Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

cincydooley wrote:
This rule is one of the few things that I really wish 40k would adopt from the the old AT-43 rules. Move your most forward model in a unit with measurement, and then move everything else without measuring but keeping coherency. Casual play certainly allows for this, but man, if you try that in a tournament setting there are definitely some folks that lose their gak. So I definitely feel your pain.

It was a league game with a gift certificate prize, so if we consolidated moving+fleet+charge, I'd be cheating as I'd get to know whether or not a particular charge succeeded or failed before I went on to another unit. The store actually made a big push with AT-43 and sold a ton of it, but the core group of gamers there really do like the painting side of the hobby too much for prepaints, so it didn't last. There were some seriously good rules ideas in there though.

cincydooley wrote:I simply think there's a lot of disingenous bitchery that goes around from "vets" saying they've been "priced out" when in fact the only thing they've been "priced out" of is buying new armies.

I actually think this is an important distinction. For a lot of people part of the fun is collecting and building and the blue sky of limitless potential future projects. But when you come to realize that it's simply not true that you're going to be able to build an army when the inspiration strikes because you can't bring yourself to pay the asking price (even if you could easily afford it), it shuts down part of the fun. Many vets see value in the idea of continually starting a new project as one is finished for years to come and being priced out shuts this all down.

I'm a vet and I currently have more disposable income than I ever have had but that doesn't change the fact that when I look at a $75 box with 3 40mm base models in it and know that those 3 models cost less than 150 points on the table I have no inclination to buy them.

It's not about not being able to afford them, it's about not feeling like the product is worth the price tag. Yes this is subjective but it seems more and more people feel this way these days.
That is how we are being priced out, increased prices with no increase in quality means we don't want to buy anymore.

Why is it people who quit GW games feel the need to rant about why, yet people who quit any other game system are fine to leave it at quitting and moving on?

Just a weird habit I've noticed. It's like when a Superman movie comes up, everyone who hates Superman feels the need to say they hate him, but any other superhero movie and people generally keep their mouth shut and move on.

Strange why should i buy a imperial guard sentinel for 4100yen (in Japan) when i can get a Dust Tactics: Ssu Kv-3 Heavy Walker for 3,270yen (bigger primed and a statistics card.)
Simple economics.

cincydooley if you are ok with buying overpriced miniatures because it has the GW brand on it, that is ok, but stop being dickish to people that don't share your view.

I am a vet and i refuse to buy a basic marines squad because it doubled in price, yes i have the means to buy it, but it goes against my stingy Dutch genes!

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Strange why should i buy a imperial guard sentinel for 4100yen (in Japan) when i can get a Dust Tactics: Ssu Kv-3 Heavy Walker for 3,270yen (bigger primed and a statistics card.)
Simple economics.

cincydooley if you are ok with buying overpriced miniatures because it has the GW brand on it, that is ok, but stop being dickish to people that don't share your view.

I am a vet and i refuse to buy a basic marines squad because it doubled in price, yes i have the means to buy it, but it goes against my stingy Dutch genes!

Cool story bro. If you can get a game of Dust in over there, then by all means buy the model for the game you have the opportunity to play. We don't need to hear about it if you decide to quit 40k. Go sell your gak on eBay and be done with it.

 Polonius wrote:
Oh, I've straight up called people liars to their face when they claim they were "priced out." The cost to merely keep playing is pretty marginal.

There's a difference between being "priced out" in the sense of not being able to afford to play the game, and being "priced out" in the sense of not seeing enough value in a product to purchase it.

Veteran players and customers may feel pressure to keep armies updated, perhaps to stay competitive, or to have access to the current version of the rules. But if you do not feel that the price of those products is justified, and therefore do not wish to justify that price by purchasing said product, whether or not you can afford to buy it is immaterial. You can still be "priced out" in the sense that you refuse to purchase new products at the current prices, and not purchasing those products makes it difficult to get reliable or enjoyable use out of the products you already own.

This is not to say that you can't just play 2nd ed 40K in your basement with your pals. My point is that it might be unfair to call someone a liar if they feel that the current pricing structure makes playing the game enough of a hassle to sap enjoyment out of it.

