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Made in us
The Hive Mind





 Miri wrote:
Multi Trackers don't say "even when firing an enplaced weapon" yet it is accepted that a suit can fire a Quadgun on a Bastion and one of its own weapons. I don't know if there are any Marine vehicles with Ordnance weapons but Power of the Machine Spirit doesn't say anything about "even when firing ordnance", it simply says it "can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted."

Reading the rules for emplaced weapons shows us that the multi-tracker would allow you to fire it as a second weapon.
PotMS doesn't allow you to fire a weapon in addition to an Ordnance weapon, just like it doesn't allow a third missile in a turn.

The rules are not written with every exception in mind, it would be impossible to read them much less play them if they tried to do that. It is why they have such rules as "Codex trumps base" to resolve the issue.

Not really, but go ahead and keep pushing that false statement around.

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Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





Idaho

 easysauce wrote:
its just like shooting missles from a storm raven,

yes Power of the machine spirit lets you fire one additional WEAPON,

but you cannot fire more then 2 missles still, because the specific missle rule is 2 per turn

some things like missles/ordanence has specific restrictions on how they affect # of weapons to be fired, specific permission to overide these limitations is needed, having a general bonus +1 to generic weapons fired in no way overides specific rules RE: missles/ordinance


Ordinance has a special restriction of "cannot assault" after firing. Yet the BRB over rules itself with monsterous creatures being able to assault after firing.

You go to the highest rule set, and those are in the codex.

The codex rules. And the codex says "+1"

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Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
You go to the highest rule set, and those are in the codex.

The codex rules. And the codex says "+1"


That is really not how a permissive ruleset works...

More specific rules will trump general rules.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/24 20:17:06


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Made in us
The Hive Mind





 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Ordinance has a special restriction of "cannot assault" after firing. Yet the BRB over rules itself with monsterous creatures being able to assault after firing.

Ordnance creates a restriction. Relentless says you can assault even after firing Ordnance. This crates a conflict which we resolve with specific > general (not a written rule, but a concept that must exist for a permissive rules set to work).

Note how Relentless specifies Ordnance.
Note how multi-trackers does nothing of the sort.

No specification, no conflict.

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Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





Idaho

rigeld2 wrote:
 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Ordinance has a special restriction of "cannot assault" after firing. Yet the BRB over rules itself with monsterous creatures being able to assault after firing.

Ordnance creates a restriction. Relentless says you can assault even after firing Ordnance. This crates a conflict which we resolve with specific > general (not a written rule, but a concept that must exist for a permissive rules set to work).

Note how Relentless specifies Ordnance.
Note how multi-trackers does nothing of the sort.

No specification, no conflict.


Ok. Now explain why Power of the Machine Spirit allows you to fire additional weapons when firing ordinance.

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Made in us
The Hive Mind





 Steel-W0LF wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Ordinance has a special restriction of "cannot assault" after firing. Yet the BRB over rules itself with monsterous creatures being able to assault after firing.

Ordnance creates a restriction. Relentless says you can assault even after firing Ordnance. This crates a conflict which we resolve with specific > general (not a written rule, but a concept that must exist for a permissive rules set to work).

Note how Relentless specifies Ordnance.
Note how multi-trackers does nothing of the sort.

No specification, no conflict.


Ok. Now explain why Power of the Machine Spirit allows you to fire additional weapons when firing ordinance.

It doesn't?

Did I say that it did?
Edit: Vehicles allow you to fire other weapons as Snap Shots when you fire Ordnance - perhaps that's what confused you?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/24 20:22:50


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Made in us
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant




Ohio

A model with a multitracker and ordnance is more specific then a model with an ordnance weapon. This creates a conflict. The model with ordnance and multitracker is more specific.

Multitrackers are extra rules thus making it more specific since you are adding additional rules onto a generalized rule that exists. Multitrackers are also codex specific which overrides rulebook rules.

Codex > rulebook
Specific > general

Model with ordnance and multitracker is more specific then model with ordnance weapon.

Therefore riptide can fire 2 weapons when it fires ordnance because of the multitracker.

Set modifiers would override the mc rule but not the multitracker rule because of the multitracker being codex specific rule that overrides the main rule book allowing for an extra shot. The direct conflict is the number of shots allowed.

