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 Mr.Omega wrote:

while Dust Tactics and Drop Zone Commander have non-existent communities around where I live, even though I now live near one of the biggest FLGS' in southern England.

This is one the points I've really been trying to make, but have apparently been failing to articulate well. It doesn't matter how inexpensive a model is if you can't find anyone to play the game with. I actually think the Dust Tactics/Warfare rules are really fun, and the models are delightfully affordable. So much so that I've demoed it for FFG the past two years at GenCon. But that doesn't change the fact that I can't find a single person to play it with in my area.


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 Talizvar wrote:

GW is a rather special case, they have a strong internal culture and have cut themselves off from most forms of feedback so I am unsure if they hear "voice of customer", "voice of shareholders" appears to be the primary focus.
They also make so many internal changes that customers moving elsewhere or throttling back on purchases may get lost in the noise or be explained away.

They seem to be at least tangentially aware of that voice, as the CEO preamble addresses some of those "sky is falling" type comments that are frequent on these boards.

So, we return to the ultimate point, GW is mostly healthy because of the bulk they have acquired during their uncontested years, most LGS and players will stick to them only because, getting a game is more probable, so they do not try other things, they do not look outside and fulfill a self proclaimed prophesy.

I would love to leave 40k, however its hard to find any one who doesnt play it, id like to play Warmachine/Hordes,Dust . I made my first purchase in about three months and it was 40k. I had a Circle Orboso box in my hand and thought....Who the hell am i going to play with? Asked the guy at the counter if any one plays and i was told not really. But that i could host a game and they would let people know. I said screw it and bought a flying church. A very expensive flying church at that.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
So, we return to the ultimate point, GW is mostly healthy because of the bulk they have acquired during their uncontested years, most LGS and players will stick to them only because, getting a game is more probable, so they do not try other things, they do not look outside and fulfill a self proclaimed prophesy.

Good summary.
Is it more traditional to say "This!"?
Do not forget that their IP for "fluff bunnies" and gray zone rules for "TFG" to exploit: they have something for everyone!

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
So, we return to the ultimate point, GW is mostly healthy because of the bulk they have acquired during their uncontested years, most LGS and players will stick to them only because, getting a game is more probable, so they do not try other things, they do not look outside and fulfill a self proclaimed prophesy.

I mean, yeah. Pretty much. If you want to try and get a game to kickoff in your area, chances are you're going to have to get two starter armies. Thankfully a few systems offer this easily (Warmahordes, Flames, Dust, Heavy Gear, Bolt Action) but many don't. I'd love if Infinity and Malifaux had starter boxes. Additionally, to get a new game to launch, you have to convince other people to buy in. That takes a fair amount of effort, and has no guarantees that it will work.

And Talizvar is absolutely right that the fluff is still a HUUUUUGE draw for people with the GW IPs of 40k and Fantasy. With their expansion into digital and Black Library, theres a great chance your first introduction to the IP isn't even through the miniatures game. Maybe it's through the Warhammer Quest app that was featured on the front page of iTunes. Maybe it was through one of the novels with the great cover art at your local book seller on the new fiction releases shelf. Maybe it was because you're a PSN+ member and you got to download Space Marine for free. It's incredibly easy to get into the GW IP without laying hands on a miniature. The same can NOT be said for any of the other game systems (though Privateer's KS will certainly broaden their reach).

I must admit I find it strange when people from large urban centres say they can't find opponents for the smaller systems. There are over 2 million people in the greater Cincinnati area. And SoCal is just full of people. And then I only have a few hundred thousand people within a couple hours drive and have endless opportunities for all these other games. I used to live in the 2nd largest city in Canada and had endless opportunities to play these other games as well.

Is this just a result of screw-Canada pricing driving people away to other miniature games? If so, US and UK prices are catching up, so soon you too will have the gaming options you want.

And with the internet, it's never been easier to get in contact with other local gamers.

 frozenwastes wrote:
I must admit I find it strange when people from large urban centres say they can't find opponents for the smaller systems. There are over 2 million people in the greater Cincinnati area. And SoCal is just full of people. And then I only have a few hundred thousand people within a couple hours drive and have endless opportunities for all these other games. I used to live in the 2nd largest city in Canada and had endless opportunities to play these other games as well.