I can absolutely afford to buy, say, the new Warriors of Chaos Army Book, but I won't. Now, I am not "priced out" because I wouldn't buy it if it was 10 dollars or 100 dollars (I am currently boycotting GW). But leaving that aside, because I refuse to purchase said product (which could be due to what I perceive to be an unreasonably high price tag), playing in the WHFB league at the FLGS is problematic on the verge of not being worth it. I don't know what the new rules are, I don't have anything to reference them at the table, but I am expected to use those rules nonetheless. Could it be done, sure, but is it worth it? Probably not. If I didn't buy the new army book because of the price, I would say that being "priced out" of the game is a fair characterization.

Even though price was only one of a melange of interrelated factors in the above scenario, ultimately it would have led to not playing the game, losing interest in it, and moving on. For a long time fan and customer, going through such an experience can be very frustrating. I don't like the prices, I don't think they are fair, they are way higher than they used to be, I don't want to legitimize those prices by buying the products, and so I feel that I am left with a Sophie's Choice of being suckered into a crappy deal because of my extant fandom and interest in the game (which makes me feel used and ripped off by a company I thought I had a positive relationship with), or walking away from something that has interested me for a long time.

The fact that I can go "rogue" and enjoy a new, personally created experience with the products does little or nothing to mitigate a feeling of being betrayed and taken advantage of. So I read "priced out" as "feeling taken advantage of." My annual income has little to do with what causes those negative feelings, which would probably be felt even if I arranged a 6th ed WHFB campaign in my basement, simply because I would have had to walk away from or significantly alter an established relationship with the company, if not the product itself as it existed at the time of my purchase.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Strange why should i buy a imperial guard sentinel for 4100yen (in Japan) when i can get a Dust Tactics: Ssu Kv-3 Heavy Walker for 3,270yen (bigger primed and a statistics card.)
Simple economics.

cincydooley if you are ok with buying overpriced miniatures because it has the GW brand on it, that is ok, but stop being dickish to people that don't share your view.

I am a vet and i refuse to buy a basic marines squad because it doubled in price, yes i have the means to buy it, but it goes against my stingy Dutch genes!

Cool story bro. If you can get a game of Dust in over there, then by all means buy the model for the game you have the opportunity to play. We don't need to hear about it if you decide to quit 40k. Go sell your gak on eBay and be done with it.

but stop being dickish to people that don't share your view.

I rest my case, are you related to Phill Fish in anyway?

People saying the game's becoming too expensive... are you forgetting that even across things like the necron codex change for 10 years all your models (bar phariahs) are still compatible?

I mean, all they added was a flyer, Anni barges, Ghost Arks, CCBs, Lychguards, Deathmarks, and the rest is useless anyway. I could buy 3 flyers, 3 anni barges, 3 ghost arks, 3 CCBs, 5 lychguard, and 5 deathmark all for less than $250 on ebay.

I spend roughly $200-300pa on my gaming computer just so I can play stuff on high.

 -Loki- wrote:
Why is it people who quit GW games feel the need to rant about why, yet people who quit any other game system are fine to leave it at quitting and moving on?

Just a weird habit I've noticed. It's like when a Superman movie comes up, everyone who hates Superman feels the need to say they hate him, but any other superhero movie and people generally keep their mouth shut and move on.

I think there are two possible explanations:

it might be confirmation bias on your part. You're paying attention to 40k and thus notice when people say that about 40k more than some other game you're not paying attention to.

Or

The second option might be that people are quitting 40k at an increasing rate and thus you are hearing about it more.

 cincydooley wrote:
We don't need to hear about it if you decide to quit 40k. Go sell your gak on eBay and be done with it.

People love 40k and when they figure out that they just can't make it work for them anymore, they often want to express something about that. I don't play 40k anymore for a variety of reasons, but I still love the Black Library fiction as well as the FFG 40k RPG books. I keep waiting and watching for something about the 40k miniature game to change so that it would work for me again. It hasn't come and when other people also finally throw in the towel and stop buying 40k stuff, it's a discussion I want to participate in.

So if we're not breaking Dakka's rules and more than one person wants to participate in a thread, who are you to tell people not to discuss it?

I never said people should shut up, I'm jsut saying people who quit other games do shut up.

I'd honestly like those people to speak up as well.

Like you said, forums are for discussion. The discussion has been the same for a while, it's time to add some variety. There's definitely people quitting other games - you see it in places like swap shop. 'Quitting for X, need to sell all of my stuff for Y'. I'd just like to hear a bit more from the other sides of the fences.

