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I spent some time yesterday looking at this unit, and its huge sticker cost, and I felt like it was kind of confusing. So many rules and options, combined with the random thing. I thought I'd have a sit down and try to math things out a little bit.

Because that's my persuasion, I'll look at possessed compared to khorne berzerkers first. They come in at +7 points per model, have the same fearless, power armor, and 2 attacks base. Then they have -1WS and they also have -1A, because they lack the mark of khorne. On the flip side, though, they get the icon of wrath for free, and you don't need MoK to do it, and it's a bit better. They have the S5 of furious charge, but they don't need the charge to get it, and it works for subsequent turns of combat after the first, and it works in multi-assaults. They also have the reroll assault distance thing, except it's much better because you don't need to reroll both dice, as fleet lets you reroll only the stinkers that you rolled.

So they start out being roughly the same, but then, of course, you have to give them a 5++, a type of durability khorne units can never get, which, in my mind, accounts for most of that +7 points. And then there's that random thing. As best I can tell, the first option (shred) is basically the same thing as being nurgle for a turn. It's a little different, though, because they basically give your opponent -1T, rather than giving you +1, but the end result is sort of the same - you win the toughness fight. Meanwhile, the Ap3 option sort of makes you into 1ksons for a turn. Yes, 1ksons aren't in assault and possessed can't shoot, but the point is that their primary way of delivering attacks is to deliver them at Ap3. Then the last option is sort of khorne and slaanesh put together.

On the 1/3rd of the time that you roll the third option, it's easiest to compare them to berzerkers again. In that case, you spend 7 points more for -1WS, but +1I and a 5++. On the second option, you grossly overpower anything not Sv2+ compared to the berzerkers, of course, having power weapon attacks instead of chainsword attacks (and, unlike terminators, -1 Sv but +1I, FC, and Fleet, and cheaper and more of them). Basically, berzerkers have to pay for chain axes that make the possessed rather competitive on price, and the possessed's Ap is still better. Meanwhile, shred more than makes up for the -1A against monstrous creatures.

This means that you've got a 1/3rd chance of attacking the same kinds of targets that berzerkers handle well, except a tiny bit better and with an invul save, and you've got a 1/3rd chance of doing what berzerkers do much better than berzerkers, and you've got a 1/3rd chance of being able to be less bad against the kinds of targets that berzerkers aren't terribly good against.

Then, of course, the question is if you give them MoK. With a banner and the mark, for the price of 10 possessed, you could get 15 khorne berzerkers. Thanks to the invul save, they're both equally durable against Ap3 weapons or better, but the possessed are, naturally, only 2/3ds as good against everything else. As is the way of khorne, you've got to accept that you're going to take more casualties because you'll do the same damage when you arrive. Is -1WS but +1S and the random thing cause them to do that extra 50% damage required?

Well, against marines and guardsmen, assuming that all of the squad gets in (and no vets), the berzerkers kill 8.8 and 22.5, respectively. With shred, the possessed kill 6.5 and 17.5, and with Ap3, it's 16.9 and 22.5, and with the stat bump is 7 and 18.7. So, interestingly, you've got about a 1 in 3 chance of the possessed just being worse - 2/3ds as good - against its primary target types, both in terms of killing power and survivability. Meanwhile, you have a 1/3rd chance of just erasing whatever you run into short of terminators or Sv2+ monstrous creatures. And you've got a 1/3rd chance to do basically the same damage, but always strike first, thus greatly improving their durability.

But, of course, MoK isn't the only mark you can take. Possessed are, by default, very similar to khorne berzerkers. Imagine, then, you could take khorne berzerkers with other marks in addition to their mark of khorne. MoT possessed, for example, are khorne berzerkers with a 4++. Strangely enough, 1/3rd of the time, they combine berzerkers and 1ksons, having +S and rerolling charge range on the one hand, and having a 4++ and Ap3 attacks on the other. Alternately, you can make them a bit like plague marines with either FNP or +1T, and you can either beat PMs in the toughness game with +1T and shred (or, for that matter, Ap3), or you can beat noise marines being able to have the same number of attacks as khorne berzerkers, at the same strength and ability to get the charge in, AND you're I6, so you're STILL striking first, even against things like noise marines and certain special characters.

And that's what I'm starting to think is the conclusion that's to be drawn from posessed, really. You take the four kinds of cult troops, give them all an icon of wrath and a 5++, and then you roll randomly to see if they're noise marines or berzerkers or 1ksons. And you can also influence with marks, which means that you take a squad that's one of those four cult troops of your choice, and then add the bonuses, and then, randomly, their powers get combined with one of the four cult troops. They could be berzerker-plague marines. They could be noise marine-1ksons.

