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Hi guys

Have been looking to get into another skirmish style game also my Girlfriend has expressed an interest in the game to go with her Malifaux crew I have seen both the 2 Player Starter Set for Hordes and Warmachine, so what is the difference between the systems (I'm aware of focus versus fury) but other then that I have almost no knowledge of the system.

Also how do the armies in the boxes play as we both know what our play styles are, just now trying to discover which faction fits and the aesetics of the mini's

Hello, and welcome to the wonderful world of Warmachine! (hordemachine)

First off, the difference between warmachine and hordes. You know about focus vs fury. This means that on a point for point basis hordes factions will tend to have much more awesome "kill everything" turns, especially if it ends in victory so they don't have to worry about all their beasts still having fury on them at the start of their next turn. Warmachine, on the other hand, will be much better suited to the "long haul", since as you kill their jacks they still have the same amount of focus to spend on spells/the rest of their jacks. It's not like in hordes where you slowly starve the caster of resources as you kill their beasts. Also, I have heard that infantry is generally better in warmachine.

So in general I guess the quick version is hordes = more big things, more aggressive, more concentrated. Warmachine = more small things, more measured offense (everything in this game is offensive, but they aren't as punchy a lot of the time), more moderated/reliable. Of course exceptions exist to pretty much all of these rules depending on which people you decide to play.

As for the battleboxes, I have read that they are a great way to start learning the game, but a horrible way to figure out how your faction actually plays. You just can't build a "representative" list at 10 points (or 15...or 25). At this stage I'd advise looking online to see what models you think are most interesting to you (and your girlfriend), then come back once you have a couple likely candidates. Each faction has a "characteristic playstyle", however like everything else in this game you can completely shake things up by swapping out for a different caster. In fact a lot of fun can be had by bringing one of the casters that breaks what your faction traditionally does, then watch your opponent failtrain as they realize they brought the wrong list to counter it (in a tournament you are allowed to bring 2-3 separate lists and decide which to play before a battle, but they all have to be from the same faction).

Just like to add that Hordes is perfectly capable of being played against Warmachine, so if either of you like models from the different games that's perfectly fine. There's a lot of debate about whether this is a balanced matchup, but it seems like the balance works, you just can't fight one game's force using the same strategies you use against your own game.

And that, as they say, is that (as the guy in Final Fantasy X says...nobody is getting to understand that reference).

The game is extremely well balanced, and Hordes can very fairly fight against Warmachine

As he said

Warmachine has a better late game and better infantry, Their feats and spell list tend to be longer as well. They often have better means of Casting spells safely thru multitudes of Arc Nodes

Hordes has a better early game, stronger Heavies, often with more initial attacks on heavies, allowing them greater damage output, they also have the ability to cast spells more freely, since unlike Warmachine they do not need to choose between empowering their Heavies or Casting spells. They can also pick and choose which spells they bring depending on what beast they bring.

More difference are on a Army by Army basis, and they have all flavor of Army styles to suit everyone fighting style

Even more so, While Factions have general 'themes' to their fighting style, they often have warcasters that can break the theme and perform fighting styles uncommon to the faction

Well reading a little more into it I think I'm leaning more to the Hordes Starter Set (for 2) as we both prefer a fast and aggressive game play, I'm personally liking the sound of the Circle especially the Fast and Agile hit hard or fail approach.

I think the Mrs would enjoy the legion as she does have a perchant for the evil/damned

So is the Hordes starter set a good place to start with each faction (legion and circle) or would we be better off purchasing individual blisters/boxsets?

I appreciate that this is a generic question and answer

The forces in the 2 player battle box give a bit of a representation of the faction as suggested but only a taste rather then the whole flavour. If you have a look at a site called "battle college" you can get an idea of what each unit does but the guides need to be taken with just a pinch of salt.

As an idea though.

Circle.

Kaya - warlock. Favours beasts over infantry support, likes hit and run attacks and has a spell which teleports/recalls a beast to her to help this. Not generally a front line caster.

Feral warpwolf - 3 attacks base, good buff target, good damage potential, ok survivability but will drop if the enemy focuses on it.