I think it's probably that people care more about 40k and don't actually want to quit. They wish things were different and want to talk about where they think things went off the rails.

If it seems like the same points are brought up again and again, it's probably because it's humans reacting to the same situation again and again.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Strange why should i buy a imperial guard sentinel for 4100yen (in Japan) when i can get a Dust Tactics: Ssu Kv-3 Heavy Walker for 3,270yen (bigger primed and a statistics card.)
Simple economics.

cincydooley if you are ok with buying overpriced miniatures because it has the GW brand on it, that is ok, but stop being dickish to people that don't share your view.

I am a vet and i refuse to buy a basic marines squad because it doubled in price, yes i have the means to buy it, but it goes against my stingy Dutch genes!

Cool story bro. If you can get a game of Dust in over there, then by all means buy the model for the game you have the opportunity to play. We don't need to hear about it if you decide to quit 40k. Go sell your gak on eBay and be done with it.

but stop being dickish to people that don't share your view.

I rest my case, are you related to Phill Fish in anyway?

You can choose to ignore me within your forum options. I suggest you do so.

But, you know, if you really think bold lettering does the job instead, by all means do that.

It isn't simple economics. I have no reason to buy an SSU Heavy Walker as no one in my area plays the game and I've no interest in playing against myself.

Simple logic.

Jehan-reznor if you're okay with buying miniatures for a game that no one in your area plays, that is okay, but stop making worthless nothing statements to people that don't share your view.

Simple content would be nice.

We've covered this ground before. You know nothing about Jehan-reznor's gaming situation in Japan. You don't know who he games with, what rules he might use the SSU Walker with or anything else. You don't even know if he plays miniature wargames. Lots of people buy models and miniatures to paint and not to play games with. Or he could be buying it for use in 40k.

So what did he do? He didn't bring up any of this very individualistic factors and instead compared the actual models and their price.

And what was your response? To try to tell him what he can and cannot talk about and to bring in the idiosyncratic factors to muddy the waters again. Given your response, i think his initial diagnosis of dickishness was pretty accurate.



I can totally see why he picked that model over the GW sentinel. Cheaper as well given the prices where he is.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Strange why should i buy a imperial guard sentinel for 4100yen (in Japan) when i can get a Dust Tactics: Ssu Kv-3 Heavy Walker for 3,270yen (bigger primed and a statistics card.)
Simple economics.

cincydooley if you are ok with buying overpriced miniatures because it has the GW brand on it, that is ok, but stop being dickish to people that don't share your view.

I am a vet and i refuse to buy a basic marines squad because it doubled in price, yes i have the means to buy it, but it goes against my stingy Dutch genes!

Cool story bro. If you can get a game of Dust in over there, then by all means buy the model for the game you have the opportunity to play. We don't need to hear about it if you decide to quit 40k. Go sell your gak on eBay and be done with it.

but stop being dickish to people that don't share your view.

I rest my case, are you related to Phill Fish in anyway?

You can choose to ignore me within your forum options. I suggest you do so.

But, you know, if you really think bold lettering does the job instead, by all means do that.

It isn't simple economics. I have no reason to buy an SSU Heavy Walker as no one in my area plays the game and I've no interest in playing against myself.

Simple logic.

Jehan-reznor if you're okay with buying miniatures for a game that no one in your area plays, that is okay, but stop making worthless nothing statements to people that don't share your view.

Simple content would be nice.

How about you learn some manners and stop being demeaning to people who have a different opinion than your own.
I didn't knew that you were the thread police "Did you read the thread title by the way?"
My example was perfectly reasonable within the scope of this thread.
I will not use the ignore button, because i have quite a thick skin.

Even if no-one plays the game in my area, what has that to do with anything, oh it was an example of a nothing statement, thank you.

Tone it down a bit please folks.

Thanks

The need to "announce" leaving a system or reducing purchases is because people need to leave some kind of protest in the small hope things change.
40k was fantastic around the time of 3rd edition (no comment on that rules version though...), people were excited and armies were churning out like crazy.
Prices were about right at the time, GW was communicating well, holding a ton of events and had their own forums and a HUGE amount of articles for download for free.

It all changed.

