to take them when it really isn't.

That was very nice of you to let him have a 3++. But you can't use a house ruled 3++ as a reason why D-weapons needed to be more powerful against GCs.

Many other people used the same house rule but you are quite correct. So, let's look at Scabeiathrax the bloated, greater daemon of decay instead. T9, W6, 4++. When it gets into combat, it can and will be unstoppable. 777 points. D weapons used to do 1 wound per hit. Any other type of wound granted him FNP. It was insanely unfair. Now, Str D used to generally cause SP loss on a 3+, which was equivalent to 3HP, then grant another roll if you rolled 4+. Instead, it now causes d3+1 HP loss on a 2-5 and 6+d6 on a 6 - this is actually less severe as the average damage done is less. Not only that, but you could lose SP from glances before, which essentially only happens every 3 glances now. D weapons are now WORSE vs Super Heavies, but much better vs Gargantuans - in fact, GCs are now basically Super Heavies with extra rules and are priced as such. Before, GCs were strictly better than all non-Titans, which were only better because of access to Mass Str D and even then, a few GCs were still better than even Titans. Now, the playing field is level.

This would actually mean something if you had a reasonable expectation of an Apocalypse game lasting three turns. When you're only going to play 1-2 turns a swarm army that has to take 1-2 turns before it can charge anything is a waste of points.

Huh? The last Apoc game I played (which admittedly was almost 7 months ago now, I've been doing university stuff) we got to turn 6 before we called it at 9PM and that was 50000 points. Maybe you just got slow played? My group is pretty experienced but even so, games speed up the longer they go on (because there are less models and the ones on objective hiding tend not to move after the first turns).

Again, 1-2 turn game. A Rhino is a waste of points that needs to be turned into a LC Predator because it will never get a chance to deploy its passengers.

You're not using it for passengers, you're using it as a 35 point thing that stops you being targeted at ground level - for example, forming a wall of difficult terrain (or in 6e an actual wall now I guess) around an objective to stop enemies. People like to say points don't matter in Apoc, but unless you're playing "throw everything you own at the table" then that is an enormous lie you shouldn't believe. 35 points to help yourself win is 35 points well spent. At the end of the day, if you cram 10 predators together and a D blast lands on you either by accident or targeting, those extra costs (3 times as much) are a waste. Of course, if you need more anti tank then yeah, you'd be wise to make a few LC preds but generally it's pointless.

1) Warp quake.
2) Warp quake.
3) AA guns/flyers, and ignoring any flyer that isn't a Vendetta/Scythe/railshark.
4) The game ending before they can do anything.
5) This incredibly stupid and anti-fun idea being removed from the game.
6) Who cares, nothing can protect against these.

1) So you're taking Grey Knight allies? Okay, that's cool. In which case, you need to protect them as well. That's at least 20 points per marine with no useful formation in a game where formations are key and marines die like flies to AP3/2 apocalyptic blasts
2) Won't protect from people dropping out of flyers.
3) If the enemy gets T1, that's not a choice. You need a way to stop it dying, which is usually an asset. That's where I was trying to lead you - the oppertunity cost is much higher
4) See above, never been a problem for me
5) It's in the game precisely to stop Titan spam. Why exactly should it be removed? It's useful.
6) See 3. They aren't hard to come by either, anyone fielding a marine company gets them. A few CSM things grant them to. Again - the cost to field the Titan seems low but it's a lot of points into one unit which is extremely hard to protect.

That's actually a pretty good description of the average Apocalypse table.

Uhh, not really. Not in my experience. Those were just 2 random boards I pulled up and they've got plenty of scenery on. That's about the amount I see in my games too - we all just bring a few bits of terrain and the board is full in no time.

You're either missing the point, or making a ridiculous straw man. I never said that your entire army should consist of nothing but turbolaser Warhounds, I said that any unit that can take a D-weapon does take a D-weapon. If you buy a Warhound you're arming it with turbolasers. If you buy a Baneblade kit you're building it as a Shadowsword. Etc. And this is very bad for game balance because big expensive things that carry D-weapons are much better than any big expensive thing that doesn't, regardless of how many big expensive things you want in your army.