Is this just a result of screw-Canada pricing driving people away to other miniature games? If so, US and UK prices are catching up, so soon you too will have the gaming options you want.

And with the internet, it's never been easier to get in contact with other local gamers.

So in Greater Cincy we have....4 major game stores that carry miniature games. We also have a GW.

GW Games
40k and Fantasy are the primary games played at all of them. There are regular 40k leagues at 3 of the 4. There are regular Fantasy Leagues at 3 of the 4 and the GW. 3 of the 4 stores are partner level GW stores. The last store is a GW store at the level below partner.

Privateer Press Games
1 of the 4 has a regular Warmahordes League while another is starting one. 0 of the 4 stores (obviously the GW doesn't) carry a full selection of the Warmahordes lines. 2 do special orders almost exclusively. 1 carries starter boxes and a small rack of assorted blisters. 1 doesn't appear to have gotten any new product in around 6 months.

Flames of War
1 of the 4 carry the game. Another did, but liquidated their stock in late 2012 because it didn't sell. 0 of 4 have a league.

Malifaux
1 of 4 carries the full line. 2 more carry starter boxes and rules only. 1 of 4 had a very popular league (18 partipants?) that has died down recently (I'm hoping it will restart once Me2 releases)

X-Wing

4 of 4 carry stock. 2 of 4 have leagues. 2 of 4 hosted regional qualifiers.

Infinity

2 of 4 Carry random stock (mostly special orders that weren't picked up). 0 of 4 have leagues.

Dust
1 Carries the full line (they're a board game store mostly, so they carry all FFG) 2 more have smatterings of product. 0 of 4 have leagues.


Honestly, most of the non 40k or Warmahordes games that get pushed--and this is going to be a shocker I'm sure since I'm apparently a GW WhiteFanboiKnightApologist -- are done so by myself or one of the owners of one of the LGSs. We've played Freebooters Fate (which I adore), DZC, Dystopian, Firestorm, Bolt Action, Bushido, and HellDorado at that particular store, but they simply don't "catch." Despite the low entry costs for some of them, it still takes a lot to actually get a following up and running. I TRIED to get Dust up and running (quite hard--again, I demoed this for the past two years for FFG at GenCon), but it didn't catch, despite the cheaper entry point and the pre-primed models.

I agree with you, I should have a wide Varity of people to play with on any system of games. Keep in mind bigger city=more people=less work. Not allot of people right now want to go blow 100 bucks to start a game when that can pay the electric bill for next month. 100 isn’t that much to start any hobby really. But we are talking about little plastic "toys". I maybe have two shops within a 45 min drive around me. Do I want to drive for an hour or longer to go play somewhere else, no. When I was in Albuquerque NM I had a ton of shops to go to. People there seemed to play a little of everything. I had six stores within 20 min of me. When I moved back to Cali I thought I would have the same. OO have things changed. All the old shops I went to went belly up. Every one sold off their stuff because no one felt like driving an hour or 2 to go play. Most people held games at their house but to be honest it wasn’t the same. Most of the people that play HAVE been playing for awhile. So they have a nice inventory of items already. Most NEW players are using second hand armies. That are not so hot on the table, it’s not fun to play with them because if you beat them they give up on the hobby. Due to lack of funds and not being able to purchase anything to make their army stronger. If they can’t find it used and cheap, then they have to save and at that point they just give up. I think GW should make some sort of pre posed cheap starter sets for each army. As an intro box to 40k. I know DV is pretty much that but not everyone wants to play DA or CSM. If they offered something like that I’m sure we would all see more players. Like 400 points of already posed for every faction.

Maybe it was the years of paying a 50%+ premium over US prices that destroyed much of the GW related gaming community up here. Even those that did play just couldn't justify buying locally compared to getting stuff from US sellers. Then local store sales dropped and they started heavily pushing other lines that could compete with GW on price from US sellers. One store switched to pushing MTG heavily and replaced the 40k day with a regular MTG tournament. Another has just started running them concurrently and the MTG attendance is growing while the 40k attendance is shrinking.

But also what I'm talking about is connecting with other gamers online and then meeting somewhere to play. I find it so easy to do that here and where I was living previously.

