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Back in the day I always played tournament magic. I picked it up around the same time I started 40k. Anyway my favorite part of the game was trying to find the most advanced strategies to compete at the highest levels with my opponents. I tend to feel the same way about 40k. Now I am nowhere near naive enough to believe that there is such a thing as an unbeatable list and dont want there to be.

However I do wish that I could play and tune those hyper competitive lists on the net. Farsight bombs, wraithwing, you name it I wanna play it if I think I can beat the snot out of my opponent.

My problem is a. I don't want to get people pissed at me when I bring my power list out, and b. I dislike the fact that when someone else inevitably brings a power list I feel like ive gimped myself because I'm worried about what others think of my list.

Does anyone feel like they can reconcile these issues or am I doomed to simply hold back when really I just want to unleash?

Have you tried talking to people?

I hear that does wonders for a game involving another person.

 Blacksails wrote:
Have you tried talking to people?

I hear that does wonders for a game involving another person.

I imagine it does almost as much good as incredibly generic advice given in a snarky and sarcastic manner!

Obviously I'm not talking about simply setting up shop and yelling "come at me bro!" to the gaming store in general. I am more reffering to constructing an army in the first place. I dont have a ton of cash to dedicate to the hobby so I might be able to build two lists but if everyone refuses to play one it would be quite the waste of time and money.

Talk to people. Seriously.

Go to where the playing happens and ask them. You'd be amazed at how well it works. Simply ask things like "hey, I want to get into the hobby, and I've been doing my research at the real high-power lists. Is that something that you guys would play against? If not, how should I make an army to fit in well here?"

[MOD EDIT - Rule #1 and Language. Alpharius]

Sorry, do you actually believe that I have never tried talking to people? It was clear that, even if the advice wasn't generic (and I will contend that it doesn't get much more generic than "talk to people") Blacksails was being quite snarky, I imagine because he doesn't enjoy the type of gaming I describe. I will similarly contend that in outright calling me an Edited for language -Mannahnin you are painting yourself as far more of an arse than I was.

In any case I am not trying to say that in one-off situations it doesn't make sense to discuss taming lists to match an opponent. I am talking about trying new, powerful lists in general. Should I really have to poll everyone in my FLGS before putting together a list? It just doesn't sound reasonable or fun.

Finally, I should add that I dont want to be unsportsmanlike, so maybe WAAC is the wrong term to use. I just want to try more potent lists without feeling limited.

So, it's actually fairly easy to merge a killer instinct with civility in 40k. It's called a handicap.

Because think about it for a moment. If you have the strongest possible list, just how good of a player do you have to be to win with it? Not very. Bad players can still win games with good lists. On the other hand, how skilled does a player have to be to win with a list that's complete garbage? Pretty good, I'd think.

I mean, if you had a game of 40k, and it ended in a draw, and one player brought tau riptide and markerlight spam, and the other player wheeled out an ork slugga green tide, which person is the better player? The ork player, of course. Given equal skill, the tau list should beat the green tide 10 out of 10 times.

And the best part is that you're not capped to the skill level of your opponents either. You can always handicap yourself by more than the relative skill difference between the two of you. Your opponents are only ever going to be so good, while there's no end to the crappiness of a list you can create.

So, with a small shift in attitude, you can have your cake and eat it too. Instead of playing the game as well as you can on easy mode (with a strong list), play the game as well as you can on hard mode (with a weak one). That way you get to play your best, and ratchet up the difficulty to whatever level you want so that you still feel like you're getting challenged, and you also don't just curb stomp worse players and make them all hate you.

Everybody wins.

Admitting it is the first part. Now dealing with it is the hard part. Instead of stalking the fresh meat of weak players, try making a fun list. Try finding someone who is better than you and losing gracefully.

Or just try to get a grip that this is a game.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Admitting it is the first part. Now dealing with it is the hard part. Instead of stalking the fresh meat of weak players, try making a fun list. Try finding someone who is better than you and losing gracefully.

Or just try to get a grip that this is a game.