In this case, you have to spend about 50% more than their respective cult troops, but you get 100% cult troops' power, what with being able to combine two together. What stops this being the bargain of the codex, I suppose, is two things. Firstly, they're no more durable than a single cult troop against small arms and weak heavy weapons. Being able to take FNP AND a 5++ is pretty neat, so they deserve to be more expensive, but still...

The second thing, of course, is that it's random. That's not actually THE biggest drawback in the world, but it's still a drawback. The real problem, though, is that you can randomly double up. As you saw in the math above, if you set up your possessed to be khorne berzerkers and then roll wrong (in this case, shred), rather than being the power of two khorne berzerkers, they're the power of... well... just one khorne berzerker. That's more expensive. Likewise, rolling +1I is going to cut down on the usefulness of both the +I of a MoS, and it's going to make bringing an icon of excess an expensive waste of points (as things that are already dead can't trigger FNP tests, and getting Ap3 is kind of pointless over 1ksons, because you could have been shooting, rather than risking CC, and you'd do it with bullets that start people on fire to boot.

So, for all of this, what can we conclude about possessed? I think the simplest maxim here is that they're a unit that costs 50% more, and does 0% as much damage in the shooting phase for a 1/3rd chance of doing the same damage, and a 2/3rds chance of doing 100% more damage in close combat.

What I think this all means, then, is that possessed are a versatility play. In a 1ksons list, they give you units that still fit the theme of 4++ (and possibly Ap3), but they exchange slow and purposeful for fleet and, unlike the rest of your army, they're not stupid in close combat. In a nurgle list, you can take tough power armored guys, but they're fast, and can hit witheringly hard in close combat, especially against hordes. For khorne, you can take berzerkers, but with more durability, and for slaanesh, you can have a unit that can kill harder targets that the sonic bolters just sort of bounce off of.

You can use possessed to double down, I suppose, but I think the real gift to them is if you're looking at cult troops and say "These berzerkers are good, but I wish they could draw on some of the benefits of Tzeentch" or "I like the plague marines, but I wish I had something that could really lay down the damage in close combat, like berzerkers." They're kind of a way to keep a strong, fluffy theme while being able to counteract the problems created by having a strong, fluffy theme.

As such, I'd lump them in with units like obliterators and terminators. They're great for taking lists that are very strong, but a bit too narrowly focused, and teasing out a bit of versatility and reducing the effects of hard counters that an insufficiently diverse list brings. Basically adding dirt to brittle iron to make strong, but more pliable steel. And without ruining the theme of the list in the process.

IMO
Terms and Oblits are absolutely not in the league of Possessed, Possessed are a points waste, I'd rank them with pyrovores as far as effectiveness.

I can see what you are saying but Oblits are a decent to good unit and Terms are good unit overall, I literally cannot think of a reason to use possessed especially with so many other options.

And a 5++ isn't that useful, they are jack of all trades at random and a master of nothing

You're also missing the huge fact that they have NO shooting attacks, unless I've missed something for years. Even zerkers have pistols.

2x210 wrote: I'd rank them with pyrovores as far as effectiveness.

Why?

2x210 wrote: And a 5++ isn't that useful, they are jack of all trades at random and a master of nothing

It makes them 50% more durable against weapons that kill marines dead. I assume that you have the same attitude when it comes to squads like plague marines and noise marines FNP? That's the same 5+ "save".

Also, why does adding more durability make them "master of nothing". 10 models being able to kill 17.5 MEq on the charge hardly sounds like a lack of mastery to me. They can also reasonably reliably throw 3 wounds off a dreadknight in a single turn if they roll the shred ability, and have an invul save to protect them to boot.

It seems like "good at lots of stuff" shouldn't be confused with "not good at anything" just because a unit does similar damage to several target types.

Munga wrote:You're also missing the huge fact that they have NO shooting attacks, unless I've missed something for years. Even zerkers have pistols.

Yeah, they're not a threat in the shooting phase. That said, 1ksons aren't a serious threat in the assault phase, and berzerkers, even with pistols, aren't a serious threat in the shooting phase either. You don't have to be good at both shooting and assault in order to be worth taking.

Or else no one would take a MoN DP with a black mace. If it's good in close combat, it doesn't really need a gun.