People now can only do a direct model comparison with other companies and GW since the majority of fringe benefits they used to offer are gone.

I anticipate that if they start "expiring" (writing out, made ineffective, point costly) models in new codexes in favor of new models this "pricing out" will be epidemic.

I will buy the occasional box as mentioned and hope I am wrong for the next SM codex.

<<edit: format fix>>

My point is that is it not 'simple economics' as Jehen-reznor stated. There are an abundance of other factors, of which we've already discussed AT LENGTH, that make it far more than a decision of "simple economics."

Dumbing it down to a statement like "it's simple economics" ignores of all of those other factors into an ignorant and dismissive comment, not that different from when someone pulls out the ever-popular "white knight" or "fanboy" statement.

Hell, we've even talked about how many of us have made those VALUE BASED choices to spend out money on other hobbies and not on GW products.

To answer your original question, Jehen:

1. You should buy the Sentinel instead of the SSU walker if you like how it looks more.

2. You should buy the Sentinel instead of the SSU walker if you plan on using it to play in 40k, particularly in a tournament setting.

You are not, however, the arbiter of what is "overpriced" and your little dig and insinuation that anyone doing so is wasting their money is just as--whats the word you used-- ah yes, dickish as anything I'vthat's been said on this thread.

You don't see value in GW anymore? That's fantastic. More power to you. Spend your money elsewhere.

But it becomes continually tiresome that anyone that DOES spend money with GW is condescended to like they're fiscal lunatics for doing so.

I can see the point that those who choose to protest by taking their dollars away and publicly announce it (just so it is noticed) get upset seeing others still reward "bad behavior" of the company.

That is the problem with people having independent thought.

The next logical question for each individual is where would the "last straw" be?

It is at a threshold where I care now but in a year I think it would be reduced to "meh". My Robotech stuff would be in by then...

<<edit: spelling...>>

 Talizvar wrote:

I anticipate that if they start "expiring" (writing out, made ineffective, point costly) models in new codexes in favor of new models this "pricing out" will be epidemic.

;

Now I think that's certainly a reasonable concern, but have we had any precedent of that yet?

It seems like it's just been the addition of new units, not the rendering obsolete of existing units, thats happened with the new army books.

Tau:

Kroot got a little worse, but are still effective.
Vespid are about as bad as they've ever been
The Fliers are questionably useful (I'd argue they really aren't)
The Riptide is the Bee's Knees.

Eldar
Still tons of ways to build an army.
Wraithguard/blades simply got a plastic kit. Not OP at all
Wraithknight is a great model, but rules wise just okay. Certainly not a necessity.
Dire Avengers still great.
Guardians still useful.
Jetbikes still fantastic.

Dark Angels
Probably the most recent army with an 'auto include' in the boombox skimmer. It's no Helldrake, but there's a ton of utility in them
I don't have a ton of play experience with them, but still three viable ways to build an army. Nothing "appears" to be made obsolete.

Chaos
The helldrake, obviously, is an auto-include if you're list building.
Other than that, lots of viable army building options.
Sadly, Khorne still kinda blows and Nurgle is still the best. No real change there.
Warp Talons (new unit) are pretty garbage.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

I anticipate that if they start "expiring" (writing out, made ineffective, point costly) models in new codexes in favor of new models this "pricing out" will be epidemic.

;

Now I think that's certainly a reasonable concern, but have we had any precedent of that yet?

It seems like it's just been the addition of new units, not the rendering obsolete of existing units, thats happened with the new army books.
.

Carnifex in favour of Trygon.

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

I anticipate that if they start "expiring" (writing out, made ineffective, point costly) models in new codexes in favor of new models this "pricing out" will be epidemic.

;

Now I think that's certainly a reasonable concern, but have we had any precedent of that yet?

It seems like it's just been the addition of new units, not the rendering obsolete of existing units, thats happened with the new army books.
.

Carnifex in favour of Trygon.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. The poor Carni got shot with the nerf gun, beat with the nerf stick, and was then buried in a grave of nerf.

Maybe we'll see that change whenever the new Nids book suddenly arrives. Then again, I'm hoping to see both genestealers and gaunts have their costs slashed so I can play against a huge terrifying nid swarm army.