You've said there's little point in taking hordes and that Titans break the game so I didn't think I was making a massive jump. I've already argued against the Warhound one. Whilst the Baneblade itself is rarely worth it, the Stormlord is. So is the Stormsword. So is the Doomhammer. The ability to ignore an inv and do more damage than normal to a vehicle means little when you're able to safely ferry troops and still put out a tremendous amount of fire. In the Stormsword VS Shadowsword case, you pay 30 more points to quadruple the area you cover and get a TL heavy bolter. Once again, D weapons are not the be-all-end-all. I would also argue there's little point in the Tesseract Vault taking the D hellstorm because it puts it at too much risk - a super heavy within 18" of the enemy is a soon-to-be-dead super heavy. The advantage IG super heavies have is they're cheap. In fact, they're the cheapest in the game. Would you spend points on a Shadowsword if you had a 2 TLD Titan? I hope not. Again, it's too specialised - in apoc, large blasts just don't pass muster. At the end of the day, your super heavies will die. It's a near certainty. In fact, most of what you have will die. You need to keep some troops safe - Titans are insufficient. You can scoff at transports and normal tanks or whatever you want; the fact of the matter is it's normally these smaller units that win games. After all, who shoots their Titan's 4 Str D large blasts at 5 guardsmen on an objective when there's 9 Leman Russes in formation nearby? Both are threats that need dealing with, but the Titan is only really suited to one of them. In fact, if your opponent takes neither Super Heavies nor GCs (after all, you keep insisting non-Titan ones are worthless) then indeed there's little reason to take Str D at all - you are effectively just neutering the amount of stuff you kill. No, you need some Str D but maximising it doesn't pay off. That said, if you've only ever gotten to T2 of a game, how could I possibly expect you to know that? You were clearly playing either incompetent players or they really didn't want to play. Heck, a 10k point game of Apoc can be finished (as in, one side decimated and someone calls it) in about 5-6 hours easily. This point is just wrong.

My DE like titans (well blowing them up) Titan hunters all the way and with the new spearhead formation there even better, they go tank hunter and ignore all shields(on a shadow hit) or against GC go preferred enemy with nine lance shots (min size squadron ) they come with shrouded as well so normal shots against them stop on 2+ or if there's a lot o D's around take the can't target me! asset, so for me gargantuans and titans are not a problem. (I often run 2 hunter squadrons).
Though with the ctan kill it quick and it'll wreck all around it a good bonus for me.

On the discussion of formations:

I've recently started a project to build the Exorcists Chapter 3rd Company (which is a battle company, so it has Captain Silas, a Chaplain, a full Company Command Squad, 3 Dreadnoughts, 6 Tact Squads, 2 Assault Squads and 2 Dev Squads), and am building it to the limit of 3k points (the local meta for Apoc). That means the only D weapon my army can actually bring is a single Orbital Strike. Everything else is perfectly standard and legal 40k equipment (I -could- get a second one as a strategic asset, but the point is the D-weapons built into my army itself are pretty limited).

Why would I do this over just taking 2 Reavers and calling it a day? Well because when I put all 110 models on the table, all painted and based, it'll look cooler than hell. Plus it's a collection I'll be able to play regular games with as well.

And that's the thing, Apoc isn't just about bringing the biggest toys, it's about bringing really cool looking things and getting bonuses for having themed collections (GW actually mentioned in a recent bit from "Into the Citadel" that the formations are supposed to be rewards for having themed collections and are to encourage people to do so. That's why all the Marine ones say that all the models need to be from the same company or chapter and why the formations don't have a cost on top of what you pay to put those models into a list). It's a game to let you break out parts of your collection that don't get to be used often, or allow you to have a reason to bring all those named character models you own to a game, or even give you a way to use that Titan you bought because you wanted something cool for your collection.

Back on the original topic: the C'Tan looks pretty beefy and that 18" move with the D-Weapon hit fly-by looks pretty nasty on it's own but he's quite a bit points wise base, and then you have to buy 3 upgrades for him, many of which are over a hundred points each. I think he's well balanced and costed and is what a C'Tan should have been all along. Plus you don't -need- the one from the Vault kit, you can just as easily use one of the other C'Tan models (or make you're own) as they're about the same size, providing of course you let your opponent know that the Nightbringer you brought is actually the C'Tan from the book instead.

Skullhammer wrote:
My DE like titans (well blowing them up) Titan hunters all the way and with the new spearhead formation there even better, they go tank hunter and ignore all shields(on a shadow hit) or against GC go preferred enemy with nine lance shots (min size squadron ) they come with shrouded as well so normal shots against them stop on 2+ or if there's a lot o D's around take the can't target me! asset, so for me gargantuans and titans are not a problem. (I often run 2 hunter squadrons).
Though with the ctan kill it quick and it'll wreck all around it a good bonus for me.