Argus - 2 attacks base or one stronger attack, ranged attack that does no damage but drops the targets def making it easier to hit.

Winter argus - 2 attacks base, 2 ranged attacks which cause stationary on a critical along with damage (stationary makes a target easy to hit & lose its next activation unless they get rid of it)

Skinwalkers - highly thought of medium infantry with their attachment. Average without so I hear. Like to get stuck in.

Legion.

Lylth - shooty caster, nice tricks with her bow (shoot then move due to 'bushwhack', anything she hits she ignores range & line of sight for casting spells at it and I think she also autohits with the spells.)

Carnivean - this is a beast. 3 attacks + 1 ranged with assualt (charge, then shoot, then melee attacks).

Shredders x 4 - think use like a missile, they die if the get stepped on. Respectable animus however.

Blighted orgun - typical medium infantry, they have a ranged attack and assualt though.

One final note that I didn't see mentioned as a difference between hordes & warmachine is that in hordes your warlock gets extra spells based on the beasts in their battlegroup called animus. Naturally these are lost if the beasts die but they do mix things up. But i'll also reiterate the point made earlier, hordes typically prefers a blitz playstyle warmachine an attrition but naturally there are plenty of exceptions.

Enjoy.

I am certainly not an expert on those factions (more of a warmachine player) but circle is a faction with a learning curve. They rely a lot on movement tricks to get their not-that-hard-hitting beasts into a position to strike, then sometimes pull them back before the enemy can actually get at them.

Legion? It kind of has a reputation as "the cheesy faction" because they get to ignore a lot of line of sight/terrain based problems (which might hurt against circle because they tend to rely on stealth a lot). Don't know much about legion's playstyle exactly, but I think they kind of play to the "remove the enemy's ability to do things" kind of faction and use a lot of shooting.

That's all I know. I'll leave it to people more familiar with the factions to fill you in from there. good luck whatever you may choose (especially if it's Skorne, I love me some elephants).

EDIT: ouch, got sniped, with a much better reply!

Bwahaha! That's khador for you, snipers where you least expect!

Legion Starter
pLylyth, not a bad caster
Carnivean probably the 2nd most used beast in Legion
Shredders are always found in Legion lists
Blight Spears were bad, but they recently got a unit attachment that made them awesome

Circle Starter
pKaya, terrible caster
Feral Warpwolf is the lamest of the Warpwolves
Argus of both flavors are bad, but at least you get both flavors. Winter is probably slightly better, Normal has a slightly better Animus
Skinwalkers beyond terrible without UA, kinda of acceptable with it

All that I am saying, It is still an excellent choice to get a 2 player starter, you get more than your moneys worth since you also get a rule book with it. I know I bashed a lot of it, but even the worst in Hordes is still pretty effective.

I suggest as a first buy getting a Warpwolf Stalker and the UA for both Skinwalker and Blight Spears, that would give you guys some pretty amazing fights to start with and some options in List building. Warpwolf Stalker is closer to a fighting equal to the Carnivean than the Feral is

Oh and get a different caster for Circle, Lylyth is good and will work well... Kaya kinda of not so much (her epic version is really good tho)


19pt lists for both
Kaya the Wildborne (or any 6 pt caster)
Argus
Warpwolf Stalker
Warpborn Skinwalkers (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Warpborn Alpha

Lylyth, Herald of Everblight
Shredder
Shredder
Carnivean
Blighted Ogrun Warspears
Warspear Chieftan

Thank you all that is very helpful

 Talamare wrote:
Circle Starter
pKaya, terrible caster
Feral Warpwolf is the lamest of the Warpwolves
Argus of both flavors are bad, but at least you get both flavors. Winter is probably slightly better, Normal has a slightly better Animus
Skinwalkers beyond terrible without UA, kinda of acceptable with it

pKaya is one-sided, but at 25pts and under she can cause some headache to your opponent. As she doesn't really support her army, she will be tough to play beyond 25pts.
Feral as seven attacks with MAT7. He is behind the Stalker who can take on heavies and infantry, but I definitely prefer the Feral over the Pureblood.
Argus I agree with.
Skinwalkers with a caster that can boost them (Kromac, pMorvahna, eMorvahna) becomes hard to remove from a zone, and with the Alpha and Shifting Stones to heal they become quit tough. Add a Gatorman witch doctor, and they are literally "tough".