I think the idea of 'the price got to me' is that most people still loves the hobby. But the restrictions (price) has made it impossible for them (me included) to enjoy it the way its meant to be, a few years ago this is really not a factor since prices were low enough to be justified.

The reason why we don't see too much of this type to complain from other hobbies is because the prices are increased marginally and acceptable to the general player base. Also, most game systems are structured to minimise the impact.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
I anticipate that if they start "expiring" (writing out, made ineffective, point costly) models in new codexes in favor of new models this "pricing out" will be epidemic.

Now I think that's certainly a reasonable concern, but have we had any precedent of that yet?
It seems like it's just been the addition of new units, not the rendering obsolete of existing units, thats happened with the new army books.

I agree with your analysis of the present state of affairs, I was thinking in the future if GW does not feel the new models are driving up sales they may expire a few key ones which I have seen codex to codex. (I had never quite forgiven them taking away Juggernaughts from CSM codex so long ago, but some is forgiven due to allies).

They can always "heroic scale" another unit like they did the terminators (or obliterators... I have three of the little guys, fun fielding those), my old metal termies look like squats (without the egg shape).

They have been reasonable so far, this is my pessimistic future telling: I like it when I am wrong.

 cincydooley wrote:


Dark Angels
Probably the most recent army with an 'auto include' in the boombox skimmer. It's no Helldrake, but there's a ton of utility in them
I don't have a ton of play experience with them, but still three viable ways to build an army. Nothing "appears" to be made obsolete.

Both the configuration (no TH/SS sarges) and viability of DW only forces has changed in DA. DA came out of the new codex pretty well in terms of old armies being playable, most of their stuff is usefull not counting the trash tier fliers and they don't have many under/overcosted units. Mainly you just lose synergy.

While most units will still have rules throughout changing editions I can't say my three screamer killer models are very usefull anymore.

Over time most core units will be changed into trap units and while most units can be viable in the right configuration if you are using old models then you probably can't create that configuration without buying more defeating the object of the excersise.

How is that DA flyer? I've never played against one, so that would lead me to believe that the answer is "underwhelming."

Expense has always been an issue with me. I work hard and have a pretty good income but I can’t even keep up with building an army how I would want. The fact that I can’t just buy a Hydra without ordering something from forge world or some secondary seller is a huge annoyance to me. The last draw though for me was FOB. I play IG and went undefeated till the last round when I watched a wraith knight and lord kill half my army in two turns while wave serpents and warp spiders killed the other half. My 1st two games were not easy Orks round one and Tau round two. Tau game was facing them on short board edges, it was murder. I got boarded by Eldar. I have never been boarded. It was a huge blow to me. I found I had to finally say that GW is building rules around modals and codex creep won. Maybe I sound like a sore loser but I have never lost over 40 models in a shooting faze. Dark reapers destroying my tanks while wraith knight killed guardsmen quicker then sin. I then used two wraith knights against several peoples full armies and one 3 games using only 2 wraith knights.

 Talizvar wrote:
The need to "announce" leaving a system or reducing purchases is because people need to leave some kind of protest in the small hope things change.
40k was fantastic around the time of 3rd edition (no comment on that rules version though...), people were excited and armies were churning out like crazy.
Prices were about right at the time, GW was communicating well, holding a ton of events and had their own forums and a HUGE amount of articles for download for free.

It all changed.

People now can only do a direct model comparison with other companies and GW since the majority of fringe benefits they used to offer are gone.

I anticipate that if they start "expiring" (writing out, made ineffective, point costly) models in new codexes in favor of new models this "pricing out" will be epidemic.

I will buy the occasional box as mentioned and hope I am wrong for the next SM codex.

<<edit: format fix>>

Don't know about writing out units, but other then that completely agree. If the majority speak out and make economic threats, companies usually back down. Look at the Xbox 1 DRM debacle and the EA online passes backdown.

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:
Expense has always been an issue with me. I work hard and have a pretty good income but I can’t even keep up with building an army how I would want. The fact that I can’t just buy a Hydra without ordering something from forge world or some secondary seller is a huge annoyance to me. The last draw though for me was FOB. I play IG and went undefeated till the last round when I watched a wraith knight and lord kill half my army in two turns while wave serpents and warp spiders killed the other half. My 1st two games were not easy Orks round one and Tau round two. Tau game was facing them on short board edges, it was murder. I got boarded by Eldar. I have never been boarded. It was a huge blow to me. I found I had to finally say that GW is building rules around modals and codex creep won. Maybe I sound like a sore loser but I have never lost over 40 models in a shooting faze. Dark reapers destroying my tanks while wraith knight killed guardsmen quicker then sin. I then used two wraith knights against several peoples full armies and one 3 games using only 2 wraith knights.