I love my possessed and am about to expand upon their squad for the soul reason that they draw fire like crazy. I have no idea if it's the models or what, but a squad of 5 rarely ever makes it to their target I'm going to bulk them up to 10 and see how they do. The models are a joy to work with (throw away the instructions!), and I bought the chaos mutations sprue to turn some CSM into possessed that look more... unique? That said, my squad of 5 did some serious damage the few times they managed to make it to the enemy, definitely on level with my zerkers damage output. Having a couple of plasma pistols in a zerker squad definitely softens then enemy up, though. At least possessed are better in this edition than they were in the last. They ARE viable, they just are very situational. And slam full of flavor.

How are possessed more situational than khorne berzerkers (or BP+CCW MoK CSM)? I don't see how a few bolt pistols and the occasional plasma pistol shot open up all that many more situations.

Possessed do well in threat saturation lists so they can get at nice soft targets or lock up somehing deadly and shooty while more obvious threats (like say a squad of plasma plagues about to dump a ton of AP2 hurt after jumping out a rhino) soak up hits that would otherwise cream them.

Tzeentch Possessed are decent combo'd with the grimoire of true names for 2++ fearless fleet beat sticks that can wipe out fleeing squads. Possessed are better at getting beaten up and living through it than actually killing anything though.

 Ailaros wrote:
Then they have -1WS and they also have -1A, because they lack the mark of khorne.

MoK doesn't give you an additional attack anymore. It just gives you Rage and Counter-attack.

No GRENADES. Good players put the units you want to assault in terrain. :(

Phil Kelly has a bad habit of giving units that NEED grenades.. No grenades.

A better comparison, as Possessed are non-scoring and comparably costed, would be Terminators. Making that comparison, you start to realize how truly terrible they are.

Possessed aren't entirely worthless, they're just an expensive and not-that-durable CC unit in an edition where expensive, not-that-durable CC units are very niche. You're comparing them to Berserkers. That's fine, except that Berserkers are also relatively niche. The lack of grenades hurts as well.

Yeah, MoT + Grimoire is nice, but then the question becomes -- why aren't you using that on Screamers (w/ Forewarning) or a Tzeentch DP or Fateweaver or a LoC? Those offer good CC power (except for Fatey) and mobility on top of that, much more than just fleet.

If you have a situation where Khorne Berserkers work for you, and you don't need your berserkers to actually hold objectives, then Possessed can work in that situation. The problem is that those kinds of situations don't seem very common to me.

If you want to go for the 2++ Grimoire, why not just take Warp Talons, which are equally crap but have better mobility, guaranteed Ap3 in CC and overall better special rules. I'm still not convinced by Possessed at all: No grenades, 2x the cost of a Chaos Marine and yet dies just as easily. You can say all you like that they're Berzekers with an Invulnerable save and yes, compared to Berzekers that's pretty good but Berzekers are also pretty crap. Possessed die just as easily as regular CSM, unless they just happen to use Plasma, Battle Cannons etc. Comparing them to Terminators or Obliterators requires a lot more justification.

People need to start using better adjectives than "crap" when discussing units in 40k. If a unit costs too much, they're "expensive" or "inefficient" but not crap when it comes to their tabletop performance.

The worst thing you can say about Possessed, on the table, is that they're slow and desperately need a delivery system. Boo hoo...they share that issue with every other infantry assault unit. At least possessed have FLEET.

A crap unit would have no value on the table. Possessed have a pretty good chance at wrecking and/or tarpitting most units it comes into contact with. If they were 20pts base instead of 26, I feel the conversation surrounding possessed would be about how to get them into assault rather than whether to shoehorn them into our lists. That doesn't sound like a crap unit to me...

 Voidwraith wrote:
People need to start using better adjectives than "crap" when discussing units in 40k. If a unit costs too much, they're "expensive" or "inefficient" but not crap when it comes to their tabletop performance.

The worst thing you can say about Possessed, on the table, is that they're slow and desperately need a delivery system. Boo hoo...they share that issue with every other infantry assault unit. At least possessed have FLEET.

A crap unit would have no value on the table. Possessed have a pretty good chance at wrecking and/or tarpitting most units it comes into contact with. If they were 20pts base instead of 26, I feel the conversation surrounding possessed would be about how to get them into assault rather than whether to shoehorn them into our lists. That doesn't sound like a crap unit to me...

Who made you the be all end all of definitions? A 'crap' unit doesn't have to have no value on the table, but what value it does have is very little when compared to other units. 'Crap' is a subjective term, you can't just make up a definition then call us out on not using it to YOUR definition.

