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What was the intent of adding this stamp to certain Forgeworld units? I assume to bridge the gap between players who favor FW units & those who do not? Despite its existence, many including managers of Games Workshop prohibit the use of FW models. If the stamp had been worded differently do you feel it would have made a bigger impact? For example:

If the last sentence stated -

"As with all of our models these should be considered 'official', but owing to the fact that they may be unknown to your opponent, you must have the most official updated imperial armour book present in the event your opponent has questions."

Instead of -

"As with all of our models these should be considered 'official', but owing to the fact that they may be unknown to your opponent, its best to make sure they are happy to play a game using Forge World models before you start."

In the above scenario rather than leaving it to the discretion of the community it would, without any doubt be completely 40k legal. That is not to say players/tournament organizers could not still ban it or choose not to play with it. Its just that right now as a result of the above wording there is this grey area where "Yeah its official if my opponent says so....sorta?"

What are your thoughts?

Please no... I'm sure that you have good intentions Benny, but check out (from memory) Kronk, Loki and Peregrine's sigs, they all include (or maybe they used to) links to discussions on this that go back and forth for 30 pages before it eventually gets locked, no one benefits apart from those who enjoy watching internet scuffles. Can we please just...not?

What motyak said.

tl;dr: Ask your opponent before using FW units.

I don't think it matters either way.


In tournaments, the rules of that particular tournament apply. If the TOs decide that everyone needs to dress in pink bunny suits to participate, that'll be the rules. If the TOs decide to ban all miniatures painted blue, that'll be the rules.

In non-tournaments, you should never field anything or play anything that your opponent isn't happy with anyhow. It's a hobby. If you're playing the game in a way that your opponent isn't happy with, you're doing it wrong.

 motyak wrote:
Please no... I'm sure that you have good intentions Benny, but check out (from memory) Kronk, Loki and Peregrine's sigs, they all include (or maybe they used to) links to discussions on this that go back and forth for 30 pages before it eventually gets locked, no one benefits apart from those who enjoy watching internet scuffles. Can we please just...not?

Yeah it isn't my intent to create drama. Just getting back into the hobby after many years & I just don't understand the ambiguous relationship between GW & FW. They create models for the same universe & are both owned by same company. Why the division?

Commissar Benny wrote:


Yeah it isn't my intent to create drama. Just getting back into the hobby after many years & I just don't understand the ambiguous relationship between GW & FW. They create models for the same universe & are both owned by same company. Why the division?

Why is GM selling some cars branded as "Chevrolet" and some cars as "Cadillac"?

And would it be ok if I bring a Chevy to a Cadillac-fan-convention?

Commissar Benny wrote:

 motyak wrote:
Please no... I'm sure that you have good intentions Benny, but check out (from memory) Kronk, Loki and Peregrine's sigs, they all include (or maybe they used to) links to discussions on this that go back and forth for 30 pages before it eventually gets locked, no one benefits apart from those who enjoy watching internet scuffles. Can we please just...not?

Yeah it isn't my intent to create drama. Just getting back into the hobby after many years & I just don't understand the ambiguous relationship between GW & FW. They create models for the same universe & are both owned by same company. Why the division?

so they can charge more for a "special" brand and make more money.

theyre also probably crunching numbers and testing the waters contemplating moving the whole thing over to direct only.

 Zweischneid wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:


Yeah it isn't my intent to create drama. Just getting back into the hobby after many years & I just don't understand the ambiguous relationship between GW & FW. They create models for the same universe & are both owned by same company. Why the division?

Why is GM selling some cars branded as "Chevrolet" and some cars as "Cadillac"?

And would it be ok if I bring a Chevy to a Cadillac-fan-convention?

If the 'CO' said yes, then it is okay

 Zweischneid wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:


Yeah it isn't my intent to create drama. Just getting back into the hobby after many years & I just don't understand the ambiguous relationship between GW & FW. They create models for the same universe & are both owned by same company. Why the division?

Why is GM selling some cars branded as "Chevrolet" and some cars as "Cadillac"?

And would it be ok if I bring a Chevy to a Cadillac-fan-convention?

I think a more apt comparison would be "would it be ok if I bring a Chevy to a GM fan-convention where most people have Cadillacs", to which my answer would be "yes, absolutely".

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


I think a more apt comparison would be "would it be ok if I bring a Chevy to a GM fan-convention where most people have Cadillacs", to which my answer would be "yes, absolutely".