So you're complaining that the Str10 model was killing guardsmen after you let it get into CC with them? And that Dark Reapers, a heavy weapons unit designed to destroy tanks, destroyed your tanks? Hmmm......

Honestly, I don't think the Wraithknight is THAT good. It's solid, for sure, but it's also a considerable amount of points (as are the Riptides).

Plus, there are plenty of recent instances of new models that, quite frankly, aren't that great (Tau Fliers, Grey Knight Carlos, DA Flyer, Maulerfiend, etc...)

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:
Expense has always been an issue with me. I work hard and have a pretty good income but I can’t even keep up with building an army how I would want. The fact that I can’t just buy a Hydra without ordering something from forge world or some secondary seller is a huge annoyance to me. The last draw though for me was FOB. I play IG and went undefeated till the last round when I watched a wraith knight and lord kill half my army in two turns while wave serpents and warp spiders killed the other half. My 1st two games were not easy Orks round one and Tau round two. Tau game was facing them on short board edges, it was murder. I got boarded by Eldar. I have never been boarded. It was a huge blow to me. I found I had to finally say that GW is building rules around modals and codex creep won. Maybe I sound like a sore loser but I have never lost over 40 models in a shooting faze. Dark reapers destroying my tanks while wraith knight killed guardsmen quicker then sin. I then used two wraith knights against several peoples full armies and one 3 games using only 2 wraith knights.

We all get wrecked at some point. A few years ago in 5th, I went to a doubles tournament, and we absolutely smashed all our games except one, where a Space Wolves army managed to table our 3 Leman Russ and 3 Vendetta army by turn 3, at 1500 points. Back then I saw Wolves as incredibly overpowered. Nowadays, I just know that on that day those guys got incredibly lucky and we made a ton of mistakes - Vendettas should have used their scout move instead of standing still, and the game would have gone the total opposite way if we had fired first.

And seriously, I've been playing the new Dark Angels Codex, and as far as I'm concerned, its useless to me. I've played many games this year with it and I've come to the conclusion its not worth the effort. I can't play mechanized Greenwing with Deathwing support competitively at all, even though DA, next to Space Wolves, are in the best position for doing it. Deathwing on its own isn't competitive either. Basically, my two favorite and most frequent playstyles were killed with 6th, and CA did nothing to help. I expect nothing will change with C:SM.

I don't really like the gameplay of 6th compared to 5th altogether, though I am still clinging on because I have my Orks, Dark Eldar and Imperial Guard that are still pretty playable. The prices don't matter to me, the enjoyment I get from building and painting new models far outstrips how empty my pockets feel afterwards.

Plus, I hate the art direction of Warmahordes and Infinity, while Dust Tactics and Drop Zone Commander have non-existent communities around where I live, even though I now live near one of the biggest FLGS' in southern England.

When I went to a fluffy campaign weekend a few months ago and saw a Warmachine tournament that was running simultaneously, the fact that everyone in the 40k Campaign had fully painted armies whereas 99% of the Warmachine players had made next to no effort to paint their armies (and believe me, that is no joke or exaggeration) was enough to put me off the prospect of trying Warmachine for good. Sure, I'll play with guys who don't paint their armies, but I enjoy playing against painted armies a lot more.

MadMarkMagee wrote:
Don't know about writing out units, but other then that completely agree. If the majority speak out and make economic threats, companies usually back down. Look at the Xbox 1 DRM debacle and the EA online passes backdown.

EA games are a complete package though, the investment in prior product does not give you incentive to buy more.

GW is a rather special case, they have a strong internal culture and have cut themselves off from most forms of feedback so I am unsure if they hear "voice of customer", "voice of shareholders" appears to be the primary focus.
They also make so many internal changes that customers moving elsewhere or throttling back on purchases may get lost in the noise or be explained away.

But yes DRM makes electronic gamers see red like 40k players and Matthew Ward codexes.