The what asset? It's true though, that DE Ravager formation is brutal. Tank Hunters+shrouded+lance will make mincemeat of pretty much whatever it hits.

ClockworkZion wrote:
And that's the thing, Apoc isn't just about bringing the biggest toys, it's about bringing really cool looking things and getting bonuses for having themed collections (GW actually mentioned in a recent bit from "Into the Citadel" that the formations are supposed to be rewards for having themed collections and are to encourage people to do so. That's why all the Marine ones say that all the models need to be from the same company or chapter and why the formations don't have a cost on top of what you pay to put those models into a list). It's a game to let you break out parts of your collection that don't get to be used often, or allow you to have a reason to bring all those named character models you own to a game, or even give you a way to use that Titan you bought because you wanted something cool for your collection.

This too. You need a friendly group to play it with and who's gaming standards you agree to. If you pick it up with someone who's WAAC, first of all they'll probably lose and then whine but secondly they'll be no fun - in a prolonged game, not being entertaining is totally inexcusable, moreso than in a normal game.


Plus, old Apocalypse was far more broken at release. Anyone who played a 3 Pylon army before the new Necron codex can testify to how much nonsense they were. Oh hey, a super heavy in the middle of my units that can't mishap. Well, I don't want Str D blasts to scatter over my guys so I'll use meltaguns. What's that? It ignores melta and lance, plus has a 5++? Well, what's it armed with? 3 Str D shots or d6 S6 AP3 shots against all units within 18"? 420 points? You're kidding, right? Yeah, it kinda went something like that.

Shield generator asset (you can't target me) oh and it's a 3+ not 2 I was thinking of turbo boosting at the time.

Formations are good and thankfully this time around they don't cost any extra points. For my group this is a bonus as we don't have the time for bring everything battles so we set a points limit around 3-4k per player and do a 2 on 2 type missions.

If you are playing 3k points without formations that fits into a single force org why play apoc at all?

As far as I can see it just means you need to be that buch more carefull about who you play and what you allow over a normal game (and 40k is not exactly the gold standard in even handed rules).

 dragqueeninspace wrote:
If you are playing 3k points without formations that fits into a single force org why play apoc at all?

As far as I can see it just means you need to be that buch more carefull about who you play and what you allow over a normal game (and 40k is not exactly the gold standard in even handed rules).

Super heavies, Gargantuan Creatures, and the lack of compulsory FOC slots for a force that size. For example, he could take a force made up entirely vehicles, no HQs, etc.

Anyway, I thought he said he was taking formations, as in "it's good they don't cost anything, because we set a points limit; this means I can now bring more stuff."

Plus it 2 a side so it's more like 6-8k per side that is not a standard game size that I'm aware of. And yes with my DE I like to bring a full fluff raider force everything in vehicles and it's a total blast. Were as with my nids I love bringing hundreds of gaunts (of both types) it's what I see in my head when reading there background, sure in game blasts are killer but so many bodies and targets, and to me that's apoc, having a blast and a good time. Winning is a nice bonus but the sight of dozens of raiders or hundreds of gaunts carpeting the table is so damn good.

Nothing stops 40k scaling to 3k+ points, the balance goes out the window but to claim balance in the apoc rules implies a playtesting involving a meta viable only with frighteningly strong psychotropic susbstances affecting all players. Although I'm still not sure anything it has can top buy two titans get one free from the old space marine/titan legions game.

The apoc rules exist to rubber stamp armies and models that otherwise have no place in typical 40k games, like thunderhawks and titans.

 dragqueeninspace wrote:
If you are playing 3k points without formations that fits into a single force org why play apoc at all?

As far as I can see it just means you need to be that buch more carefull about who you play and what you allow over a normal game (and 40k is not exactly the gold standard in even handed rules).

I'm guessing this was aimed at me since I brought it up building a 3k army for local play. 3k is the meta per player with games often involving 4 or 5 players a side. This means the games being played are actually 12k-15k in points a side. I plan to build beyond the 3k, but it's a good starting point I think, and my list just happens to fit FOC, you can build a Marine Company of 10 Assault or Devestator squads if you want, but because I wanted to put Captain Silas on the board (who is the Exorcists' 3rd company commander during the Badab War) I wanted to be true to the fluff, which meant fielding a battle company, which happens to fit inside FOC. And it is a formation. They all get the bonus of counter attack, can overwatch for each other much like Tau and get a free orbital strike (so you still get another asset on top of that to boot), so it's not exactly a bad formation.

