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This topic came up during a league discussion and opened a can of worms. So, I am putting it up here in YMDC with hopes to get some feedback.

The secondary objective for First Blood is earned when the first unit is destroyed. Although the ADL itself is not a unit, any weapon taken for it does have a profile - and as such can be targeted / destroyed ... is this enough to warrant First Blood when the weapon is eliminated ?

This is a strange matter, as based on ruling its possible for something to earn First Blood (quad gun destroys a unit) but yet not count for First Blood (quad gun is destroyed)...

In the auto-win victory condition for not having models on the table at the end of a game turn, would the ADL trump this provided it had a gun emplacement ? Similar, can it be counted towards the 50% reserve allowance ?

Weapon Empalcements (as well as buildings) do not have a Unit Type. As such they are not models. Since they are not models, they are not units.

Yup, both questions have the same answer. The Gun Emplacement is terrain, not a unit.

So it doesn't count for First Blood, and it doesn't count for determining if you have units left on the table.

If it's not a model/unit, it cannot be attacked, or, more specifically for this discussion, it cannot be removed as a casualty (pg 15 or pg 25). If it's counting as a model/unit while removing casualties, then First Blood is scored at that moment, while it is being treated as a model/unit.

A Gun Emplacement is Terrain that you are given permission to attack (pg 105). It is never a Unit, so does not fulfil the necessary criteria for First Blood (pg 122).

Arguing that a gun emplacement can be destroyed but not count for First Blood requires that you hold that it both does and does not count as a model/unit for two answers to the exact same question asked at the exact same time.

Did you remove a model as a casualty? If no, then "permission to attack" is meaningless and the attack fails. If yes, it counts for First Blood.

Put another way, the permission to attack the terrain is just as much permission to count for First Blood as it is permission to target, hit, wound, and remove it as a casualty.

 toxic_wisdom wrote:

This is a strange matter, as based on ruling its possible for something to earn First Blood (quad gun destroys a unit) but yet not count for First Blood (quad gun is destroyed)...

You do realize that the Quad Gun cannot fire on its own - it must be manned.
Meaning its not getting First Blood, the unit manning it is.

rigeld2 wrote:

 toxic_wisdom wrote:

This is a strange matter, as based on ruling its possible for something to earn First Blood (quad gun destroys a unit) but yet not count for First Blood (quad gun is destroyed)...

You do realize that the Quad Gun cannot fire on its own - it must be manned.
Meaning its not getting First Blood, the unit manning it is.

What what if my new pair of buildings that come with punishers cannons which only fire on it's own whack the first enemy unit?
Do I get 1st blood then?

-Matt

about the end of game question:
FAQ says:
Q: In the Victory Conditions section, it states that if, at the end of
any game turn, a player has no models on the battlefield, his
opponent automatically wins. Are Fortifications purchased as part of
your army counted toward this?(p122)
A: No.

If your going to say the gun it self counts as first blood then why don't you have to kill the rest of the terrain it comes with ----> the aegis line itself? So if buy a land raider and buy the multi melta upgrade the weapon destroyed result on the melta counts as 1st blood?

Like they said it is terrain and requires a unit or model to fire it. I am sure it doesn't count as 1st blood. What if the enemy takes over the gun and you have to kill your own gun. You just got 1st blood for killing the gun or did the other team since you paid for it? Either side can fire it after all.



Yes Matt you would get 1st blood. You get 1st blood if they perils and kill themselves on a psychic test.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 toxic_wisdom wrote:

This is a strange matter, as based on ruling its possible for something to earn First Blood (quad gun destroys a unit) but yet not count for First Blood (quad gun is destroyed)...

You do realize that the Quad Gun cannot fire on its own - it must be manned.
Meaning its not getting First Blood, the unit manning it is.

What what if my new pair of buildings that come with punishers cannons which only fire on it's own whack the first enemy unit?
Do I get 1st blood then?

-Matt

The Vengeance Weapon Battery is clearly broken, I don't think that can be said enough, but I will try and focus on just the victory point issue as we don't have all day to discuss every issue this fortification brings with it.

