Local Tournament Observations

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**Kangodo**

Steel-W0LF wrote:
Locrian wrote:
Steel-W0LF wrote:
I just attended a tourney and came in 5th.
Had a great time. Tau Eldar 1st and second. I play Nids and the Eldar are just brutal on nids now.
I agree with thier opinion of Forgeworld. Thier models are given good stats to get people to buy them. This hoby is expensive enough already, no need to give the more affluent players an even bigger advantage... At least not in a competative setting.
Pick up games and even some leagues, sure.

Sounds to me like you've never even read any of the stats/costs/info on forge world units, and are just talking out your rear.

Whatever blows your skirt up.......

He is right, tho.
Maybe we should send this "FW is OP"-nonsense to MythBusters :')

**Makumba**

LeadLegion wrote:
Not at all. GW has recently ruled that Forge World models and army lists are now tournament legal in 6th edition games. You can now bring Forgeworld to official GW run tournaments. Non GW tournaments are perfectly entitled to make up their own minds about Forge World though.

Just be clear on this now: the Forge World models with the 40K stamp as now tournament legal. The Apocalypse stamped ones are only legal in Apocalypse tournaments.

Yes, that means Land Raider Spartans and even Storm Eagles are a common site in MEQ tournament lists now. And for good reason.

But arent GW GT sponsored tournaments limited to UK and US?
All I know about FW is that the talk about most of it being not broken is strawman argument. People wouldn't buy the "bad" FW stuff unless the community that makes the tournament is already fully supporting FW anyway . At all other times you get to play stuff like 4-5 saber platforms on a landing pad or a bastion . And it is pay win , because if a FW tournament suddenly pops up only the realy rich people will have the money to buy those models and get someone to paint them on time.

**Kangodo**

Just because a model isn't bad, doesn't mean it's overpowered.
The models from my army are mostly good alternatives: same power, different role or model

**AlmightyWalrus**

Makumba wrote:
And it is pay win , because if a FW tournament suddenly pops up only the realy rich people will have the money to buy those models and get someone to paint them on time.

As opposed to Riptides, Wraithknights and loads of Necron fliers?

**Makumba**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Makumba wrote:
And it is pay win , because if a FW tournament suddenly pops up only the realy rich people will have the money to buy those models and get someone to paint them on time.

As opposed to Riptides, Wraithknights and loads of Necron fliers?

yes , because everyone can and probably will own those sooner or later . If you need to buy saber weapon platforms for 2-3 tournaments per year , then only people with ton of cash will do that. This lowers the number of people going to those tournaments who aren't total noobs and makes the noobs think that tournaments are unfun , if they are unlucky to have FW in their area. Now I understand that this can look different in UK or US , but everywhere else FW doesn't fix anything , it only makes those people who are already winining the arms race , win more and new people stop playing faster.

Wrightknights , why did you mention those ? I could understand valks , but not WKs.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Makumba wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Makumba wrote:
And it is pay win , because if a FW tournament suddenly pops up only the realy rich people will have the money to buy those models and get someone to paint them on time.

As opposed to Riptides, Wraithknights and loads of Necron fliers?

yes , because everyone can and probably will own those sooner or later . If you need to buy saber weapon platforms for 2-3 tournaments per year , then only people with ton of cash will do that. This lowers the number of people going to those tournaments who aren't total noobs and makes the noobs think that tournaments are unfun , if they are unlucky to have FW in their area. Now I understand that this can look different in UK or US , but everywhere else FW doesn't fix anything , it only makes those people who are already winining the arms race , win more and new people stop playing faster.

Wrightknights , why did you mention those ? I could understand valks , but not WKs.

So the solution to people buying these supposedly OP units for a few events is to ban them entirely, instead of allowing them so that it's not such a niche purchase? What?

**kronk**

Commissar Benny wrote:
Hey Guys,

Just got back from a tournament yesterday as a observer/spectator & thought I would share my observations. I had a great time, met some fun people but there were some things that caught me off guard that I wanted to share. I would like to add this is one of my first tournaments I have ever attended. There was roughly 20-30 people in attendance.