I'd just like to raise the point that I recently played a Vassal game, 10k points, in which I took a double-Turbolaser warhound, a Turbolaser-blastgun Warhound, a double-Blastgun warhound, and a Vulcan-Inferno Warhound, along with a pair of Reavers with balanced loadouts and a Warlord with a balanced loadout. Oh, and three Marauder Destroyers just because.

Against me was something like twelve homebrewed Gargantuan Creatures with strength D close combat attacks and relatively poor shooting, along with three flights of Razorwings.

I slaughtered him. I lost a grand total of one Reaver because I kept the double-armed Warhounds in reserve. Other than that, I killed one or two Gargantuans a turn, and the three Marauders slaughtered the nine Razorwings.

What did the damage? Vortex Missiles, Turbolasers, Volcano Cannons and Laser Blasters. What did absolutely nothing? Blastguns, Vulcans, Inferno Guns and Gatling Blasters.

D-weapons invalidate everything else on the field.

So you played a horrendously unbalanced shooting list which could be beaten by almost any flyer heavy list, anything that could block your line of sight or anything which could drop melta in your face and won against an assault oriented army? What do you want me to say, congratulations on killing paper with scissors?

Str D is designed to kill Gargantuans and Super Heavies. If one side takes a lot of GCs and the other SHs with Str D, yet the GCs do nothing until they get into assault, guess which one wins every time? Your opponent had what, 21 models in a 10k apocalypse list? Come on. If you're going to make such sweeping statements, try playing more than 1 game and make it against someone who thinks that maybe only taking 21 models is a bad idea. That's like me going "I had a fight against someone who brought only Titans and I took 2000 termagants so he couldn't kill them all before they were in assault so I auto-won" or "Pylons are so OP, I took 23 and tabled my opponent who only took flyers". What would've happened if he'd taken 12 Thunderhawks with TLDs? What if he'd taken 5 Mantas? If he'd taken 12 units of vanguard veterans, how would you do anything locked in assault? What about 769 Necron Warriors in 15 different Infinite Phalanxes? None of them are less balanced than your list. Either you tailored or got very lucky but either way it's hardly a fair representation. Did he use blind barrage? How about shield generator? Both should have protected him. Even people who complain Titans are unfair know that they need bubble wrap protection, yet you ran none. No gak that blastguns, vulcans, inferno guns and gatling blasters - all things designed to mow down hordes with unrivalled superiority - cannot compete with weapons specifically designed to kill GCs when they're being fired at GCs. Anything that could deny you LOS would beat you. DSing units beat you. Melta hunters beat you. Hordes beat you. Flyers beat you. FMCs beat you. Night fight cripples you. Tiger Sharks utterly wreck you. You faced none, so you won. Well done. You've shown that Str D does the job it was designed to do. This is all without mentioning every single thing in your list gives a VP away, as do most in his.

Now go play against someone with the foresight to not be an idiot who takes assaulty big units against a list designed to kill big units at long range. Heck, go play pretty much any 10k point Necron list. The people I've seen complaining are saying that Titans are too easy to kill, not unbeatably good. They're barely tougher than a Baneblade (just as tough if you can score 2 glances with anything before firing at them) yet cost almost 1.5 times as much because its shooting is better. That's it. Their strength is shooting. They cannot live assault, they cannot escape assault and they're not super tough. They DO have good shooting, but that's all. How do you stop drop pod melta? How do you not die to flyers? What's your plan against MSU anti-vehicle hordes who hide out of LOS like scarabs? How do you prevent flank marches standing next to you so that you either get assaulted or have to fire Str D blasts near your own Titans? Did you use any terrain? Am I also to assume that because neither of you had an HQ, you had no Warlord, hence Warmaster, hence any access to Finest Hours or Divine Interventions?

D weapons invalidate everything - as long as it's a SH/GC, your opponent brings very few units and you are playing on at least a 6' across board. In any other situation, you need back up. Consider this - if your opponent had hidden units out of LOS on most of the objectives and not brought any SHs, he would have almost auto-won. Why? You can't get close, you can't shoot them and if he kills ANY of your models, he gets VP whilst you cannot claim any. Either you both played very poorly with foolish, easily beatable lists OR you didn't actually play the game at all. I know which one I'm betting on.