From a pure rule as written interpretation there is no grounds for you to claim a victory point for 'destroying' it. Buildings do not meet the requirements to be considered a model, let alone a unit, which is a requirement before a victory point can be rewarded. Without a special rule stating the Vengeance Battery counts for a victory point, there is nothing giving a player permission to reward themselves with a point for "destroying" it. Should you want to change this fact for the Vengeance Weapon Battery you will need to discuss with your opponent when these victory points are to be rewarded, and I suggest talking to your opponent anyway as the battery is 'rules as intended' territory to begin with.

Readers might wonder why I have put destroyed in quotation marks and I would also like to bring something else to everyones attention:

You can never destroy buildings. Page 92, second paragraph on the left, last bold section highlights the fact they do not have hull points and can never be destroyed. If you then review the building damage table, and I will ignore another problem with this table when being applied to the weapon battery for now, you will see something interesting on all the entries we would consider to be 'building destroying.' The worse case situation for a building, such as detonation, simply turns it into an 'impassable building' without removing the building section from play. This is even more telling when comparing it to the Vengeance Weapon Battery, as it is already an impassable building so this part of the damage results is completely irrelevant.

It does destroy the emplaced guns as well, so the battery will no longer be able to fire, but the battery itself is never destroyed!

(stolen from jinkdragon)

Pyrian wrote:Arguing that a gun emplacement can be destroyed but not count for First Blood requires that you hold that it both does and does not count as a model/unit for two answers to the exact same question asked at the exact same time.

No it doesn't, because it never counts as a unit. It is a piece of terrain that the rules allow you to attack.

 insaniak wrote:

Pyrian wrote:Arguing that a gun emplacement can be destroyed but not count for First Blood requires that you hold that it both does and does not count as a model/unit for two answers to the exact same question asked at the exact same time.

No it doesn't, because it never counts as a unit. It is a piece of terrain that the rules allow you to attack.

Just curious, what happens to the piece of terrain when it's reduced to 0 wounds?

I assume nothing?

sirlynchmob wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Pyrian wrote:Arguing that a gun emplacement can be destroyed but not count for First Blood requires that you hold that it both does and does not count as a model/unit for two answers to the exact same question asked at the exact same time.

No it doesn't, because it never counts as a unit. It is a piece of terrain that the rules allow you to attack.

Just curious, what happens to the piece of terrain when it's reduced to 0 wounds?

Presumably we follow the casualty removal rules on Page 15 and remove the Gun Emplacement when it is reduced to 0 wounds.

 DeathReaper wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Pyrian wrote:Arguing that a gun emplacement can be destroyed but not count for First Blood requires that you hold that it both does and does not count as a model/unit for two answers to the exact same question asked at the exact same time.

No it doesn't, because it never counts as a unit. It is a piece of terrain that the rules allow you to attack.

Just curious, what happens to the piece of terrain when it's reduced to 0 wounds?

Presumably we follow the casualty removal rules on Page 15 and remove the Gun Emplacement when it is reduced to 0 wounds.

so the model is removed as a casualty when it reaches 0 wounds? is it terrain or a model? is that RAW or HYWPI?
Is there any allowance to remove terrain from the battlefield during the game?

see, it's easier just to acknowledge they are models.

Well we are told we can shoot the terrain feature, even though it is terrain, so we follow the entire shooting process which includes removing the target when it reaches 0 wounds. This is RAW.

the allowance to shoot the terrain is also the allowance to remove the terrain from the battlefield when it reaches 0 wounds.

But it is still not a model as defined by the 40k Rules. It is Terrain (Battlefield Debris in particular).

HawaiiMatt wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 toxic_wisdom wrote:

This is a strange matter, as based on ruling its possible for something to earn First Blood (quad gun destroys a unit) but yet not count for First Blood (quad gun is destroyed)...

You do realize that the Quad Gun cannot fire on its own - it must be manned.
Meaning its not getting First Blood, the unit manning it is.

What what if my new pair of buildings that come with punishers cannons which only fire on it's own whack the first enemy unit?
Do I get 1st blood then?

-Matt

You do indeed. The conditions for first blood don't concern themselves with how a unit is removed, merely that it is. If a unit managed to somehow Gets Hot itself to death in the first turn, they would still grant First Blood to the opposing player.