I Just find possessed over expensive and pay a lot for that invul save, which most of the time they don't use. Its the same reason Thousand sons are though of as ''expensive'' or ''inefficient'' because against stuff that doesn't ignore there armour they are as durable as a marine, but twice as expensive ( Also how AP 3 bolters are over hyped and really not that good + there sorcerer is expensive and rubbish, but that's another thread ). Possessed have some uses in fun games, they pull there weight against green horde I'd imagine or other CC troops. But in a shooting edition, most CC units are, well, Crap.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
People need to start using better adjectives than "crap" when discussing units in 40k. If a unit costs too much, they're "expensive" or "inefficient" but not crap when it comes to their tabletop performance.

The worst thing you can say about Possessed, on the table, is that they're slow and desperately need a delivery system. Boo hoo...they share that issue with every other infantry assault unit. At least possessed have FLEET.

A crap unit would have no value on the table. Possessed have a pretty good chance at wrecking and/or tarpitting most units it comes into contact with. If they were 20pts base instead of 26, I feel the conversation surrounding possessed would be about how to get them into assault rather than whether to shoehorn them into our lists. That doesn't sound like a crap unit to me...

Who made you the be all end all of definitions? A 'crap' unit doesn't have to have no value on the table, but what value it does have is very little when compared to other units. 'Crap' is a subjective term, you can't just make up a definition then call us out on not using it to YOUR definition.

I Just find possessed over expensive and pay a lot for that invul save, which most of the time they don't use. Its the same reason Thousand sons are though of as ''expensive'' or ''inefficient'' because against stuff that doesn't ignore there armour they are as durable as a marine, but twice as expensive ( Also how AP 3 bolters are over hyped and really not that good + there sorcerer is expensive and rubbish, but that's another thread ). Possessed have some uses in fun games, they pull there weight against green horde I'd imagine or other CC troops. But in a shooting edition, most CC units are, well, Crap.

Thank you.

 Voidwraith wrote:
People need to start using better adjectives than "crap" when discussing units in 40k. If a unit costs too much, they're "expensive" or "inefficient" but not crap when it comes to their tabletop performance.

The worst thing you can say about Possessed, on the table, is that they're slow and desperately need a delivery system. Boo hoo...they share that issue with every other infantry assault unit. At least possessed have FLEET.

A crap unit would have no value on the table. Possessed have a pretty good chance at wrecking and/or tarpitting most units it comes into contact with. If they were 20pts base instead of 26, I feel the conversation surrounding possessed would be about how to get them into assault rather than whether to shoehorn them into our lists. That doesn't sound like a crap unit to me...

Because the entire game of 40k is played with and points limit and the definition of how well they perform has to be evaluated with their cost to performance in mind, otherwise said performance evaluation is completely useless. Sure 20 Posessed with roflstomp a squad of Tactical Marines, so YES THEY'RE SO GOOD I TAKE THEM TYME!!!. But they also cost 4X as much, so they're not exactly an excellent choice. Trying to take points cost out of the discussion when talking about fitting stuff into a list is 100% pointless and a massive waste of anybodies time.

Badablack wrote:Possessed are better at getting beaten up and living through it than actually killing anything though.

How so? As managed, they can beat up an awful lot, and as others are mentioning, they have a 5++, but aren't exactly invincible. It seems to me the opposite where they can dish more punishment than they can take.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:MoK doesn't give you an additional attack anymore. It just gives you Rage and Counter-attack.

Close combats with these guys are going to be decided in one turn, likely, and on that turn, rage and counterattack both give you +1A

Valkyrie wrote:2x the cost of a Chaos Marine and yet dies just as easily... unless they just happen to use Plasma, Battle Cannons etc.

You're going to ignore something that keeps them alive against dedicated anti-MEq weapons? Never played against helldrakes? Colossuses? Close combat with power weapons?

The game is bulging with AP1-3 weapons. It doesn't seem like a good idea to just ignore something that stops them.

Also yes, they are twice as expensive without being twice as durable, but so what? They do much more than twice as much damage as a regular CSM as well. Looking at just one factor (durability against Ap4-6 weapons) misses the point of possessed.

hippesthippo wrote:No GRENADES. Good players put the units you want to assault in terrain.

Yeah, this is a much more serious critique.

I guess the one thing I could say is that they don't really NEED krak grenades, especially with an IoW, and that for frag grenades, well... Name one unit that's going to be hiding in cover that a squad of possessed can't instantly liquefy. If its good enough to be able to withstand possessed, grenades or no, then it's probably not going to be hiding in cover. If they're hiding in cover, they're probably getting wiped out, grenades or no.