I think the biggest issue is that Str D weapons are so widely available and basically invalidate a lot of the more interesting models in Apoc (who coincidentally tend to have a lot of Str D themselves). It was a really stupid design choice, especially since they made all of those fortification choices completely useless. The most expensive building in the known universe gets skunked on a 2+ by a single Str D hit (which Marines can evidentially carry around on derps, no less) which come on many inexpensive platforms. The Superheavies at least have a fair amount of Hull Points (and the Eldar Titans get some form of save), but anything GC or building like just gets autosnuffed. I get that they want stuff to die like crazy in Apoc, but having your 1200 point Biotitan get punked by Sgt Derpenstien with a Vortex Grenade from a Drop Pod is taking it too far.

Really, they need to rethink the balance on Str D or every single game of apoc is going to degenerate into the guy getting first turn carpeting the opponent in D Templates and auto winning as a result.

This all assumes, of course, that you want some semblance of balance in Apoc....

 Phazael wrote:
I think the biggest issue is that Str D weapons are so widely available and basically invalidate a lot of the more interesting models in Apoc (who coincidentally tend to have a lot of Str D themselves). It was a really stupid design choice, especially since they made all of those fortification choices completely useless. The most expensive building in the known universe gets skunked on a 2+ by a single Str D hit (which Marines can evidentially carry around on derps, no less) which come on many inexpensive platforms. The Superheavies at least have a fair amount of Hull Points (and the Eldar Titans get some form of save), but anything GC or building like just gets autosnuffed. I get that they want stuff to die like crazy in Apoc, but having your 1200 point Biotitan get punked by Sgt Derpenstien with a Vortex Grenade from a Drop Pod is taking it too far.

Really, they need to rethink the balance on Str D or every single game of apoc is going to degenerate into the guy getting first turn carpeting the opponent in D Templates and auto winning as a result.

This all assumes, of course, that you want some semblance of balance in Apoc....

If someone shows up with that many Str D weapons, say "No, I'm not gonna play that, remake your list". Apocalypse is supposed to be FUN, not some WAAC tournament hardcore balance Korean Starcraft mode. Just put some restrictions in place when you play Apocalypse, like limiting the amount of Str D weaponry. It's really easy.

 Marzillius wrote:
If someone shows up with that many Str D weapons, say "No, I'm not gonna play that, remake your list". Apocalypse is supposed to be FUN, not some WAAC tournament hardcore balance Korean Starcraft mode. Just put some restrictions in place when you play Apocalypse, like limiting the amount of Str D weaponry. It's really easy.

Ah yes, the classic "you're not having fun the right way" argument. Maybe instead GW should do their job as professional game designers and make a balanced game that doesn't require shunning anyone who cares "too much" about winning?

 Peregrine wrote:
Ah yes, the classic "you're not having fun the right way" argument. Maybe instead GW should do their job as professional game designers and make a balanced game that doesn't require shunning anyone who cares "too much" about winning?

Yes, someone bringing 7 Titans is clearly a sign that GW should redo their stuff.

Things are impossible to balance at 1.5k, let alone 10k points.

The chance of a Hierophant dying in one hit to a single Str D shot (assuming it hits) is 1/12. The chance of a 9HP SH dying in one hit is 1/9. Certainly not much to rely on (pretty similar to hoping a Wraithknight will ID the Swarmlord for example) and on average it takes 3 Str D hits for both. IMO the Hierophant should be a little stronger but I can see why it isn't - once it's in combat, it's basically the destroyer of worlds. Str D is designed specifically to kill other big units - those other units tend to have it so they can't be ignored. It's one of those circular loops - I need Str D to kill this thing, so I should spend VP from killing it to bring back my guy, so they kill you and bring back their thing, etc. It sounds far less balanced than it plays. The first turn alpha strike has always been a thing in apoc (and indeed any 40k game - it's a side effect of the UGOIGO system) but in this edition it's far easier to mitigate - unless you're playing a truly colossal game, the combination of deep striking reserves, flyers, blind barrage and shield generator is enough to keep most things on the board. On another forum, someone had the same experience I had in my 2nd ever game - so much anti-shooting insurance was used that the entire first turn was little more than a few immediate assaults, a few dog fights and mass positioning of units. Mass Str D is very, very overrated. It is utterly devastating, no-one will deny that. However, it's a lot harder to get than most people think - it's all either large formations, assets that cost VP or super heavies that give away VP. It's also almost all blasts, so if you have some way of forcing snap shots (cough endless swarms cough) then they can't even shoot you.

