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 Ailaros wrote:

Thariinye wrote:You're right in saying that CSM can't outshoot the shooty codices

Quick, name one codex that CSM can outshoot.

...

... demons?

That's all I've got.

Thariinye wrote:The problem is in the delivery of those CC units... cause you're not getting into CC this edition if you don't have mobility. Durability also is a big thing.

I take it you've never played a foot horde before.

Mobility is countered by field position. If I push you back into the corner, I'm getting into close combat eventually, and if you have enough mobility to evade that (somehow), then I can just sit on objectives, and the mobile player can just lose the game.

Durability is handled differently in the world of foot units as well. It's not that you don't take casualties. It's not that you don't take a lot of casualties. It's that, even after casualties, you still have enough power to kill stuff.

If you take a squad of khorne berzerkers and march them across the board, and they lose half their numbers, that's okay, because 10 khrone berzerkers are still going to be able to beat up practically anything in the game once they arrive.

The same is true for possessed, except moreso, because they have a 5++ which gives them greater durability, and they have fleet which likely gets them into close combat a turn earlier.

lol, you're probably right about the outshooting...maybe Orks? Black Templars? Bad vanilla SM lists? CSM shooting is, well, different than other shooting, in that the most effective forms of it are Obliterators and Heldrakes, neither of which are good in a gun-line.

I'd say that, if you're starting in your deployment zone and trying to get 20 Berserkers across the table, you're going to often-times wind up with a lot less than 10 getting to the enemy. I've played MEQ lists that are reasonably horde-y, and in my experience, you don't get across the field against Tau. Why Tau? Because if you want to succeed in getting into CC this edition, your main issue is Tau. Eldar as well, but it's a different kind of problem. Also, 5++ is no good against small arms fire, which is what you're going to face. The problem is the expense for T4 3+.

Actually, you know, there is a way to get at least something further up the table, that I've totally forgotten. Huron. Using Huron to get 20-60 Berserkers (or even Possessed) starting in mid-field (hopefully you've got a juggerlord to make them troops as well) isn't that terrible an idea. The randomness is annoying, but still workable.