 Talamare wrote:


Skinwalkers beyond terrible without UA, kinda of acceptable with it

Are you daft, man? Skinwalkers are amazing with the alpha! I won't fight for their cause without him since neither terrible nor just dull make them desirable, but those guys are ruthless with the officer. Surely better than "acceptable." Your view on the starter set contents is a bit negative across the board but I'm surprised to see it extend to one of the best officers in the game.

Aside from that his review of the starter set is pretty much spot on.

Now, what you can do is you can buy the Warpwolf plastic kit, build a Stalker, and use the extra bits to make the Feral from the starter into a Pureblood. You get a nice spray attack instead of the bite and your other warpwolves can warp Ghostly.

Although I wouldn't say the Feral is a bad choice. Its just not the Stalker

And Skinwalkers are the bees knees with the UA. without the UA they have the same problem most other heavy infantry have, few attacks. With the UA, they heal when they kill stuff and get an extra attack each. that takes them from meh to OMGWTFBBQ!!!

I actually disagree with the review on the starter set.

Kaya1 is not the strongest Circle warlock, I'll admit to that. But in Circle, a "lower tier" warlock is pretty much a middle-tier one elsewhere a lot of the time. Her main weakness is her lack of infantry-control. But her ability to yo-yo, the passive buff she has, Occultation and as good a nuke as Spirit Fang can be, she is not terrible at all.

I also feel she has a good early warlock vibe. She's fragile as hell, that's true. But this teaches you good habits for Circle (protect your god-damned warlock) and spells like Soothing Song and Spirit Door let you do a lot of "basic" trickery on fury management and yo-yos while building up. Pack Hunters even has a nice trianing wheel aspect in kind of making any warbeast awesome in melee. In addition, her play style overlaps a bit with Kromac, Grayle and Kaya2. Getting a lot of the basics with her helps a lot in moving to those guys as she kind of "falls out" above 35pts.

Even then she has some interesting stuff on helping units. Occultation I find has this weird effect of making a lot of units I am less comfortable with suddenly much better as she can patch survivability issues. Really not as bad as been said.

The Feral Warpwolf is actually pretty common in Circle lists of late. It is the most survivable living non-character heavy, with the highest total DEF/ARM when Warping ARM and most wounds out of them. It's MAT 7, which does matter a lot even with Primal. And it also dishes out the most damage when you get into things like teleporting and the lot. It's main hold-back is its animus, but it makes up with that in a lot of other places. I use it with about four or five of twelve warlocks in lists.

Winter Argus is actually better than given credit. It's great with Kaya for the animus. It's a SPD 7 two-spray beast she can bring home too. It holds zones pretty well against stuff that can't hit it easily and is durable when there.

Argus is probably the worst of the box. It doesn't hit hard, it's not super durable and four points is a Gorax. For the purposes of a starting battlebox it is actually useful since it passes Pathfinder about. It's a training wheel beast, but note that at the cost of the box, it is practically free, so not a big deal.

Skinwalkers are great with the Alpha. They are mediocre without it, but they are worth it and if you split the box with a friend, you effectively get them and the battlebox for free.

I'm in a camp that thinks that it's best to have one of each Warpwolf (including Ghetorix) for Circle lists long term. I reach for the Feral more than the Pureblood of late since for sheer durabilty and killing power it is actually hard to match in Circle.

And stuff.

The Argus isn't bad, its just not worth 4 points when you can only really afford a single 4 point beast because the heavies are on the expensive side. And its either it or the Gorax. That Animus is actually really good on a Stalker thats going bezerk, although you need to balance if you want it to be able to Sprint away.

There are a few lists out there that you take a couple Argi as throw-away missles. That's not a terrible strategy I find with some warlocks, but not something I would suggest to build towards. Most people have two Argi when they start Circle so it works there.

And stuff.