Mc is 2
Set modifier overrides to 1
Multitracker is specific codex allowing +1
Total is 2

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Made in us
The Hive Mind





Absolutely wrong on all counts.
A) there's no conflict.
B) you're misapplying the actual rules to how modifiers are applied. An addition never comes after a set modifier.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





Idaho

rigeld2 wrote:
Absolutely wrong on all counts.
A) there's no conflict.
B) you're misapplying the actual rules to how modifiers are applied. An addition never comes after a set modifier.


If there was no conflict. We wouldn't be debating.

We are debating. Hence there is a conflict.

Codex trumps. It can fire both.

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Made in us
The Hive Mind





So... No rules citation?
You have to have an instance like Ordnance and Relentless to have a conflict.

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Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





Idaho

rigeld2 wrote:
 Steel-W0LF wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Ordinance has a special restriction of "cannot assault" after firing. Yet the BRB over rules itself with monsterous creatures being able to assault after firing.

Ordnance creates a restriction. Relentless says you can assault even after firing Ordnance. This crates a conflict which we resolve with specific > general (not a written rule, but a concept that must exist for a permissive rules set to work).

Note how Relentless specifies Ordnance.
Note how multi-trackers does nothing of the sort.

No specification, no conflict.


Ok. Now explain why Power of the Machine Spirit allows you to fire additional weapons when firing ordinance.

It doesn't?

Did I say that it did?
Edit: Vehicles allow you to fire other weapons as Snap Shots when you fire Ordnance - perhaps that's what confused you?


Ahhh. So vehicles that have special rules saying they can fire more = "ok"
And Tau having special rules saying they can fire more = "not ok"

Perfect consistency there.

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Sneaky Sniper Drone




Firebase Zulu

rigeld2 wrote:
Absolutely wrong on all counts.
A) there's no conflict.
B) you're misapplying the actual rules to how modifiers are applied. An addition never comes after a set modifier.


Never mind the fact that you can't apply the statline modifiers rule to something that isn't a stat line.

As for the conflict. One rule says I can only fire 1 weapon (ordinance) and another rule says I can fire one additional weapon without limitations as to the type of weapon that can be fired. How can you possibly claim there is no conflict there?
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 Steel-W0LF wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 Steel-W0LF wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Ordinance has a special restriction of "cannot assault" after firing. Yet the BRB over rules itself with monsterous creatures being able to assault after firing.

Ordnance creates a restriction. Relentless says you can assault even after firing Ordnance. This crates a conflict which we resolve with specific > general (not a written rule, but a concept that must exist for a permissive rules set to work).

Note how Relentless specifies Ordnance.
Note how multi-trackers does nothing of the sort.

No specification, no conflict.


Ok. Now explain why Power of the Machine Spirit allows you to fire additional weapons when firing ordinance.

It doesn't?

Did I say that it did?
Edit: Vehicles allow you to fire other weapons as Snap Shots when you fire Ordnance - perhaps that's what confused you?


Ahhh. So vehicles that have special rules saying they can fire more = "ok"
And Tau having special rules saying they can fire more = "not ok"

Perfect consistency there.

Yes. One explicitly talks about Ordnance, one doesn't.
See the difference?

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Horrific Howling Banshee




 Steel-W0LF wrote:

Ahhh. So vehicles that have special rules saying they can fire more = "ok"
And Tau having special rules saying they can fire more = "not ok"

Perfect consistency there.


Stop ignoring words. Vehicles have a specific mention for Ordnance that they can fire other weapons as Snapshots. In fact, the Ordnance rule itself only restricts non-vehicles from firing multiple weapons.

Relentless allows you to fire, specifically, Ordnance after moving. Multi-Tracker never specifically calls out Ordnance.

 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 Miri wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Absolutely wrong on all counts.
A) there's no conflict.
B) you're misapplying the actual rules to how modifiers are applied. An addition never comes after a set modifier.


Never mind the fact that you can't apply the statline modifiers rule to something that isn't a stat line.

As for the conflict. One rule says I can only fire 1 weapon (ordinance) and another rule says I can fire one additional weapon without limitations as to the type of weapon that can be fired. How can you possibly claim there is no conflict there?

Because nothing is telling you to ignore the Ordnance rule.

Reference Relentless.
Reference Vehicles and Ordnance.
Those are conflicts. Multi-tracker is not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/24 20:34:21


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Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





Idaho

rigeld2 wrote:
 Miri wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Absolutely wrong on all counts.
A) there's no conflict.
B) you're misapplying the actual rules to how modifiers are applied. An addition never comes after a set modifier.