Valkyrie wrote:Comparing them to Terminators or Obliterators requires a lot more justification.

I said that they're comparable in terms of what they offer to a list - flexibility to monoculture lists. I think I've already justified that point of view with the whole "combining two different kinds of elites choices" thing.

Voidwraith wrote:If they were 20pts base instead of 26, I feel the conversation surrounding possessed would be about how to get them into assault rather than whether to shoehorn them into our lists.

Why would that be a fair base cost?

Take a regular 13 point space marine, then add the IoW abilities (so 2 points apiece), and fearless (another 2), and a 5++ (which equals two MoTs, so 4 points), and already you're looking at 24 points, and possessed are actually a little better still (FC working not on charge, fleet being better than a straight reroll, getting the ++ without taking a mark, fear, etc.), which means really they should be 25 or 26 points. I don't think 3 or 4 points is too much to pay for possibly getting shred or Ap3 or attacking first.

ALEXisAWESOME wrote:But in a shooting edition, most CC units are, well, Crap.

Valkyrie wrote: compared to Berzekers that's pretty good but Berzekers are also pretty crap.

Thariinye wrote:You're comparing them to Berserkers. That's fine, except that Berserkers are also relatively niche.

The thing is, though, the CSM codex itself is basically close combat: the codex. It's not just because it has berzerkers or possessed, it's because CSM are the same price as regular SM with +1A (or cheaper, and still +1A) with less good shooting options. They have tanks that do damage in "close combat" through tank shocks and vector strikes. Then you have the flail dreads and the maulerfiends and defilers. And the raptors, and warp talons, and mutilators, and all the HQ choices, and all the chaos artifacts worth taking. Even "shooty" units are still assault units, like how obliterators are still W2 terminators with a power fist and helldrakes, as mentioned, vector strike, and noise marines nearly get to khorne berzerkers in close combat power.

If you think that getting units into close combat, especially power armored ones or other "weak" units, then you must think that the entire CSM codex is, itself, a niche codex. Let's be honest, if the only way you can take a unit (and by extension, an army) seriously is by how much shooting it does, then you just shouldn't play CSM. They're not going to be outshooting anyone.

Valkyrie wrote:why not just take Warp Talons, which are equally crap but have better mobility, guaranteed Ap3 in CC and overall better special rules.

That's actually more interesting.

So, warp talons gain Ap3 AND shred, rather than Ap3 OR shred, and they're faster by quite a bit, and can deepstrike with warpflame (not that you're ever, ever going to). On the other side, the possessed gain fearless, +1S, fleet, and the ability to take FC or FNP. And they're four points cheaper.

I don't know... there's an awful lot that possessed get here. I mean, the fact that the talons always get shred is somewhat offset by the +1 (and, if you choose, possibly +2) Strength, and being able to reroll charge range seems like a pretty big deal. I guess that's offset by the fact that you're just straight faster though, but if you're charging into terrain...

It seems to be a trade-off between speed and durability or harder hittingness. I guess that's the difference between elite and fast attack choices right there.

Griever wrote:Trying to take points cost out of the discussion when talking about fitting stuff into a list is 100% pointless and a massive waste of anybodies time.

Which is why I didn't do that in my calculations. Being more expensive isn't a bad thing if you get what you pay for which, as shown in the OP, you do.

Griever wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
People need to start using better adjectives than "crap" when discussing units in 40k. If a unit costs too much, they're "expensive" or "inefficient" but not crap when it comes to their tabletop performance.

The worst thing you can say about Possessed, on the table, is that they're slow and desperately need a delivery system. Boo hoo...they share that issue with every other infantry assault unit. At least possessed have FLEET.

A crap unit would have no value on the table. Possessed have a pretty good chance at wrecking and/or tarpitting most units it comes into contact with. If they were 20pts base instead of 26, I feel the conversation surrounding possessed would be about how to get them into assault rather than whether to shoehorn them into our lists. That doesn't sound like a crap unit to me...

Because the entire game of 40k is played with and points limit and the definition of how well they perform has to be evaluated with their cost to performance in mind, otherwise said performance evaluation is completely useless. Sure 20 Posessed with roflstomp a squad of Tactical Marines, so YES THEY'RE SO GOOD I TAKE THEM TYME!!!. But they also cost 4X as much, so they're not exactly an excellent choice. Trying to take points cost out of the discussion when talking about fitting stuff into a list is 100% pointless and a massive waste of anybodies time.

