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I've had an itching question for some time about the use of armored vehicles that get to use the flame template. I've attempted to use it, and some people think its okay, some people get very...well, angry about it. Tables have been flipped over this so I would appreciate some insight.

Without going into too much detail on the rules (since I know people can get in trouble for that) can I turn the flame template within the vehicle's range to possibly fire around corners? Providing of course that I can see at least one member of a unit clearly.

It seems to satisfy the only 2 requirements that the front of the template must not be closer to the firer than the back and that the back of the template is within the specified range of the vehicle.

I honestly am inexperienced with the flame template, I am still not sure how exactly one goes about choosing a target, the blast templates require one chooses a specific target before firing.

If anyone is still a bit unsure of what I am talking about I would be happy to provide an illustration.

Thanks everyone!
Akad

Only blasts can hit models out of Line of sight, and items with rules that specifically ignore LOS.


So if you manage to put the template over ten dudes, but only two of them are visible to the person firing the weapon, then yes you cause ten wounds, but they can only be allocated to the two models that are visible. They'd have to make all ten saves themselves (barring some look out sirs), but any that are left after they are killed disapear.

Yes you can urn the flame template within the vehicle's range to possibly fire around corners providing that you can see at least one member of a unit clearly.

But remember if you can only see one member of the unit that model is the only model eligible to be removed as a casualty.

Thanks guys, that helps a lot, but what about firing around a piece of cover, I can still see 50% but if I fire around the cover (template does not pass over the cover but rather from the side), do they still get the cover save?

Thanks,
Akad

You never get cover from a template

Akademee wrote:
It seems to satisfy the only 2 requirements that the front of the template must not be closer to the firer than the back and that the back of the template is within the specified range of the vehicle.

Note that this is not a general rule for the flame template, but only for a few specific weapons on vehicles such as the Hellhound and the Land Raider Redeemer.

 Ghaz wrote:

Akademee wrote:
It seems to satisfy the only 2 requirements that the front of the template must not be closer to the firer than the back and that the back of the template is within the specified range of the vehicle.

Note that this is not a general rule for the flame template, but only for a few specific weapons on vehicles such as the Hellhound and the Land Raider Redeemer.

Well, it kind of is. I'd like to see someone get the "front" end of the template closer to the firer than the back when the back has to start in base contact.

 Ghaz wrote:

Akademee wrote:
It seems to satisfy the only 2 requirements that the front of the template must not be closer to the firer than the back and that the back of the template is within the specified range of the vehicle.

Note that this is not a general rule for the flame template, but only for a few specific weapons on vehicles such as the Hellhound and the Land Raider Redeemer.

Redeemer does not have torrent

Chrysis wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Akademee wrote:
It seems to satisfy the only 2 requirements that the front of the template must not be closer to the firer than the back and that the back of the template is within the specified range of the vehicle.

Note that this is not a general rule for the flame template, but only for a few specific weapons on vehicles such as the Hellhound and the Land Raider Redeemer.

Well, it kind of is. I'd like to see someone get the "front" end of the template closer to the firer than the back when the back has to start in base contact.

This is confusing, you guys are talking about torrent rule.

Normal flamers or templates originate from the barrel of the weapon or model that uses them. (yes this does mean the narrow end is closer duh..) Torrent allows you to place the template in such a way that the narrow end is closer to the origin than the broad end and is within 12".

Normal templates negate cover and so does torrent.

You place the template looking from above, so you can hit stuff that's not line of site for determination of how many wounds you afflict, however for purposes of assigning wounds you can only use models in line of sight.

Template weapons also use the wall of death rule in overwatch resulting in a number of automatic hits. (check the brb for how many).

Also in normal fire mode you are not allowed to place the template over your own troops (so flamers should be at the front of the unit), this does NOT apply in overwatch.

Hope that summarizes it. (did I miss anything?)

 davou wrote:
You never get cover from a template

Hold on, is that from ANY template?

I only ask because I got tricked pretty badly during my last Apoc game by someone who claimed to have been 'playing for 20 years now'. Looking back on that battle, he really took me for a ride rule wise

Akademee wrote:

 davou wrote:
You never get cover from a template

Hold on, is that from ANY template?

I only ask because I got tricked pretty badly during my last Apoc game by someone who claimed to have been 'playing for 20 years now'. Looking back on that battle, he really took me for a ride rule wise

I cant think of a single template that allows cover to be taken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yup, page 52. All templates ignore cover

Note, when people say "Template" they mean the flame template. The two round ones are not templates, they are blast markers. This is an important distinction.

Chrysis has the right of it. A "Template" is the teardrop shape and not the round ones.