Never mind the fact that you can't apply the statline modifiers rule to something that isn't a stat line.

As for the conflict. One rule says I can only fire 1 weapon (ordinance) and another rule says I can fire one additional weapon without limitations as to the type of weapon that can be fired. How can you possibly claim there is no conflict there?

Because nothing is telling you to ignore the Ordnance rule.

Reference Relentless.
Reference Vehicles and Ordnance.
Those are conflicts. Multi-tracker is not.

And nothing is telling you you can ignore the higher codex rule.

The codex rule is unrestricted. It trumps. Nothing changes that.

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The Hive Mind





It trumps if there's a conflict.
You've still failed to demonstrate one.

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Regular Dakkanaut




I tend to agree with the side of this thread arguing specific > general, so ordinance restriction overrides the benefit from the tracker


I don't know how I'd explain / defend this interpretation if I were actually playing a game though. If someone insisted they could fire a second weapon, absent a ruling from a TO, I think I'd have to dice it off or something.
   
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Fixture of Dakka





Runnin up on ya.

My personal opinion is based on a bastardized form of the mathematical concept of orders of operation.

In my mind, the rule book is a list of general instructions as it is per force involved in all of the mechanics of the game.

The codex is a smaller, more focused set of rules that are specific to the army.

Based upon this, I apply all rules from the rulebook and then any applicable rules from the codex.

Here's how my thought process works:
The rulebook states that only one weapon may be fired. The codex states that an additional weapon may be fired for models that possess a certain piece of wargear.

The rulebook states that MCs may fire two weapons.
The rulebook states that firing an ordnance weapon reduces this number to one.

As an MC, the model may fire two weapons but chooses to fire an ordnance weapon. This action reduces the number of potential shots to one as per another rule in the rulebook related to ordnance.

Once all the general rules are applied from the rulebook, I check to see if there are any codex-specific rules that apply. There is a rule in the codex that allows me to fire an additional weapon; I apply this rule and am now able to fire 1 weapon in addition to the ordnance weapon.

To me, there is no conflict, there is only the order in which rules are applied. I don't view the body of all rules as one pooled whole but as separate, contributing bodies that add content.

Obviously there are those here that would disagree with how I view the rules but that's my 2 cents and the world will keep spinning. The good news is that I never play competitively so you need never worry about my view of the world causing your blood pressure to rise.

Cheers.

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I have to side with the Ordnance +1 on this.
Ordnance says you can only fire an Ordnance weapon, but the multi-tracker affect still applies to allow you to fire an additional weapon. It doesn't specifically say it doesn't apply for Ordnance weapons and it's giving you permission to fire one extra weapon on top of what you're allowed to fire.

I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

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 Savageconvoy wrote:
I have to side with the Ordnance +1 on this.
Ordnance says you can only fire an Ordnance weapon, but the multi-tracker affect still applies to allow you to fire an additional weapon. It doesn't specifically say it doesn't apply for Ordnance weapons and it's giving you permission to fire one extra weapon on top of what you're allowed to fire.


Multitracker gives you the ability to fire an additional weapon. There is no issue here. You could have the ability to fire twenty weapons, but as soon as you fire an Ordnance weapon, you cannot fire any others. Ordnance is not a quantity of weapons you can fire but a restriction on firing other weapons. Ordnance is more specific because it mentions the firing of other weapons as an exclusion.
   
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Fragile wrote:

Multitracker gives you the ability to fire an additional weapon. There is no issue here. You could have the ability to fire twenty weapons, but as soon as you fire an Ordnance weapon, you cannot fire any others. Ordnance is not a quantity of weapons you can fire but a restriction on firing other weapons. Ordnance is more specific because it mentions the firing of other weapons as an exclusion.
That's not the way I'm reading it.
You're allowed to fire X weapons normally. Multi-tracker allows you to fire one more, regardless of what X is.
When firing Ordnance X=1, but Multi-tracker still has the effect you're allowed to fire one additional weapon.
So in this case two total.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/24 21:31:52


I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





Idaho

Fragile wrote:
 Savageconvoy wrote:
I have to side with the Ordnance +1 on this.
Ordnance says you can only fire an Ordnance weapon, but the multi-tracker affect still applies to allow you to fire an additional weapon. It doesn't specifically say it doesn't apply for Ordnance weapons and it's giving you permission to fire one extra weapon on top of what you're allowed to fire.