Exactly. Thanks for clarifying.

Ailaros wrote:

Voidwraith wrote:If they were 20pts base instead of 26, I feel the conversation surrounding possessed would be about how to get them into assault rather than whether to shoehorn them into our lists.

Why would that be a fair base cost?

Take a regular 13 point space marine, then add the IoW abilities (so 2 points apiece), and fearless (another 2), and a 5++ (which equals two MoTs, so 4 points), and already you're looking at 24 points, and possessed are actually a little better still (FC working not on charge, fleet being better than a straight reroll, getting the ++ without taking a mark, fear, etc.), which means really they should be 25 or 26 points. I don't think 3 or 4 points is too much to pay for possibly getting shred or Ap3 or attacking first.

I'm with you. Also, I have no idea how and why any given unit is given it's points cost. It's up to us to decide what's efficient when making lists, and some units just fall to the wayside based on the numbers crunch. I was trying to make the point that the unit itself doesn't perform badly...it's just that people do not want to pay the cost for it.

I feel that if CSM had an actual assault transport, these arguments wouldn't be as strong anymore.

The problem is, they don't, thus all these neat units have to be compared to more useful ones, and those that can fit into the (weakest) land raider.

Once again, though, you're throwing out all of CSM, not throwing out possessed.

If you're not happy with the (strongest) land raider, and don't think that CSM assault units can really work all that well without them, then you're throwing away most of the codex. It's not a problem with possessed, it's a problem with CSM, and if you don't see how CSM can work, then of course you're not going to see how possessed do.

 Ailaros wrote:
Once again, though, you're throwing out all of CSM, not throwing out possessed.

If you're not happy with the (strongest) land raider, and don't think that CSM assault units can really work all that well without them, then you're throwing away most of the codex. It's not a problem with possessed, it's a problem with CSM, and if you don't see how CSM can work, then of course you're not going to see how possessed do.

Strongest? An ineffective gunboat when you need an actual transport for letting units get closer helps none, most of what assault units CSM has needs something to help them get close, they aren't worth running across the field, but at the same time they'll be shot down if they try rhino rushing them and be stalled for several turns.

CSM assault units are generally used for simple counter-assault now, if used at all. Plague marines can easily do well in CC, and noise marines allow none to come close.

The problem is that the dex feels like it still wants to be playing in 4th edition, but it's two editions late when it comes to assaults.

If you're not happy with the (strongest) land raider

There is no possible way you can actually believe this....

 Ailaros wrote:
Once again, though, you're throwing out all of CSM, not throwing out possessed.

If you're not happy with the (strongest) land raider, and don't think that CSM assault units can really work all that well without them, then you're throwing away most of the codex. It's not a problem with possessed, it's a problem with CSM, and if you don't see how CSM can work, then of course you're not going to see how possessed do.

Uhhhhhhhh, what?

Every other land raider variant is paying hundreds of points for the kind of firepower that you get from regular squads of troops. And they only do it at the same range that regular squads of troops to it in. Land raider crusaders or redeemers aren't much more than some regular space marines glued together and then way overpriced.

The regular land raider can attack any target at any range. It's expensive, but it's balanced, versatile, and flexible. They can shoot down a flier with two twin-linked lascannons on one turn, and then deliver abaddon into close combat on the next. The standard land raider is a serious weapon. Every other one is either forgeworld nonsense or nothing more than a glorified rhino.

Not that any of this has to do with possessed, so I'll go ahead and ignore future incredulity on this topic.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:The problem is that the dex feels like it still wants to be playing in 4th edition, but it's two editions late when it comes to assaults.

Or it's the only serious attempt by GW to balance out two editions of pointless overbuffing of shooting armies.

Once again, if you think that CSM is ten years out of date, then you're not going to get possessed, regardless of their qualities. You've got to be able to see how close combat, however contortedly and difficulty, can work. Otherwise you might as well throw the whole codex out.

Chaos space marines need the rules for apocalypse defiler formations back. You could stick an entire squad of berserkers on the back of one and ride a fleet walker across the field, possibly losing one or two along the way.
Chaos needs that casual disregard for safety back, this modern focus on 'not dying in droves' and dreadnoughts that dont spin around and murder your own dudes? It's just a sad, shameful state of affairs.
Honestly, possessed aren't possessed enough in their current state. Make them cost 10 points each, give them power weapons and rage and furious charge and ten more special rules. And then give them a 50/50 chance to turn around and charge into your troop squad huddled around an objective back in the deployment zone. What are chaos marines doing squatting around a flag anyway? Are they tired? Is someone a little tuckered out from 10,000 years of war?
Chaos marines should ignore objectives. There should be a little grey box in the rulebook that states chaos marines don't need your silly objective, their objective is to murder everyone and then have a meaningful prayer to whatever chaos god their denomination believes in. Slaanesh marines are Methodists.