 Dais wrote:

 Talamare wrote:


Skinwalkers beyond terrible without UA, kinda of acceptable with it

Are you daft, man? Skinwalkers are amazing with the alpha! I won't fight for their cause without him since neither terrible nor just dull make them desirable, but those guys are ruthless with the officer. Surely better than "acceptable." Your view on the starter set contents is a bit negative across the board but I'm surprised to see it extend to one of the best officers in the game.

What can I say, I am a glass/empty kinda of guy

When I first saw and reviewed stormwall I berated it for not having enough hit boxes

Talamare wrote:
Circle Starter
pKaya, terrible caster
Feral Warpwolf is the lamest of the Warpwolves
Argus of both flavors are bad, but at least you get both flavors. Winter is probably slightly better, Normal has a slightly better Animus
Skinwalkers beyond terrible without UA, kinda of acceptable with it

All that I am saying, It is still an excellent choice to get a 2 player starter, you get more than your moneys worth since you also get a rule book with it. I know I bashed a lot of it, but even the worst in Hordes is still pretty effective.

Oh and get a different caster for Circle, Lylyth is good and will work well... Kaya kinda of not so much (her epic version is really good tho)

I have to disagree strongly with this assessment. It is extremely skewed, and extremely innacurate to boot.
pKaya is extremely undervalued. I’ve seen opponents dismiss her countless times, only to be gobsmacked when they realised her game is actually quite effective. And that’s true for so many things in warmachine. The PP boards and other WM boards are very guilty of fostering a kind of “group think” where only a handful of things are seen as viable, when in actual fact, the vast majority of things are extremely workable, even if they need the right synnergies to get there. I know too many excellent gamers who simply don’t bother with the WMH forums for that very reason. You seem to be a bit guilty of it as well. With respect, you need to get out of that mindset.
pKaya is an excellent “starter” caster. She has a great passive buff for her beasts that makes her a top line beast caster. Her spells – spirit fang, spirit door and occultation open up a huge amount of shenanigans. At her heart, she is an alphastriking/hit and run caster, and she does this extremely well-maybe better than most. Spirit door is awesome. Maybe she loses a bit of her effectiveness beyond 35pts, but up to, and including that, she is a valid choice. Her big weakness is a playstyle that avoids tarpitting, andgrabbing scenarios (due to her yo yo style of play), and aside from occultation, she doesn’t support her troops as well as her beasties – so self sufficient troops choices are mantadory. No different from top line casters like Khadors Old Witch in that vein! Then again, plenty circle choices (or circle affiliated mercenaries) are either self sufficient, or unable to use “faction-only” buffs.

Feral Warpwolf is “lamest”. That’s like saying the Bugati Veyron is the lamest of the supercars. Feral is fantastic. I love the fact that each of our warpwolves is different, brings something unique to the table, and none are necessarily auto-includes to the exclusion of the other. “spam” is not generally rewarded in this game. There is more reason to take different beasts than multiple copies of one. The stalker, obviously is a a prime choice for first warbeast. Great hitting power, useful warps (strength, berzerk, prowl), pathfinder, reach. Awesome animus (seriously, he is worth it for this alone).Now for second/third warbeast, its an interesting one. Sure, you could do a second stalker, or look at what the others have. Pureblood has ranged abilities, and a great animus. He also has a very useful warp – “ghostly” that transfers over to other warpwolves. A very valid choice, and useful second line beast. Look at Ghetorix. Rubbish animus and warps (strength is about all that’s useful-the others are situational), but very good stats and an absolute monster in melee. He is expensive, however. Alas, he’s a character so can only be taken in one list. Very good, very solid beatstick. He’ll wreck anything, which is extremely necessary, but he offers little other utility aside from his primary role as “awesome beatstick”. And that’s OK – he’s meant to be a beatstick.And the feral. “lame”? No. Unlike the pureblood and the stalker, he is MAT7 (awesome), and he is cheaper than ghetorix and the stalker. He also comes with more attacks. He has a rubbish animus, but I would argue he has the most well rounded list of warps available, which more than makes up for it – he can warp speed, strength, or armour. All of which are extremely useful. At the end of the day, he, like ghetorix is a beatstick. He offers little other utility other than “smashing face”. And just like ghetorix – its OK. That facet of simple solid beatstick can never be underestimated, or undervalued.
For my point of view, the feral is awesome. Before I got my two stalkers, he was my go-to beast. And I still rate him highly. He might not be “first choice”-that goes to “Knuckles”, my stalker. But as a second, or third beast with krueger, kaya, or kromac- absolutely valid choice.