Just like when you fire any other weapon, you have to designate a target when you fire a flamer. and, importantly, must be placed so that

the template covers as many models in the target unit as possible page 52

That rule is often forgotten, making people try to manouvre their template so it hits several units for a larger total of models hit.

(like they'll designate the unit that they want to charge, just glancing it for one hit and placing the bulk of the template over a secondary target.)

Thanks for the distinction between a template and a blast marker guys, learn something new everyday

So flamers can only hit one units?
I flamed a tactical squad but placed the template so it touched a nearby Rhino as well. We played it so both units took hits, thus destroying the Rhino with my heavy flamer and torching a few marines.
I guess we were playing it wrong :/

Templates can hit multiple units, but only if it also hits the most possible amount of models in the designated target.

Haha as soon as I read the title... I knew it was going to get complicated.

You CAN just bend flame right

BlackSanguinor wrote:
Templates can hit multiple units, but only if it also hits the most possible amount of models in the designated target.

And the designated target doesn't have to be the closest one either, I ran a unit of Wraithguard with D-Scythes against a CSM player, nominated his Havocs as the primary Target and 'accidentally' clipped the corner of a nearby Rhino and 'just happened' to also hit the Quad Gun that the unit was defending. Had there been any survivors of the Havocs (which there wasn't), I would have been restricted to only charging that unit.

It is an interesting question, AL-PiXel01, and one I am having trouble answering but that could be because of sleep depravity.

The rules do clearly state wounds created by template weapons are allocated as per the allocation rules for normal shooting attacks, it is this very line that prevents us from simply resolving them against each model hit which I would find to be easier and much more logical. The paragraph before that section does also highlight that a single unit is targeted, as there is no plural on the word unit and the rule states to cover as many models as legally possible within said unit. Wound allocation for normal shooting attacks, summery found on page 12, states wounds can only be allocated to the unit which has been targeted. Page 15 goes into more detail and lacks the terminology 'target unit' instead opting for just closest model but it still is part of a sequence that has limited everything to a single unit up to this point and page 12 has set forth the ground work that wounds are allocated only to the targeted unit.

Prior to now I would of said that each individual unit hit resolves the wounds separately but now I am not entirely sure that is accurate from a Rules as Written perspective, all thanks to that one line stating 'allocate wounds normally.'

Personally:
Now, again, Game Workshop has a history of writing rules with only the most basic applications being considered so it is not surprising page 12 and 15 has not address the possibility of a special rule granting the ability to hit multiple units while also informing us to 'allocate wounds normally.' I would state that the intent is for the template to hit multiple units based on the fact the rules state that all models under the template are hit instead of something more precise like 'all models from the targeted unit are hit.' They even go out of their way to try and prevent you from doing the 'glance one from the targeted unit, hit many from the secondary unit' tactic by stating that the template has to cover as many models in the targeted unit as possible. If they intended for it to only be applied to the targeted unit then we wound not have need for this limitation and they had more then enough chance to make the wording precise enough to stop people from thinking that 'models under the template are hit' means all models under the template are hit.

If this interpretation is incorrect, don't expect people to start playing it differently any time soon as every game I have seen involving flamers hitting multiple units ended with the wounds resolved against each unit.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yes you can urn the flame template within the vehicle's range to possibly fire around corners providing that you can see at least one member of a unit clearly.

Is this still true for a hull-mounted flamer, or must your angle of fire for the template stay within the 45d. turn radius?

BunnyCommando wrote:

BlackSanguinor wrote:
Templates can hit multiple units, but only if it also hits the most possible amount of models in the designated target.

And the designated target doesn't have to be the closest one either, I ran a unit of Wraithguard with D-Scythes against a CSM player, nominated his Havocs as the primary Target and 'accidentally' clipped the corner of a nearby Rhino and 'just happened' to also hit the Quad Gun that the unit was defending. Had there been any survivors of the Havocs (which there wasn't), I would have been restricted to only charging that unit.

Regardless of survivors you're still restricted to charging the target unit.

And we have not even got to the inferno cannon on the Hellhound, which is a 12” range weapon (with only the narrow end of the template needing to be within 12”).....

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

BunnyCommando wrote:

BlackSanguinor wrote:
Templates can hit multiple units, but only if it also hits the most possible amount of models in the designated target.

And the designated target doesn't have to be the closest one either, I ran a unit of Wraithguard with D-Scythes against a CSM player, nominated his Havocs as the primary Target and 'accidentally' clipped the corner of a nearby Rhino and 'just happened' to also hit the Quad Gun that the unit was defending. Had there been any survivors of the Havocs (which there wasn't), I would have been restricted to only charging that unit.

Regardless of survivors you're still restricted to charging the target unit.

Indeed, my apologies, that is what I meant to convey. (Not that I could charge in this instance, I had recently bailed out of a slightly wrecked Wave Serpent)