Or it's the only serious attempt by GW to balance out two editions of pointless overbuffing of shooting armies.

Once again, if you think that CSM is ten years out of date, then you're not going to get possessed, regardless of their qualities. You've got to be able to see how close combat, however contortedly and difficulty, can work. Otherwise you might as well throw the whole codex out.

Not sure how making assaults worthless is helping overbuffing shooting, but okay...

I don't think, I know. This is not some Avant garde piece to understand, it's simple enough to anyone whose played chaos for an actual period of time.

Following his math they really don't seem like crap (a guy at my FLGS brought this up to me a while back too). I love the idea of pairing them with a 4++ and the grimoire, a fleet 2++ squad seems well worth it to me, and they do very well as a harassing unit against dug in threats you dont want to waste baleflamer on. I've been looking for a good reason to give them a try in 6th.

Ailaros wrote:

ALEXisAWESOME wrote:But in a shooting edition, most CC units are, well, Crap.

Valkyrie wrote: compared to Berzekers that's pretty good but Berzekers are also pretty crap.

Thariinye wrote:You're comparing them to Berserkers. That's fine, except that Berserkers are also relatively niche.

The thing is, though, the CSM codex itself is basically close combat: the codex. It's not just because it has berzerkers or possessed, it's because CSM are the same price as regular SM with +1A (or cheaper, and still +1A) with less good shooting options. They have tanks that do damage in "close combat" through tank shocks and vector strikes. Then you have the flail dreads and the maulerfiends and defilers. And the raptors, and warp talons, and mutilators, and all the HQ choices, and all the chaos artifacts worth taking. Even "shooty" units are still assault units, like how obliterators are still W2 terminators with a power fist and helldrakes, as mentioned, vector strike, and noise marines nearly get to khorne berzerkers in close combat power.

If you think that getting units into close combat, especially power armored ones or other "weak" units, then you must think that the entire CSM codex is, itself, a niche codex. Let's be honest, if the only way you can take a unit (and by extension, an army) seriously is by how much shooting it does, then you just shouldn't play CSM. They're not going to be outshooting anyone.

Valkyrie wrote:why not just take Warp Talons, which are equally crap but have better mobility, guaranteed Ap3 in CC and overall better special rules.

That's actually more interesting.

So, warp talons gain Ap3 AND shred, rather than Ap3 OR shred, and they're faster by quite a bit, and can deepstrike with warpflame (not that you're ever, ever going to). On the other side, the possessed gain fearless, +1S, fleet, and the ability to take FC or FNP. And they're four points cheaper.

I don't know... there's an awful lot that possessed get here. I mean, the fact that the talons always get shred is somewhat offset by the +1 (and, if you choose, possibly +2) Strength, and being able to reroll charge range seems like a pretty big deal. I guess that's offset by the fact that you're just straight faster though, but if you're charging into terrain...

It seems to be a trade-off between speed and durability or harder hittingness. I guess that's the difference between elite and fast attack choices right there.

Alright, so lets talk about CSM in CC. You're right in saying that CSM can't outshoot the shooty codices. CSM is roughly on the same power as other Power Armor Codices when it comes to shootiness (GK are better, but they're a special snowflake) CSM does have more CC options than a lot of other armies. The problem is in the delivery of those CC units. You either need expensive Land Raiders, which is a potentially viable option but reduces your regular striking power, or some other form of mobility -- cause you're not getting into CC this edition if you don't have mobility. Durability also is a big thing -- T4 3+ save dudes die quite easily to small arms fire these days, so those defenses against small arms just wont cut it.