Argus is tricky. If the bb argus had the stats of the winter argus, I wouldn’t complain. Its not bad – just overpriced. It’s a 3.5pt beast, to be fair. That said, it has good speed and a useful animus (try it with the lord of the feast sometime) and at the battlebox stage, its useful.

Skinwalkers are “beyond terrible”. “kind of acceptible” defines them with one of the best UAs in the game? OK, the hyperbole is getting to me. It’s gone far enough. Stop it. Please. Skinwalkers are excellent tarpits first and foremost. Put inviolable resolve on them and they go up to arm20 in melee. They’re multiwound infantry meaning they have a lot of soakage. It takes a lot to kill them, and they’re fantastic for jamming zones, holding infantry at bay and generally offer circle, as a whole, a level of attrition play they’ve never had. They’re some of the best jamming units in the game. They’re also medium based, which stops LOS to Kromac, and prevents tramples. Only weakness for the basic unit is a lack of hitting power outside of CMAs. But they’re not about killing stuff – they’re about soaking up the other guys attacks while stalkers and ferals do the killing. But with the UA, they gain 2 attacks each, and blood drinker, which whilst situational is a useful healing trick. The 2 attacks each though is great. Their big turn off is gone. Now they can kill stuff back. And they’ve got 6 medium bases. That’s a lot of board control, and board denial. Don’t dismiss it.

Talamare wrote:
What can I say, I am a glass/empty kinda of guy
When I first saw and reviewed stormwall I berated it for not having enough hit boxes

With respect, this could do with some tweaking as your comments are completely off base. And im not saying that to be rude. Saying the Stormwall needs more hit boxes is ridiculous – its already the best collossal out there. If this was indicative of the glass is empty, then the only good things in the game are egaspy, ehaley, stormwall, the deathjack and Kovnik Joe. Nothing is ever as bad as the forums say. Internet hyperbole truly is laughable, and irresponsible, and genuinely destroys creatvitiy and diversity in the game for absolutely no reason. “terrible” in this game means very little. Assault Kommandos are “terrible”, but they laugh at cryx and menoth. Put them with psorscha, and they’ll shred their way through whole squads. With the right support, pretty much everything in this game is viable.

So quick Question what is the difference between pKaya and eKaya and also have seen some posts with Kaya2 what does all this mean?

"everything in this game is viable"

Epic Morghoul looked up from crying to himself long enough to laugh at you

Nah, I have a soft spot for what is most likely the worst warlock in the game. His model is just so awesome... and to be fair it is possible to win with him, although I'm guessing winning with any other skorne warlock would be easier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Carpe_Jugular wrote:
So quick Question what is the difference between pKaya and eKaya and also have seen some posts with Kaya2 what does all this mean?

There are some warcasters/warlocks where multiple versions of the same caster have been printed to reflect their continued story development (and because a new version of an already awesome caster will probably drive more sales).

Originally there were "prime" versions (where the 'p') came from. And back in the mists of time before I started playing PP released "epic" versions of some casters (there's the 'e'). These epic versions were designed deliberately to be more powerful, and were only allowed in games over a certain points limit. When the 2nd edition of Warmachine released they scrapped that and went with equal power levels across the board, but different abilities.

Different people have different names for the 2 (or in some cases 3) versions of any given caster. Generally anything with 'e' or '2' is referring to the epic version. The 3rd incarnation of warcasters is still relatively new, so nobody really knows what to call them yet. Most people settle for jamming a '3' in their name somewhere to replace an 'e' (which I'm not a big fan of, but whatever you want to say I suppose).

dementedwombat wrote:"everything in this game is viable"

Epic Morghoul looked up from crying to himself long enough to laugh at you

You ignored the part where i wrote "with the right support". Some things need support to do their best, other things are situational. big difference from being "bad".