7 Titans, as I've said above, is a very poor list indeed. When I think an upscale of my beginning of 6e 2k points list could beat it as it has a lot of flyers and haywire/gauss spam, something has gone wrong. It's so weak, I reckon I could table it within 3 turns and probably not lose a single unit by application of NF, shield gen and blind barrage. How? Because I'd run 9 Scythes of 5 warriors+5 attached storm crypteks due to unlimited overlords. Each Scythe has enough glancing to kill a Titan in a turn, which then gives me VP whilst I'd have no SHs to give away any. That'd mean to beat me, I'd need to be tabled... which can't be done by blasts as there's 9 flyers. At least Eldar Titans pretend to be tough vs glancing by way of holofields. Rocks don't work in 40k - not in normal games, not in Apocalypse. It's not like that'd unbalance my list either - that''s 3500 points including the overlords, not even a third of the allocated 10k. What's that get you, 2 Reavers and a Warhound? Meanwhile, they can't destroy the Scythes, so they will deploy the men safely and in total all 9 squads should average 90 glances and 20 pens, of which ~3.33 should be explodes, adding on another 7 or so hull points of damage. All told, that's 117 HP damage, 60 men on the table and 9 flyers. For the cost of 2 Reavers and a Warhound, there's enough shooting to kill over 5. If you use the Scythes to down the holofields (you should) then that's 16 void shields gone. Adding on 18 more HP damage and you see that on average you kill 6 Reavers, yet cannot be countered at all. You tell me - is it a good idea to only bring things like this? Are D weapons so good that you think you could table 6500 points of hiding models on turn 1? No. The fact is that this force kills 8700 points for 3500 and it isn't an unreasonable thing to expect as it only requires 45 cryptek, 45 warriors, 9 overlords and 9 flyers - any Necron Apoc player worth their salt will almost certainly have all of these except perhaps the Crypteks which are dead easy conversion work. D weapons couldn't table the on board presence on turn 1, at which point it's too late as then the flyers arrive which you either struggle to hurt (a vulcan mega bolter doesn't even average 1HP of damage) or cannot hurt at all.

Str D is way overhyped and it needs to stop. A 2 TLD warhound can get up to 48 HP off something rolling perfectly and averages 15.6. 12 Stormteks + 15 warriors can get up to 66 and average 32. No, they can't harm GCs, but they are so much more efficient it doesn't even matter. In general, Str D is either a long ranged way to kill big things or a short ranged combat punch. Tailoring normal units is ALWAYS more effective, usually to the tune of half the points. Spamming Str D is a noob trap and should be viewed as such.

I have a quick question,
If you give the C'tan the Strength D Giant Template weapon
does he get to roll a D3 for overwatch hits like a regular template?

They cannot fire overwatch

The whole point of the game was "giant robots vs giant monsters" and it was in honour of Pacific Rim. Yes, we actually played the game. There's no need to be quite so condescending.

The fact remains that since Strength D ignores cover and invulnerable saves and is almost universally large blasts or bigger, there's just no point using anything else. As for not being able to get close, why the hell not? Titan Minimum Range doesn't apply against Gargantuan Creatures, and in any case, both Reavers and the Warlord had TCCWs. Warhounds are incredibly maneuverable (for giant robots), so flanking any cover that could block LoS is hardly an issue, and in any case you can't turtle with an assaulty army and expect to win.

Kangodo wrote:
Yes, someone bringing 7 Titans is clearly a sign that GW should redo their stuff.

You're right, it is. If having seven titans is too powerful then GW needs to either make titans weaker so that having seven of them isn't a problem, or impose clear limits on how many you can take (and no, saying "play nice please" doesn't count).

Things are impossible to balance at 1.5k, let alone 10k points.

Sorry, but no. Things are difficult to balance. The problem is that GW sees themselves as a toy company first and a game company last, the rules are a bunch of random garbage thrown together in a few hours to sell the toys. With professional game design and playtesting it would be possible to balance Apocalypse. But GW never will.

Good balance is needed for tournaments and competitive play.
Friendly play, like Apocalypse was intended for, only needs 'good enough' balance.

And bringing 7 Titans in 10k battle is not 'friendly play'.
Titans need to be strong, maybe a little overpowered, since you are paying so much for them both in points and in cash.
There is hardly anything wrong if you bring one or two titans in a 10k battle, it's the amount that causes the problem.

Eyjio made a good post btw.

Seven stock titans should not be able to slaughter three times that number of specifically homebrewed anti-titan gargantuan creatures.