Inb4 Privateer Press fanboys.

Also, yeah. The prices got to me too. Which is why I haven't bought anything from GW directly. I either get it from ebay, like my Dark Elves or my FLGS. Which sure puts some $$ in their pocket but i'm willing to do a small evil if it helps my shop.

Ive already put up a "Looking to learn dust in riverside" and "Looking to play warmachine/hordes in riverside" Thread up in the find a game section. No one responded to it. I have yet to try pure Warmachine/horde forms.

 frozenwastes wrote:

But also what I'm talking about is connecting with other gamers online and then meeting somewhere to play. I find it so easy to do that here and where I was living previously.

Well right, thats of course true. But there's a lot to be said for having a dedicated community for a game where easy pickup games are possible. And honestly, if I'm going to play one of the fringe games, I prefer to do with someone I know so we can stumble through rules and whatnot together, often in a basement, often while having a few adult beverages.

Just because you are able to make these purchases, or choose them over something else DOESN'T mean that they are not over priced...

 cincydooley wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:

But also what I'm talking about is connecting with other gamers online and then meeting somewhere to play. I find it so easy to do that here and where I was living previously.

Well right, thats of course true. But there's a lot to be said for having a dedicated community for a game where easy pickup games are possible. And honestly, if I'm going to play one of the fringe games, I prefer to do with someone I know so we can stumble through rules and whatnot together, often in a basement, often while having a few adult beverages.

I agree. I’m still new to my area, I have networked as much as I could and came across a few people who I get along with. But they are vet players who are so sunk into 40k ,it would be like up rooting a tree with a plastic shovel to get them to play something else, and be serious about it.

 AtariAssasin wrote:
Just because you are able to make these purchases, or choose them over something else DOESN'T mean that they are not over priced...

This is a subjective call.
Whatever the market will bear.
Feel like we are in a game of "chicken" with GW seeing how high they can go until their customers flinch away.

 AtariAssasin wrote:
Just because you are able to make these purchases, or choose them over something else DOESN'T mean that they are not over priced...

Starter box for warmachine is 50 bucks for a army you can actualy play with!! Anything added to it is an extra not a "need to play it to be legit". You get a mini rule book to. Plus the mins in the box are worth double the value! Dust is super cheap a unit of guys for 20 bucks yes please. Build a army that you can enjoy and compete with for under or a litle over a 100, yes please.

 AtariAssasin wrote:
Just because you are able to make these purchases, or choose them over something else DOESN'T mean that they are not over priced...

Hey welcome to the convo. I'm assuming the rest if the thread was TL;DR for you as we've circa led this drain about three times already now. Value and the phrase "overpriced" are completely subjective.

SheSpits wrote:
Ive already put up a "Looking to learn dust in riverside" and "Looking to play warmachine/hordes in riverside" Thread up in the find a game section. No one responded to it. I have yet to try pure Warmachine/horde forms.

If you're looking to start playing Privateer Press or Wyrd games, each has a volunteer program (FFG might as well) in which you can contact someone and talk about getting a demo. Both companies have a list of their Pressgangers (PP) and Henchmen (Wyrd) so that you can contact them about getting a demo.

Alternatively, do what I did. I took my Malifaux* stuff to the FLGS in my area (I had just moved) and set up to demo. I got a few people hooked and now have a small group of gamers.

* - You can use w/e game you wish to start playing.

A combination of the ever-rising prices and dislike of the feel of 6th edition stopped me from playing WH40k. Not the power creep/codexs/rules. The spam of fliers, large monster models, and the 30%+ price increase that I've seen since I started playing is what stopped me.

I priced out an IG army back in 4th ed, then in the new 5th ed codex, and now in 6th. Not at all.

SheSpits wrote:
Ive already put up a "Looking to learn dust in riverside" and "Looking to play warmachine/hordes in riverside" Thread up in the find a game section. No one responded to it. I have yet to try pure Warmachine/horde forms.

Go try on the Privateer Press forums. And the FFG ones. And boardgame geek maybe. Start a general hobby gaming facebook group for your city.

As for Cincy's approach of demoing games, it sounds more like "seeing what sticks" rather than a decided effort to pick one and develop a community for it.