Perhaps. But it doesn't hurt making sure ahead of time if it's truly a GW fan-convention, or a Cadillac-fan convention. Nobody can get hurt by simply asking up-front, no?

 Zweischneid wrote:
I don't think it matters either way.


In tournaments, the rules of that particular tournament apply. If the TOs decide that everyone needs to dress in pink bunny suits to participate, that'll be the rules. If the TOs decide to ban all miniatures painted blue, that'll be the rules.

In non-tournaments, you should never field anything or play anything that your opponent isn't happy with anyhow. It's a hobby. If you're playing the game in a way that your opponent isn't happy with, you're doing it wrong.

My opponent isn't happy with me bringing troops to matches, should I simply ignore the FoC in order to please my opponent?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


My opponent isn't happy with me bringing troops to matches, should I simply ignore the FoC in order to please my opponent?

In a friendly game... yes (if your opponent is genuinely unhappy with them for some reason, and not just winding you up).

Why would you ever want to make somebody else's hobby-time unpleasant? It would take a truly rotten human being to even consider doing that, no?

And of course, if YOU are unhappy with the way things go, you're free to walk as well.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


I think a more apt comparison would be "would it be ok if I bring a Chevy to a GM fan-convention where most people have Cadillacs", to which my answer would be "yes, absolutely".

Perhaps. But it doesn't hurt making sure ahead of time if it's truly a GW fan-convention, or a Cadillac-fan convention. Nobody can get hurt by simply asking up-front, no?

On that, we could have agreed had I not secretly been a badger in disguise out to crush humantiy.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
I don't think it matters either way.


In tournaments, the rules of that particular tournament apply. If the TOs decide that everyone needs to dress in pink bunny suits to participate, that'll be the rules. If the TOs decide to ban all miniatures painted blue, that'll be the rules.

In non-tournaments, you should never field anything or play anything that your opponent isn't happy with anyhow. It's a hobby. If you're playing the game in a way that your opponent isn't happy with, you're doing it wrong.

My opponent isn't happy with me bringing troops to matches, should I simply ignore the FoC in order to please my opponent?

That seems like a silly comparison. If your opponent was saying that then you may want to find someone else to play, if he is unwilling to let you use a significant portion of your army

Oh god, here we go again

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
I don't think it matters either way.


In tournaments, the rules of that particular tournament apply. If the TOs decide that everyone needs to dress in pink bunny suits to participate, that'll be the rules. If the TOs decide to ban all miniatures painted blue, that'll be the rules.

In non-tournaments, you should never field anything or play anything that your opponent isn't happy with anyhow. It's a hobby. If you're playing the game in a way that your opponent isn't happy with, you're doing it wrong.

My opponent isn't happy with me bringing troops to matches, should I simply ignore the FoC in order to please my opponent?

Apples to Oranges. FoC is a part of the core rules whereas FW is an add-on.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


My opponent isn't happy with me bringing troops to matches, should I simply ignore the FoC in order to please my opponent?

In a friendly game... yes (if your opponent is genuinely unhappy with them for some reason, and not just winding you up).

Why would you ever want to make somebody else's hobby-time unpleasant? It would take a truly rotten human being to even consider doing that, no?

And of course, if YOU are unhappy with the way things go, you're free to walk as well.

I thought the point was to play a game based upon agreed upon perimeters, and if nothing of that sort, the rules given by the game itself.

I would think the only way to make someone else s hobby-time unpleasant is to be a dick, or a cheater. Not just following the rules. (With exception of warp-quake/old daemons, that really was just dickish).

Like in MTG, sure you might not like control decks, but they are legal to play against.

Apples to Oranges. FoC is a part of the core rules whereas FW is an add-on.

I'm sorry, but your house-rules against Official GW models doesn't really negate the fact they are official, legal models.

Commissar Benny wrote:
What was the intent of adding this stamp to certain Forgeworld units?

The intent is just what it says: anything with that stamp is part of the standard game of 40k, just like any codex unit.

Despite its existence, many including managers of Games Workshop prohibit the use of FW models.

What you need to remember is that GW's retail stores exist for the sole purpose of generating impulse purchases. Allowing FW models in the store doesn't help with this because a customer can't buy them immediately, and if they have time to go home and think about their purchase before making an online order they might decide they don't really want it after all. And since the purchase will go through a separate division of GW it won't count towards the local manager's sales numbers, and GW is obsessed with minimum (and impossible) performance standards for local managers.

The "confusion" here only exists if you are suffering from the absurd delusion that GW's retail stores exist to contribute anything to the hobby or players.