Why is that hard to agree with?

Some people aren't interested in Apoc (I'm generally not). I don't have the models to make formations because I build lists for 2K maximum in one army and then go to another army. I like a wide swatch of army types versus the 10k+ of one army.

So when Apoc rolls around I dont own GCs or SHs. Therefore it becomes extremely frustrating to fight against them when you have annoying crap like liftadroppas and Str D stuff flying at you.

I get in fluff what Str D is as a weapon. In the game, making you able to take zero saves is boring and frustrating at the same time. Why would I take super cool formations like the Space Wolf Hero Regiment when it can just go splat in one shot with no saves? Hooray, my super fluffy and fun unit gets one shotted on the first turn. Goodie!

Just make D = S10, AP1, Armourbane, Fleshbane, Ignores Cover, Distort, D3 wounds. That's plenty powerful enough, still has all the effect of destroying everything, but you at least get a CHANCE to have some of your stuff survive. It might also stop people from doing D spam because it's good, but not one click win like it is now.

Last Apoc game I played was 9k~ish a side, got through six turns in like 8~9 hours? We actually finished the game, lost by won VP. We kept a Baneblade alive by deploying it on a Skyshield. It was our only SH XD

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Seven stock titans should not be able to slaughter three times that number of specifically homebrewed anti-titan gargantuan creatures.

Why is that hard to agree with?

7x3=12? I mean, you even typed 12 out in words, so you can't say you meant 21, it definitely says twelve. Clearly they weren't anti-titan because they were assault based. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that good long ranged shooting beats low model count assault heavy armies every day of the week in 40k? That's an intentional design choice. You wouldn't call a Tyranid no shooting max MC list a "Tau counter", why would you say assaulty GCs are a Titan counter? Here's the thing - Str D is pretty much the only counter to Gargantuans (unless you count 70 lascannons as a "counter"), so it's very good against them. If you put only GCs against mass Str D, you lose. In a similar vein, if you field only Titans against mass deep strike melta, you lose. If you field mass DS melta vs GCs, you lose. Are you getting it yet? Unless your table was 12" wide, your opponent never had a chance without serious help because you fielded his hard counter list. I mean, hell, he even had more VPs to give up. What did you honestly expect going in? Unless these GCs were W10 with Eldar titan holofields, they were never going to get into a Str D gun line without support. Likewise, your Titans wouldn't live vehicle hunters without support. It's just a really silly match up and your blanket statement you made from the game sounds utterly absurd. A 160 point Tervigon survives a Str D hit on average even. How would you beat 50 Tervigons, etc? You just can't. If I can list about 50 hard counters to your list, how can you possibly draw conclusions about the game? It's like fielding 100 stock marines and then complaining you can't kill a Wraithknight - you were never going to be able to.

The fact remains that since Strength D ignores cover and invulnerable saves and is almost universally large blasts or bigger, there's just no point using anything else. As for not being able to get close, why the hell not? Titan Minimum Range doesn't apply against Gargantuan Creatures, and in any case, both Reavers and the Warlord had TCCWs. Warhounds are incredibly maneuverable (for giant robots), so flanking any cover that could block LoS is hardly an issue, and in any case you can't turtle with an assaulty army and expect to win.

Hammerheads ignore all armour saves and are the best AT Tau get. Why even bother taking anything else?
Voltaic staffs from Necrons are the best pure HP stripping unit in the game. Why ever take any other Crypteks?
Sniper kroot are the single most efficient MC killers in the game. Why bother with anything else?
Wraithknights kill almost any single model in CC and have ID S10 shooting. Why bother taking anything else?

You take other things because it's incredibly dumb not to. TCCWs? Wow, that'll come in handy with your 1 or 2 WS2 attacks at I1. The only things in the current Apocalypse rules with a bigger than large blast D weapon are: Reaver Titans (7"blast, inferior to laser blaster) and Phantom Titans (10" blast, inferior to phantom pulsar). That's it. If you house rule in Warlords again, the onus is on you to balance it. Do you think that big blasts are super good? I mean, you statistically do better with other models. They ignore cover and invs because you get 1 hit per blast, yeah? 1. If you're facing a model with a 3++ inv and wound them 3 times, you've statistically done a similar thing, it's just taken longer to resolve. It turns out that in reality you can get about 30 shots per Str D blast. Which do you think is better, honestly? It's not even a competition. Hell, the best thing to do against a list with mass Titans is exactly what I've been saying over and over - kill one, field no SHs/GCs, give no damns about the game because you already won as long as you've taken 1 flyer. Does that sound OP to you?