This is why people take Spawn, Bikers, Juggerlords and Maulerfiends, as well as Plague Marines (sort of), and Obliterators (sort of). Spawn and Maulerfiends mostly ignore difficult terrain, and move 12", so they're going to get a 2nd turn assault. Spawn are T5 (T6 if you're running with a Nurgle Biker Lord, not a Juggerlord) and have lots of wounds for cheap, so they are fast and can take the hits going in. Maulerfiends are really damn fast. Plague Marines and Obliterators are taken because they're good shooty units that also aren't wet noodles in combat, by sheer virtue of being T5 and either having a reasonable number of 4+ poison attacks or TDA + Powerfists and 2W. The actual amount of CC output is not actually that important -- most other factions will fall to CSM in combat, because they're not optimizing for CC. In fact, you don't want to be too overwhelming in CC, as then you'll just sweep the unit and get shot to pieces the next turn, instead of staying in combat to their turn, winning then, and then being able to get into another combat. The units that are taken from CSM are those that can either get into a guaranteed Turn 2 Assault, or have good shooting power and also can contribute in late-game CC.

The problem with Possessed is not that they're bad in CC, they're quite okay. It's that it's hard to get them into CC. Fleet just isn't going to cut it, I'm sorry. Marking them with MoN does let them survive a bit longer, but then makes them cost as much as CSM Terminators do. Really, Marines with MoK, Icon, and BP/CCW would probably do the same job as Possessed, but would cost less points. Either way, you still need to address the problem of getting expensive MEQs into combat without a good assault vehicle. What I wouldn't give for Trukks in CSM.

Warp Talons with MoT and the 2++ from the Grimoire are an interesting thing -- I'd like to see someone make it work, if only to say that they've succeeding in making Warp Talons not suck. Yes, I'd prefer using Tzeentch Warp Talons over Tzeentch Possessed -- the guaranteed 12" move and Shred is better to me than what possessed offer in CC.

Ailaros wrote:Once again, though, you're throwing out all of CSM, not throwing out possessed.

If you're not happy with the (strongest) land raider, and don't think that CSM assault units can really work all that well without them, then you're throwing away most of the codex. It's not a problem with possessed, it's a problem with CSM, and if you don't see how CSM can work, then of course you're not going to see how possessed do.

I'm sorry, but the Land Raider Phobos is a schizophrenic (apologies for using that term) overcosted vehicle. Sure it's got a points discount over a Loyalist LR, but you lose PotMS, which is certainly worth 20pts. A LR Phobos wants to be stock-still in the back-field taking potshots with Lascannons and staying invincible to whatever long-range fire the enemy throws at it. However, it's way too expensive for that, you could just get a Pred and do much the same thing. You're also wasting much of its value if you're using it as a transport, because if you're rocketing up 12" you're getting, what, 2 TL BS1 Lascannons and a BS1 TL HB? It's a waste of its firepower capabilities. The reason the Land Raider Crusader is preferred when available is three-fold. One, its firepower actually matches what it's supposed to be doing. Its role is clear: get in close and let loose. Second, it doesn't fully waste its firepower if it does move that 12" -- PotMS means that the MM you've got up top still gets to fire at full BS, so you've still got reasonable firepower even with your 12" move. Lastly, it gives your guys Frag Grenades, which a bunch of CSM units could really really use!

The CSM Land Raider is a viable option for CSM, mostly because it's our only Assault Transport. By no means is it the strongest LR.

tl;dr, CSM's assault problems aren't with how they actually function in assault, it's getting into assault without dying that's the key. If you can figure out a way to get Berserkers or Possessed into combat by Turn 2 against an army that is trying to avoid it without using overcosted Land Raiders, then you've solved a very big problem that CSM has.

Thariinye wrote:You're right in saying that CSM can't outshoot the shooty codices

Quick, name one codex that CSM can outshoot.

...

... demons?

That's all I've got.

Thariinye wrote:The problem is in the delivery of those CC units... cause you're not getting into CC this edition if you don't have mobility. Durability also is a big thing.

I take it you've never played a foot horde before.

Mobility is countered by field position. If I push you back into the corner, I'm getting into close combat eventually, and if you have enough mobility to evade that (somehow), then I can just sit on objectives, and the mobile player can just lose the game.

Durability is handled differently in the world of foot units as well. It's not that you don't take casualties. It's not that you don't take a lot of casualties. It's that, even after casualties, you still have enough power to kill stuff.

If you take a squad of khorne berzerkers and march them across the board, and they lose half their numbers, that's okay, because 10 khrone berzerkers are still going to be able to beat up practically anything in the game once they arrive.

The same is true for possessed, except moreso, because they have a 5++ which gives them greater durability, and they have fleet which likely gets them into close combat a turn earlier.

Regarding the Warp Talons, don't forget they get to re-roll their charge distance if they don't use their jump packs in the movement phase (i.e. they moved the same distance as the possessed are capable of). This isn't quite as good as fleet but it's pretty close. In addition when they do this they get Hammer of Wrath as well.