1) Forgeworld products not permitted whatsoever. This wasn't just the perception of the tournament organizer, but the players as well. To sum up the general attitude towards Forgeworld products it was "Forgeworld units stats are superior to GW so they can sell units." I was really disappointed by this. I had plans to purchase a few Forgeworld units & it seems every place I have visited has the same attitude.

2) 80% of the armies hadn't been touched with paint.

3) Noticed 2 Dark Angels players playing against one another. When I brought up Cypher the fallen angel, & asked them what they thought about possibility of him possessing the Lionsword, the greatsword of the Dark Angel primarch neither of them seemed interested. I don't think they knew what I was talking about. Just surprised me that 2 Dark Angels players had no knowledge of something within their own codex or even seemed to care.

4) All armies were represented except imperial guard, dark eldar, tyranids. About 1/3 of the people present were Tau.

5) With the exception of 1 Ork player, no fluffy lists were used. Seemed that on almost every table armies were min/maxed to perfection & or lists they copied off the net. I spent most of the evening watching the Ork player. He didn't do well, but he was having a blast regardless.

6) About half the games in which Tau were fielded, opponents that were not Tau just conceded. Looked like both sides of the table weren't really having fun.

7) Most of the community was older, which was refreshing.

8) Apparently most of the players present have known each other for a long time. They travel all over & attend just about every 40k event in the area. While I think that is awesome, it also means their toxic mindset towards FW products exists everywhere in immediate area.

9) While I did meet some really nice people I felt many looked at me as a outsider. If I asked a question about someones army, I was asked "Do you even play 40k?" I was taken back a bit. I do play 40k, but I don't know the rules of every codex. I went out of my way to compliment peoples armies as in many cases even the unpainted ones had awesome basing. While some were receptive I caught a few glares.

Is this what its like in your local area?

Click me! I'm a 41 page thread on Forge World at Tournaments with the same tired and regurgitated arguments!

There, now to the actual topic in question.

@OP: It sucks that you're local tournament guy allows unpainted armies but not FW, but those are the breaks sometime. You might see if you can run your own events there or at another store.

3) Not everyone is interested in the fluff. You just can't fix that. Some people just want to play, and that's fine. In my group of 6, 4 people know a reasonable amount about the fluff, 3 read a lot of BL books, and 2 just simply don't care. They're still good guys to play with, though.

4) That would be a boring event to have 1/3rd or more playing one army, but look at the bright side. 2 years ago, nearly everyone played some sort of Space Marine or Grey Knight army. I'd call it progress.

5) You can't really expect people to bring fluffy lists to a tournament with prize support. Can't help you there. Again, see if you can run an event sometime with what you would consider "Fluffy armies only" or something if you really want to play that way.

6) That REALLY sucks. I don't know what to say about that.

7) Good.

8) Having a good old boys club is fine so long as you're welcoming of new people. That sounds clickish and dickish at the same time.

9) Don't worry about the "Do you even play 40k" guys. Next time, fire back. "Sorry, but I spend my free time with your mom, not the codecies." or something. Your mama jokes will always win you points. If not, then he's a real tool bag.

**insaniak**

Makumba wrote:
yes , because everyone can and probably will own those sooner or later . If you need to buy saber weapon platforms for 2-3 tournaments per year , then only people with ton of cash will do that. This lowers the number of people going to those tournaments who aren't total noobs and makes the noobs think that tournaments are unfun , if they are unlucky to have FW in their area. Now I understand that this can look different in UK or US , but everywhere else FW doesn't fix anything , it only makes those people who are already winining the arms race , win more and new people stop playing faster.

I've played in 3 tournies now that allowed Forgeworld units. None of the top players in those events were using anything from Forgeworld, as the general consensus in the tournie circuit here is that the vast majority of FW units are overpriced for what they do.

And while using the most powerful army is certainly a help, it's not a guarantee to winning. We have a local player here who fairly consistently finishes in the top 3 in events he plays in... while deliberately using whichever codex is currently considered the weakest in the game.