Turtle? Who said anything about turtling? Stick the shield generator 12" in front of your line, advance into it. I'd really like to see you move around the 36" LOS wall that is blind barrage too. I take it that you DIDN'T use assets then, as you'd know that if you had. Was there night fight? Was there decent LOS blockers? How wide was the table? What were the GC stats? All make huge differences. Even then, Titans have 1 job - blow stuff up and draw fire. He had no fire, so... just blow stuff up? GG.

Some people aren't interested in Apoc (I'm generally not). I don't have the models to make formations because I build lists for 2K maximum in one army and then go to another army. I like a wide swatch of army types versus the 10k+ of one army.

So when Apoc rolls around I dont own GCs or SHs. Therefore it becomes extremely frustrating to fight against them when you have annoying crap like liftadroppas and Str D stuff flying at you.

Well that's fine. Personally, I enjoy the spectacle of huge armies duking it out. Str D is there to speed up the game. Otherwise, everything would have like, heavy 20 lascannons because that's a great all rounder like S D. Sorry you find it frustrating but it's generally less effective so you should probably win in general. Also, lifta droppas were nerfed to only work on a 5+ as they're BS2

I get in fluff what Str D is as a weapon. In the game, making you able to take zero saves is boring and frustrating at the same time. Why would I take super cool formations like the Space Wolf Hero Regiment when it can just go splat in one shot with no saves? Hooray, my super fluffy and fun unit gets one shotted on the first turn. Goodie!

Yeah, it can - if they have no better targets (so any SH/GCs, Warmaster, Finest Hour to stop, DSing units, fast assault, long ranged AT, etc) AND they roll very well on the Str D chart AND you've left the models in a circle so that they can all be hit AND he can see you AND you aren't protected by a shield generator AND he doesn't scatter then yeah, you can potentially lose all the models in one go. In practice, that doesn't actually happen because he gains little to nothing for killing you.

Just make D = S10, AP1, Armourbane, Fleshbane, Ignores Cover, Distort, D3 wounds. That's plenty powerful enough, still has all the effect of destroying everything, but you at least get a CHANCE to have some of your stuff survive. It might also stop people from doing D spam because it's good, but not one click win like it is now.

So instead of doing 6+D6 wounds on a 6, we insta-kill, it does 1 less wound on average normally, wounds on the same, pens almost the same and does almost as much damage to vehicles? Essentially, the only change you've made is to get rid of the 6 result for GCs/EWs/SHs and made invs super good. In pretty much any other situation, your Str D is about the same. Here's the new issue though - instead of Str D being slightly inferior to mass shooting, you've made it so it's strictly inferior. So... why would you take it? I mean seriously, for 720 points your unit can't one shot any given unit, still expects to die on T1 and yields 1 VP. I understand you don't like Str D but a dedicated Titan still needs to be able to 1 shot something it shoots at, otherwise there's no reason to take it. It's terrible in combat, has no melta protection and is a huge target - it WILL die quickly. With your rules, a 2 TLD Warhound expects to do... 4 wounds to a Hierophant and 2 wounds to a C'tan. So, with the only thing it's good at, it can't do much of anything. In fact, it's barely better at shooting then than the Hierophant. In contrast, the Hierophant is more survivable, better in combat and has no hard counter like a Titan.

Last Apoc game I played was 9k~ish a side, got through six turns in like 8~9 hours? We actually finished the game, lost by won VP. We kept a Baneblade alive by deploying it on a Skyshield. It was our only SH XD

Called it. As I said, noob trap. Str D is designed to speed up shooting and it undeniably does. It is still a bit worse if the opponent is canny though.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Marzillius wrote:
If someone shows up with that many Str D weapons, say "No, I'm not gonna play that, remake your list". Apocalypse is supposed to be FUN, not some WAAC tournament hardcore balance Korean Starcraft mode. Just put some restrictions in place when you play Apocalypse, like limiting the amount of Str D weaponry. It's really easy.

Ah yes, the classic "you're not having fun the right way" argument. Maybe instead GW should do their job as professional game designers and make a balanced game that doesn't require shunning anyone who cares "too much" about winning?

You missed the point. Apocalypse is not a game mode where you are supposed to do your best trying to win. You're supposed to house-rule it and have fun. Watch stuff die and have fun with your friends. There isn't and will never be an Apocalypse tournament. It's in the rulebook.