In the above scenario rather than leaving it to the discretion of the community it would, without any doubt be completely 40k legal.

It already is. The fact that certain members of the community dislike FW rules and want to exclude them doesn't make GW's position ambiguous.

Its just that right now as a result of the above wording there is this grey area where "Yeah its official if my opponent says so....sorta?"

This is no different than any other rule in 40k. If your opponent doesn't like orks you can't force them to play against your ork army. The "make sure they are happy" statement is just a reminder that, while most people have a pretty good idea of what orks do and know if they want to refuse to play against orks, not everyone is familiar with FW rules and able to decide whether or not to play against you without taking a minute to look over the rules and think about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Apples to Oranges. FoC is a part of the core rules whereas FW is an add-on.

Not according to GW, since they have clearly stated that FW rules are part of the standard game.

 Peregrine wrote:


Not according to GW, since they have clearly stated that FW rules are part of the standard game.

Source? The stamp clearly states they are intended to be used in standard games, not that they are standard themselves.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Source? The stamp clearly states they are intended to be used in standard games, not that they are standard themselves.

"Intended to be used in standard games" means they are standard units.

To the OP: the distinction is only between the methods and style of distribution and development. FW can't (ATM) be moved to GW stores, it lacks the necessary capacity. So the models and rules are sold in slightly different ways. The rules are perfectly legal; I can go to the GW website, see a blog post about FW, go to the GW owned FW website, buy a book, and receive a book with "copyright GW" written inside, telling me that it is official.
Either way, this thread should be locked; go and look at Loki's signature for example.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


I thought the point was to play a game based upon agreed upon perimeters, and if nothing of that sort, the rules given by the game itself.

That's not my reading of the hobby.

Still, if it is yours, including a provision of "ask-your-opponent-nicely-beforehand-if-he's-happy-with-you-using-Forgeworld" among these "agreed upon perimeters" would seem a good way to make sure different expectations of what "the point" of this hobby is can co-exist nicely.

I know those stamps gave me direction, peace of mind, and incentive to actually purchase and begin playing with FW units, so even if the stamp is undermined by opponent permission, it's not like they did nothing. It was better to have added them than to have left FW the way it was. At least FW proponents then have a leg to stand on when explaining why they would want to use those "other" models and rules.

The stamp means It's a unit for 40k. No exceptions.

 sing your life wrote:
The stamp means It's a unit for 40k. No exceptions.

No.

The stamp means it's a unit that should be considered 'official' (Wikipedia on usages of Quotation Marks), along with a caveat that includes everything named after the "but" in the text of the box (i.e. the last 4 lines).

The caveat also applies to GW books though. I believe it's covered as a universal rule somewhere in the main rulebook, making Vendettas and Heldrakes no more official than 40K Approved FW units.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
The caveat also applies to GW books though. I believe it's covered as a universal rule somewhere in the main rulebook, making Vendettas and Heldrakes no more official than 40K Approved FW units.

Which is my point.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
The caveat also applies to GW books though. I believe it's covered as a universal rule somewhere in the main rulebook, making Vendettas and Heldrakes no more official than 40K Approved FW units.

Which is my point.

so your saying people cant disallow FW more than any other GW model/ruleset ?

 ausYenLoWang wrote:


so your saying people cant disallow FW more than any other GW model/ruleset ?

I am saying people can disallow FW just as like they can always disallow any GW model/ruleset.

It's not a FW-specific problem, you are right.

Every single week, there is a post here by someone who had his fun spoiled by an opponent that brought a list they considered un-fun ("un-fluffy", "un-balanced", whatever) to play against (and their opponent didn't put in enough effort to ascertain ahead of time that that the game would be fun for everyone involved).

It's a very simple rule really that governs this hobby. If you don't know your opponent, ask beforehand if he or she will enjoy playing what you brought (or plan to bring). If he (or she) thinks they might not be having fun, if there is the slightest doubt someone on the table may not be having fun, you ought to change your list or walk. FW, GW, whatever.

In tournaments, this decision isn't made game-per-game, but "collectively" by spelling out the tournament rules before the tournament (and you having the choice to sign-up for the tourney or not).

If you're not comfortable with this, you probably shouldn't be playing Warhammer 40K, because, as Tyberos notes, its the basic creed. In the basic 40K rules. In Forgeworld. In everything remotely Games Workshop oriented you'll ever do.

Learn it. Breath it. Live it. Every second you'll ever spend in this hobby.

We're not doing this again.