Having powerful models doesn't win you tournaments. Being a good player is what does that.

**Makumba**

Having powerful models doesn't win you tournaments. Being a good player is what does that.

Chaos , tau and necron are more offten used in tournament lists then other armies . I don't see reports about tzeench demon armies wining many GT sized tournaments or sob or DA or marines . helldrakes or ally necron or Mace DPs in demon armies are used a lot.

**Davor**

Commissar Benny wrote:

9) While I did meet some really nice people I felt many looked at me as a outsider. If I asked a question about someones army, I was asked "Do you even play 40k?" I was taken back a bit. I do play 40k, but I don't know the rules of every codex. I went out of my way to compliment peoples armies as in many cases even the unpainted ones had awesome basing. While some were receptive I caught a few glares.

This I find so sad. People who play Plastic Toy Soldiers pretend they are jocks or athletes with that kind of attitude.

**insaniak**

Makumba wrote:
Chaos , tau and necron are more offten used in tournament lists then other armies . I don't see reports about tzeench demon armies wining many GT sized tournaments or sob or DA or marines . helldrakes or ally necron or Mace DPs in demon armies are used a lot.

That doesn't invalidate my point. You can take the most powerful list imaginable, you're still likely to be beaten by an inferior list if it's in the hands of a better player.

It's common for the better players to use better lists... but not entirely universal. Some are quite happy using codexes that aren't considered top tier.

**Sigvatr**

The FW ban is extremely common and, in some cases, necessary to have a competitive game. FW often releases terribly balanced stuff and heavily favors IG over all other factions. The only two solutions are either developing a special rules set for FW, banning or restricting certain choices or just banning it alltogether as FW isn't a part of vanilla 40k. Since the latter is far easier to handle, it's standard practice at tournaments.

FW models, however, a greatly appreciated as those really look gorgeous. Shame they let people play with unpainted armies as this heavily promotes FOTM players.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Sigvatr wrote:
FW often releases terribly balanced stuff and heavily favors IG over all other factions..

Citation needed.

**Sigvatr**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
FW often releases terribly balanced stuff and heavily favors IG over all other factions..

Citation needed.

#FWthread

**kb305**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
FW often releases terribly balanced stuff and heavily favors IG over all other factions..

Citation needed.

i havnt looked at all the books but dont they stamp their stuff wtih experimental or something? which is usually another way of saying cheese alert?

however, the people saying the regular game is so broken that adding more broken stuff to it doesnt really matter make a good point.

**Sigvatr**

kb305 wrote:

however, the people saying the regular game is so broken that adding more broken stuff to it doesnt really matter make a good point.

In the contrary. It's completely irrational and a downright, sorry, stupid point most often brought up by WAAC and, highly likely, IG players. Noone doubts that many codices have a few broken picks, like Heldracks, Scythes etc. 1-2 of 'em. The fact that people then seriously come out and say "We already got a few broken units, let's just make the pile bigger and start stacking 'em then!" downright baffles me. If most of these people weren't saying that because they want their very own army to get (more) overpowered, I'd be shocked. Not to mention that even if that argument was even borderline valid, you'd extremely favor IG and, arguably, Necrons while leaving many factions behind, further breaking the game.

So yeah, it's a completely stupid argument and if you see someone making it, just nod him off and smile.

**kb305**

Sigvatr wrote:
kb305 wrote:

however, the people saying the regular game is so broken that adding more broken stuff to it doesnt really matter make a good point.

In the contrary. It's completely irrational and a downright, sorry, stupid point most often brought up by WAAC and, highly likely, IG players. Noone doubts that many codices have a few broken picks, like Heldracks, Scythes etc. 1-2 of 'em. The fact that people then seriously come out and say "We already got a few broken units, let's just make the pile bigger and start stacking 'em then!" downright baffles me. If most of these people weren't saying that because they want their very own army to get (more) overpowered, I'd be shocked. Not to mention that even if that argument was even borderline valid, you'd extremely favor IG and, arguably, Necrons while leaving many factions behind, further breaking the game.