SheSpits wrote:

 AtariAssasin wrote:
Just because you are able to make these purchases, or choose them over something else DOESN'T mean that they are not over priced...

Starter box for warmachine is 50 bucks for a army you can actualy play with!! Anything added to it is an extra not a "need to play it to be legit". You get a mini rule book to. Plus the mins in the box are worth double the value! Dust is super cheap a unit of guys for 20 bucks yes please. Build a army that you can enjoy and compete with for under or a litle over a 100, yes please.

I would have added this to my post, but it bears noting that the 50 dollar boxes only come with quickstart rules. For the mini rulebook, you need to buy the 2 player starter boxes, which are 100 bucks (for about 200 dollars worth of stuff). If you wish to grow a Warmachine/Hordes community without the aid of a nearby pressganger, it might be worth it to buy and paint this up yourself.

 cincydooley wrote:

Hey welcome to the convo. I'm assuming the rest if the thread was TL;DR for you as we've circa led this drain about three times already now. Value and the phrase "overpriced" are completely subjective.

Yep. Let's revisit the sentinel and KV3

GW sentienl:

Is a model kit. So if you enjoy building kits, you'll get more enjoyment out of it.
Is priced higher.
Is smaller

FFG KV-3

Isn't a model kit, so if you want to get right to painting, there's little prep work involved
Is priced lower
Is larger

Seems like it hinges on whether or not you see pre-assembled and pre-primed as a feature or not. Since that's subjective, what about the other two? Those aren't subjective, but actual measurements you can compare. The volume of the model and the price are numbers.

As for gaming use, I think doing a 40k army with vehicles from Dust Tactics is a great idea. Others will disagree.

There are so many subjective factors, that our only points of comparison are the objective ones. And for those, FFG definitely beats GW on price.

My only concern would be spending the money to start a force (in either system), and have zero to 1 person show interest. I would hate to have a rep come down and I be the only person there, I would feel bad and buy that nice person lunch and apologize lol. I’m sure a few people would join the demo. Thanks every one! I’m going to contact my FLGS and ask for permission to do so.

SheSpits wrote:
My only concern would be spending the money to start a force (in either system), and have zero to 1 person show interest. I would hate to have a rep come down and I be the only person there, I would feel bad and buy that nice person lunch and apologize lol. I’m sure a few people would join the demo. Thanks every one! I’m going to contact my FLGS and ask for permission to do so.

Pressgangers and Henchmen and community reps know that sometimes it might just be 1 person wanting to learn the game. If they do their job, you'll want to play more and either seek out their home store (or one nearby) or start getting people involved at your store. Most of these community reps get compensated for their time so if you want stuff to happen at your store, you can let them know and they can help out, which works great for the both of you as you can get new people to play with and he gets a little credit from the company.

SheSpits wrote:
My only concern would be spending the money to start a force (in either system), and have zero to 1 person show interest. I would hate to have a rep come down and I be the only person there, I would feel bad and buy that nice person lunch and apologize lol. I’m sure a few people would join the demo. Thanks every one! I’m going to contact my FLGS and ask for permission to do so.

Also, unlike GW, PP and Wyrd reward their volunteers with product. If a PG comes and does demos at your local store, they'll basically get $8-10 an hour in free product, give or take.

I think you'll be surprised how easily WM/H catches on once someone finds out other people around them are interested. Our current local challenge is getting the people who play in their homes all the time to come out to game days and tournaments. We know they buy because the stuff flies off the shelves locally, but I'd still like to see them come out and play in more public events at local mini-conventions.

Sounds like a fun and cool gig to have on the side.

 frozenwastes wrote:

SheSpits wrote:
My only concern would be spending the money to start a force (in either system), and have zero to 1 person show interest. I would hate to have a rep come down and I be the only person there, I would feel bad and buy that nice person lunch and apologize lol. I’m sure a few people would join the demo. Thanks every one! I’m going to contact my FLGS and ask for permission to do so.

Also, unlike GW, PP and Wyrd reward their volunteers with product. If a PG comes and does demos at your local store, they'll basically get $8-10 an hour in free product, give or take.