Man, I think I went in over my head with the WAAC terminology. I dont have any issues losing and I dont set out to attack weak players. I just want to tinker with hyper-competitive lists without alienating players. Let me just throw in that I do not currently run such a list.

WAAC is an attitude, not a playstyle.

you can be hyper competitive and not be a WAAC player.

As long as you are a cordial opponent it doesn't matter what horrible things you do to your opponent's unoptimized army list. Only a sore loser would harp on you bringing your A game. I would personally find it slightly offensive if my opponent didn't bring his A game. It says the game really isn't worth their time and effort to try and win.


Now if someone is a newer player, you can restrain yourself. But be careful not to do it too much. If there isn't a challenge there isn't an incentive for the other player to improve. its why when I play new players I still ensure I have a list that will beat them, but one that will teach them through the loss how to become better and not just give them the illusion of victory. And then every now and then you can pull off the gloves and do what could truly be called seal clubbing.

In turn, when I play someone of better caliber than myself I never ask for punches to be pulled. Defeat teaches more than victory, and I want to learn.


If someone calls you a WAAC player and you truly haven't been a jerk, that person is probably just a sore loser who doesn't want to change their style so they can beat you. And frankly someone like that isn't worth your time to play against.

Losing a closely fought battle is almost as fun as winning it.

[qute=Ailaros 542172 5883712 fe521ef049cf08dfe48f5a43cc4f107d.jpg]So, it's actually fairly easy to merge a killer instinct with civility in 40k. It's called a handicap.

Because think about it for a moment. If you have the strongest possible list, just how good of a player do you have to be to win with it? Not very. Bad players can still win games with good lists. On the other hand, how skilled does a player have to be to win with a list that's complete garbage? Pretty good, I'd think.

I mean, if you had a game of 40k, and it ended in a draw, and one player brought tau riptide and markerlight spam, and the other player wheeled out an ork slugga green tide, which person is the better player? The ork player, of course. Given equal skill, the tau list should beat the green tide 10 out of 10 times.

And the best part is that you're not capped to the skill level of your opponents either. You can always handicap yourself by more than the relative skill difference between the two of you. Your opponents are only ever going to be so good, while there's no end to the crappiness of a list you can create.

So, with a small shift in attitude, you can have your cake and eat it too. Instead of playing the game as well as you can on easy mode (with a strong list), play the ame as well as you can on hard mode (with a weak one). That way you get to play your best, and ratchet up the difficulty to whatever level you want so that you still feel like you're getting challenged, and you also don't just curb stomp worse players and make them all hate you.

Everybody wins.

If you bring a hyper-competitive list, you should play it against other hyper-competitive lists. There's nothing special about beating the snot out of a non-competitive list with a competitive one, and your tinkering won't really be effective if you're testing it against things not seen in a competitive atmosphere.

themadlbb wrote:
Back in the day I always played tournament magic. I picked it up around the same time I started 40k. Anyway my favorite part of the game was trying to find the most advanced strategies to compete at the highest levels with my opponents. I tend to feel the same way about 40k. Now I am nowhere near naive enough to believe that there is such a thing as an unbeatable list and dont want there to be.

However I do wish that I could play and tune those hyper competitive lists on the net. Farsight bombs, wraithwing, you name it I wanna play it if I think I can beat the snot out of my opponent.

My problem is a. I don't want to get people pissed at me when I bring my power list out, and b. I dislike the fact that when someone else inevitably brings a power list I feel like ive gimped myself because I'm worried about what others think of my list.

Does anyone feel like they can reconcile these issues or am I doomed to simply hold back when really I just want to unleash?

The first step is admitting you have a problem.

But don't worry. There is help available. You can recover.

 Ailaros wrote:
Given equal skill, the tau list should beat the green tide 10 out of 10 times.

So how does this fit with your previous statements that 40k is just a dice game and the dice are the most important thing? If that belief is true then the Tau list should only win maybe 6/10, not 10/10.

Everyone needs to take a step back from the keyboard, and enhance their calm.

Further rudeness will have unpleasant effects on your continued ability to post.