So yeah, it's a completely stupid argument and if you see someone making it, just nod him off and smile.

the option to abuse the rules is already there, then you add in allies and it gets even more stupid. it's at the point where it doesnt matter anymore. if someone is going to be WAAC you cant really stop them either way.

**Peregrine**

kb305 wrote:
i havnt looked at all the books but dont they stamp their stuff wtih experimental or something?

No. The only "experimental" rules are occasional pdfs they post to give you the rules for new model kits before the book they will be published in is available. This is only a tiny minority of the rules (IIRC only two units currently have experimental rules), everything else is considered "final" just like a unit printed in a codex or WD article.

Sigvatr wrote:
The fact that people then seriously come out and say "We already got a few broken units, let's just make the pile bigger and start stacking 'em then!" downright baffles me.

But that's not really the point. The point is the double standard where overpowered codex units are an essential part of the game and nobody will even consider banning them or changing their rules, but it's necessary to have a blanket ban on FW units because a very small number of them are overpowered. If people really care about game balance instead of using it as an excuse to keep FW out of the game they would be passionately arguing for a ban on Helldrakes/Vendettas/etc.

**Tyberos the Red Wake**

Sigvatr wrote:
The FW ban is extremely common and, in some cases, necessary to have a competitive game. FW often releases terribly balanced stuff and heavily favors IG over all other factions. The only two solutions are either developing a special rules set for FW, banning or restricting certain choices or just banning it alltogether as FW isn't a part of vanilla 40k. Since the latter is far easier to handle, it's standard practice at tournaments.

FW models, however, a greatly appreciated as those really look gorgeous. Shame they let people play with unpainted armies as this heavily promotes FOTM players.

It's downright sloppy and lazy though, since even the non-FW GW stuff could use some good bans to create a healthier and more balanced metagame.

**gealgain**

at my old LGS, i ran a tournament mostly to reward the heart of the hobby, 3 prizes were given out- $40 store credit for 1st place, $25 for second, $15 for best painted army, $15 for "best opponent" and a fresh set of dice for the player with the lowest tournament placing

**Talizvar**

gealgain wrote:
at my old LGS, i ran a tournament mostly to reward the heart of the hobby, 3 prizes were given out- $40 store credit for 1st place, $25 for second, $15 for best painted army, $15 for "best opponent" and a fresh set of dice for the player with the lowest tournament placing

I agree with this kind of thing; there are many elements to the hobby so reward the behavior you want.
If you only give a reward to winning the game, you will only see glorified chess pieces out there or the gray/chrome legion.
I would suggest anyone with the "most unbelievable rolls" of the day will get a fresh set of dice and their prior ones get run in a blender, just to be sure...

**undertow**

A Musketeer wrote:
I played a flying circus army that had a lower model count than me (by a lot) and took 3 times as long to just set up. It was the most boring game I have ever played. During his turn, he just rolls on charts and I just sit there and watch him roll and reroll dice. Horribly boring game. I'l not play a flying circus willfully again.

To be fair, that description sounds a lot like many gunline lists. I've played numerous games against gunlines where his turn took twice as long as mine and consisted of almost no movement and tons of dice rolling and me removing models. Incredibly boring to play against. Hell, any game of Warhammer involves watching your opponent roll a bunch of dice during their turn.

**LeadLegion**

At the Chaos of the Warp tournaments we have certain special prizes of this nature.

For example, the person with the cheesiest list is normally awarded an actual pound of cheese.

The unluckiest player might win a plastic horse-shoe, etc.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
A player who's list consists entirely of spam will be awarded a tin of spam and so on.

It's a fairly gentle, tongue-in-cheek mild rebuke that says: "Really well put together list, but try to tone it down a bit next time."

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh: the luckiest ( or "jammiest" player as we say in Scotland) get's a jar of preserved fruit (We call it Jam in the UK. Some of you might know it as "jelly").