Carpe_Jugular wrote:So quick Question what is the difference between pKaya and eKaya and also have seen some posts with Kaya2 what does all this mean?

ekaya refers to "epic" kaya, as opposed to "prime" Kaya, which in terms of the story is Kaya, just at a different point in her story/evolution as a character. back in mark 1, PP released "epic" casters which were different versions of the original casters - they were more powerful, cost more points and could only be used in larger games. it meant to represent that, as the storyline progressed, characters themselves also changed and evolved, and essentially "levelled up". In the switch over to mark 2, PP decided that rather than being better/for large games, they'd be "different".

So take Khador's caster irusk. his original incarnation is him being an infantry buffing support/attrition caster. his epic version is him being a control/denial caster with movement manipulation abilities and infantry support. both play radically different. try Vlad. prime vlad is a support/assassination caster. cast "signs and portents", and all his doods become more accurate and hit harded. cast "blood of kings", and lad becomes an assassination caster from hell (+3 to all his stats). epic vlad is far less like this, and far more of an "enabler". rather than buffing everyone, his buffs are more "pinpoint" with hand of fate and transference and his feat is like "blood of kings" in as far as what BoK does for vlad, eVlads feat does for a certain number of his doods (so imagince 6 doom reavers with +3 to ALL their stats for a turn, for example) . essentially, he turns basic doods into supermen for a turn, rather than himself (potentially) every turn.

With Kaya, its kind of the same. her epic incarnation gives her a sidekick warbeast called Laris, a different feat and spell list, and lets her play a different game. its not better, or worse, just different.

If you hate N3mo, you must also dislike Threemo

Deadnight wrote:

I have to disagree strongly with this assessment. It is extremely skewed, and extremely innacurate to boot.

What is also painful is your overuse and incorrect usage of the word hyperbole
I wasn't making exaggerated claims, I was giving my views on each specific subject

I will acknowledge the mass amount of group think, and I more than acknowledge that everything is playable
Just somethings are more playable than others

You said it yourself, you reach for Stalker before Feral and you acknowledge the massive amount of utility that the Pureblood brings. I will honestly admit I didn't view Ghet as a warpwolf since he is a character. Feral is not weak, but Stalker would be a better match for Carnivean.

Skinwalkers are expensive with far too little attacks and no real utility. They have decent survivability in melee when engaged but are squish before then and by the time they reach melee they are near dead already. On the other hand their UA makes them acceptable since it fixes their low attack # and restores them up so they can tarpit their points worth

and I just meant when I very first saw Stormwall, before they announced any info on the rest. It did seem like it was light on hitboxes (don't worry, I fully acknowledge him now)


Anyways, I am glad that my post inspired so many descriptive counter posts. It resulted in providing Carpe a multitude of information

 Talamare wrote:

What is also painful is your overuse and incorrect usage of the word hyperbole
I wasn't making exaggerated claims, I was giving my views on each specific subject

I do regard them as exaggerated, with respect. Ymmv of course. But to be fair, I find a lot of comments on the interwebs to be great at over reacting, and dismissing stuff out of hand, whereas IRL, it’s a completely different story. The gradient between useful all the time, and useful most of the time, and useful quite a bit of the time is extremely narrow if you ask me.

 Talamare wrote:

You said it yourself, you reach for Stalker before Feral and you acknowledge the massive amount of utility that the Pureblood brings. I will honestly admit I didn't view Ghet as a warpwolf since he is a character. Feral is not weak, but Stalker would be a better match for Carnivean.