Feth PGs get that much? I picked the wrong company to support . Henchmen get [REDACTED] an hour or so depending on what they run, and it's limited to x type of events a month like 4 hours of Demos a week, or 2 Tournaments a month, or 1 League for y weeks a month. You then request a coupon code for your work to spend in their shop online store (and it doesn't cover shipping ). You get compensated, but it's nowhere near "minimum wage" compensation, so I highly doubt the 8 to 10 dollars argument.

Edit: Feth yeah it is a cool side gig though . I've met so many people in the company by being a Henchman, other cool Henchmen, the game designers, people that helped write the game I love(d).

Pressgangers report events and get local store owners or convention operators to sign off on it. They then get PG Points which are around $1 of product each. A few times of year, the PGs submit order forms and spend their points. They do pay shipping. And it is around 8-10 points an hour depending on the type of event they are doing. Some are more, some are less.

 frozenwastes wrote:

As for Cincy's approach of demoing games, it sounds more like "seeing what sticks" rather than a decided effort to pick one and develop a community for it.

That's a bit unfair, quite frankly.

I'm very good at demoing. Despite how prickly I can come off on here, I'm very good with people. There's a reason I demo every year at GenCon and have for the past 5 years, 3 for Z-Man, 2 for FFG, and now this year demoing DZC and Infinity for Warstore (I would have demoed for either FFG or CMoN this year, but the Warstore guys, who are tight with one of my buddies, snatched me up first). But I can't MAKE anyone buy anything. No demoer can. Further, it takes a considerable amount of commitment both you as demoer and from the LGS you're demoing at to get a game to "catch." If they're not stocking product, getting a game to "catch" becomes harder. If there's no product to buy after I demo, the chances of someone buying in go down a considerable amount. I demoed Bolt Action Saturday at my LGS. Everyone had fun. There was no product in the store to buy. The chances of anyone buying in are a lot lower due to that.

Developing a community also takes a considerable amount of time, of which plenty of people don't have. With a full time job that often has me working at home, a spouse that requires attention, and a primary LGS that's 40 minutes away, it doesn't leave a lot of time to develop anything. If you have the time to do that, that's absolutely fantastic. I simply don't. For example, I'd LOVE to run a Descent campaign. I can't commit to an every Saturday/Sunday thing, much as I'd like to. Further, I'm not going to push people toward what they spend their money on, nor am I going to tell them that what they like is overpriced. That attitude encompasses everything I hate about the Pressganger program, where one of their primary selling points seems to be that they're "not-GW." Thats actually a big reason I don't do any of the leagues at the store that has a dedicated Warmahordes group. I like Warmahordes quite a bit. I own pretty much every model for two armies that overflow my two BF bags. But, for the most part, I only play it with one or two friends that aren't overcompetitive asshats. This hobby, for me, is best served with a cold drink and friends in a relaxed setting. But then again, I've never got the "competetive hobbies" thing; for me, that has always been athletics.

TL;DR Summary: For me hobbies should be relaxing. I demo stuff because I think it's cool. If other people don't want to buy in, no sweat off my brow. I don't have the time to browbeat them into spending their money on something they don't want to.

 cincydooley wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:

As for Cincy's approach of demoing games, it sounds more like "seeing what sticks" rather than a decided effort to pick one and develop a community for it.

That's a bit unfair, quite frankly.

I'm very good at demoing. Despite how prickly I can come off on here, I'm very good with people. There's a reason I demo every year at GenCon and have for the past 5 years, 3 for Z-Man, 2 for FFG, and now this year demoing DZC and Infinity for Warstore (I would have demoed for either FFG or CMoN this year, but the Warstore guys, who are tight with one of my buddies, snatched me up first).

This is what I'm talking about. Look at how many different things you're demoing.

I demoed Bolt Action Saturday at my LGS. Everyone had fun. There was no product in the store to buy. The chances of anyone buying in are a lot lower due to that.

And yet another game!

See what I mean?

Imagine if you picked a game you really liked and spent all that time locally demoing, networking, exchanging contact information, setting up events, etc.,.

If someone is interested in a particular game as a supplement to their 40k hobby (or because 40k is no longer working for them), I'd highly recommend picking one and running with it. Demoing 5+ different games all over the place isn't going to help a community develop for any one of them.