Multitracker gives you the ability to fire an additional weapon. There is no issue here. You could have the ability to fire twenty weapons, but as soon as you fire an Ordnance weapon, you cannot fire any others. Ordnance is not a quantity of weapons you can fire but a restriction on firing other weapons. Ordnance is more specific because it mentions the firing of other weapons as an exclusion.


But the BRB does not ever over rule a codex.

The poster above who described figuring out how many shots the BRB allows you to shoot, then going to the codex for modifiers is exactly right. One additional weapon has no modifiers to it. Meaning a model with that rule can ALWAYS fire one more weapon than the BRB would allow.

BRB allows MCs 2.
Ordinance changes this to 1
Tau codex modifies this to 2

If this was not the case. What is the point of the multi tracker on the Riptide? It's only got two weapon systems, and can already fire both for being a monsterous creature.

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Longtime Dakkanaut





I think you guys are looking at this from the wrong view.

Multi-tracker allows the model to fire +1 weapon.
PoTMS allows the vehicle to fire +1 weapon at full bs.

Using smoke launchers or going flat out prohibits shooting.
Using ordnance prohibits the MC from firing other weapons.

PoTMS cannot be used to circumvent the restriction on shooting after using smoke launchers or moving flat out.

By this precedence, multi-trackers cannot be used to circumvent the restriction on shooting in addition to ordnance.

You don't need permission to fire an additional weapon after firing ordnance, you need permission to fire anything period, which multi-trackers do not provide just like PoTMS.

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Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

The rule that tells you how many weapons you can fire and the rules that say you can't fire another weapon if you fire an ordnance weapon are two separate rules. Relentless only affects the first rule. It has absolutely no affect on the second rule.

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Buffalo, NY

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
But the BRB does not ever over rule a codex.


Yes it does. There are numerous instances where the BRB over rules a codex.

For example:
Q: There is no Black Templars vehicles reference section at the back of
the rulebook. Does this mean I should use the Codex: Space Marines
vehicle reference section instead (meaning my Venerable Dreadnoughts
are now Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill 5, for example)?
A: Yes


If codex always overrules the BRB, then the Venerable Dreads would not be WS5, BS5.

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 Steel-W0LF wrote:

But the BRB does not ever over rule a codex.


You are wrong on this. BRB "over rules" a codex whenever is appropriate ie a model can never make more than 1 attack in melee using a grenade. No matter how many attack bonuses a codex may give a model, when using grenades it can attack only once. Specific > general. The only way to by pass this restriction would be if the bonus was worded like "the model gets +1A even when using grenades". So again it would be specific > general.

The way ordnance and multitracker are worded, makes ordnance more specific so you can't use multitracker to fire 1 more weapon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/24 22:04:30


 
   
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Sneaky Lictor





Idaho

 Happyjew wrote:
 Steel-W0LF wrote:
But the BRB does not ever over rule a codex.


Yes it does. There are numerous instances where the BRB over rules a codex.

For example:
Q: There is no Black Templars vehicles reference section at the back of
the rulebook. Does this mean I should use the Codex: Space Marines
vehicle reference section instead (meaning my Venerable Dreadnoughts
are now Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill 5, for example)?
A: Yes


If codex always overrules the BRB, then the Venerable Dreads would not be WS5, BS5.


No.


A FAQ over ruled it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
copper.talos wrote:
 Steel-W0LF wrote:

But the BRB does not ever over rule a codex.


You are wrong on this. BRB "over rules" a codex whenever is appropriate ie a model can never make more than 1 attack in melee using a grenade. No matter how many attack bonuses a codex may give a model, when using grenades it can attack only once. Specific > general. The only way to by pass this restriction would be if the bonus was worded like "the model gets +1A even when using grenades". So again it would be specific > general.

The way ordnance and multitracker are worded, makes ordnance more specific so you can't use multitracker to fire 1 more weapon.


Except the grenade rule is NOT a codex rule. It's a BRB rule over riding another BRB rule.

A codex rule is only trumped by a FAQ ruling like the pervious poster erroneously tried to point to.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/24 22:11:30


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Grenades in melee is a BRB rule, bonus attacks are given by codices rules. Yet grenade rule applies over any bonus attacks in melee given by any codex. Same thing with ordnance and multitracker.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/24 22:15:35


 
   
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Calm Celestian




Florida, USA

Steel, and others agreeing with Ordinance +1, read this. Then come back and apply what you learn from Yak's post to this discussion to see why your position on this issue is incorrect. Thank you.

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