You referred to the feral as the “lamest” warpwolf, and im sorry, but I disagree strongly .Indeed I did state I’ll always take a stalker, but that doesn’t relegate the usefulness the feral brings. If anything, its more of an argument that the stalker is OTT. Which it is, but im not gonna complain – its an awesome beast!
Pureblood brings a very useful warp, and an animus. Beyond that though, I have very little time for him. He lacks hitting power. He lacks attacks. The stalker has as many, but gets reach and pathfinder with it. Ghetorix is a monster. Feral has higher mat and more attacks. As beatsticks go, the others completely outshine him in my experience. As I mentioned, I just see the feral as having excellent, always-useful warps (there is always a place for an arm, strength or speed warp. I genuinely cant say the same for hyper aggressive, snacking, or even prowl) and an excellent ability as a beatstick. 3 attacks at mat7 with 4 extra is a step above “not weak”, if you ask me. I will take the stalker for lightning strike, pathfinder, and his beatstickiness. Second choice is typically gonna be a choice between ghetorix, a feral, or soon the new goat for me. All have their advantages and it’s a genuinely frustrating decision to make, as none clearly shine, or stand out against the others. They all bring something “good” to the table – its just a question of which “good” stuff do you want.

 Talamare wrote:

Skinwalkers are expensive with far too little attacks and no real utility. They have decent survivability in melee when engaged but are squish before then and by the time they reach melee they are near dead already. On the other hand their UA makes them acceptable since it fixes their low attack # and restores them up so they can tarpit their points worth

Hmm I have to disagree with this assessment. All heavy infantry are in that ballpark price. To me, they’re generally worth it. Skinwalkers are faster than MOWs and other heavy infantry, especially if one of them clips some damage. Running first turn, and running to engage puts them 27” up the board on first turn (29” if one of them gets a dint), and that’s enough to put them in contesting range of objectives. I don’t see the squishyness at range either- I think you’re a bit guilty of exaggerating – slap on inviolable resolve and they’re arm18 with 8boxes. Its all but immune to small arms aside from plinks here and there. Plus you have limited time to take them down. Now, do something silly like slap occultation on them from the much disliked pKaya and all shots miss them.
I also disagree that they have to kill their own points worth. That’s a bit of a short term view. To me, if they do kill stuff, it’s a bonus. They’re there to take the hits that would kill other, more important pieces, like my warpwolves. They’re there to provide staying power, and act as an anchor, deny movement by providing board denial, as well soak attacks, and deny scenario points when they’re holding an objective. My bloodtrackers, stalkers and ferals, along with pKrueger or Kromac are quite adept at infantry clearing and can cover the skinwalkers. A units effectiveness on the board must be measured on more than just “how much did they kill”.
I have the same attitude with my eirusk list – I take men o war, and with TS, they’re going up 11” a turn. Turn 2 –typically they’re engaging stuff. Arm17, shield wall, tough. Multiple hits. Nasty combo. They block tramples, they block LOS. You have no idea how valuable that feature is. *shrug8* if they kill stuff with their 5 mat7 pow14 attacks a turn – well… great. But they’re not there to do that. My winter guard, or nyss hunters , drakhun and great bears coming up behind do all that. The MOWs primary function is literally to get in the way and soak up hits. I’ve genuinely found that in the post-collossals age of warmachine, multi-wound infantry on medium bases provide a huge boon to armies that can field them.
Back to the Skinwalkers – they give staying power to a circle army that it normally lacks. Yes – they can die (so can anything in this game), but so long as their death serves a purpose, then its OK. Plus if I field lady goat, I get to bring them all back and put them in horribly nasty places afterwards!

 Talamare wrote:

Anyways, I am glad that my post inspired so many descriptive counter posts. It resulted in providing Carpe a multitude of information

Its always interesting to do an indepth discussion of things

Before the UA, Skinwalkers did have a place I found with Baldur2, Kaya2 and Morvahna1. Baldur2 gave them an ARM buff on his feat and they saved you a point. Kaya2 would take a min' unit of them for her Themed Force. When a final list ended up wtih four heavies, you paid a point for 24 wounds, which seemed good to me. Morvahna1 gave them an ARM buff and save a warbeast, it was one of the best places for it. They didn't do a lot of work, mind, but were great at gumming things up I found.

With the UA they suddenly have the same amount of attacks as many small-based units have with their UAs (12) with nearly three times the wounds, high ARM and a lot of other good rules. Suddenly they opened up for a few more warlocks, and on top of that have great synergy with our newest. It also caused a remix of the stuff above they were already good with I feel. Quite a solid addition.

And stuff.