Theres a difference between a WAAC and being highly competitive. WAAC doesnt mean you bring the best possible list and enforce the most awesome tactics, thats just good play. WAAC means you pull shady shenanigans or play whack-a-mole with the holes in rules to favor your army.
Yes, some tacitcs are hazy and seriously need FAQ'ing (such as the large and growing larger thread about infiltrate forcing the unit to actually infiltrate rather than enter reserves or deploy normally, which affects HQ attachments). Those are also commonly known and usually need pre-game chitchat if its going to happen this way or that.

Rather than give a long example i'll just say it this way: If you arent rule-sharking every single detail that helps YOU, you are not a WAAC. If you do this for both sides, people (i know myself and my friends think this way) tend to ignore it because youre just being fair.

EDIT: However, there is something about bringing the proper army for a situation. If its just a friendly game and you are not practicing tourny lists, leave the gung-ho ultimate list at home and bring something a little more fun or random so the game is more relaxing for both players. You also find other tactics this way that you didnt expect to work.

Tip: Don't do a farsight bomb if you want to be "hyper-competitive". It's an amusing pen & paper list that pretends enemies can't shoot back

One way to gauge if you are truly WAAC is to see how mad you get when you lose - a little annoyed? You are not WAAC.

Alright, to elaborate my point because you didn't seem to like it very much.

You have two problems; the first being that you're afraid of looking like a horrible person, and the second being that you're afraid of losing against an optimized list.

Both of these problems are easily solved by simply talking to your opponent ahead of time, or talking/getting to know the gaming group and your store or club.

Let's say you're pre-arranging a match at the end of the day mid-week with a buddy to play on Saturday. During the conversation, its incredibly simple to ask this, "Hey, I was thinking of bringing an optimized tourney list for a change of pace. You good with a game of more competitive lists?" He'll either respond with a simple yes or no. From there, you hammer out what kind of game you'd like to play; whether it be the beerhammer special or the NOVA work up training.

There's nothing more to it. Assuming of course you're a reasonable, hygienic human being people would want to associate with, you should have zero problems communicating beforehand so that everyone wins. You may not get every game as top tier play as you may wish, but everything social is some form of a compromise. And really, you're still playing warhammer anyways.

For the record, I do enjoy playing competitively/bringing top lists to games. I also love beerhammer and throwing down fluffy/unoptimized lists.

So really, in short, talk to people. It actually solves 100% of your problems in this case. There's nothing more or less you have to do. I mean it, nothing.

I had the same issue, I have always been competitive when it comes to my hobbies. Heck, I'm even competitive when it comes to video games( I don't play games were I can't do online pvp)

I have a lot of friends that 40k and we tend to play in my basement, so I don't run into the issue as much. There is, however, a really big league nearby(40ish players) that I simply can't play in because they don't allow "power gaming". Most of the armies are unpainted, half the players barely understand 6th ed but they all do it for fun. I don't own models that do not form a competitive list, everything I have bought for both my necrons and Nids has been for competitive play. I went to the game shop and talked to the guys a bit.. brought my lists and showed them before ever coming to play.. it was quickly revealed that they wouldn't allow most of what I wanted to bring to play.. so I just chilled and chatted for a bit watched a few games then moved on.

While a bit further to drive to, there is another FLGS in my area that is all hardcore... there is no kids table here. These guys all go to tourneys and most of the games played are to work on those lists. When I want a pickup game, this is where I go.. because I know I won't find anything but optimized lists and new armies.

Find a competitive meta to play in and be sure to inform any new opponents that you're a competitive player before you play. The first ensures that you will be able to build and test against the best lists possible so both you and your opponent will get what you want out of a game, and the second ensures that your opponent will know what he's getting into before the game begins because no one has any fun just getting stomped out and, if you really are a competitive player, you won't have any fun sandbagging some guy's fluffy fun list.

I'm like you: I'm very competitive and I want to play with and against the most competitive lists, so I know what a hassle it can be to find that in 40k (honestly, no other game I've ever played has such a wide-spread anti-competitive mindset... like, no one talks about TFG at a Magic or Warmachine tournament, but I have heard players accused of bringing "cheesy" lists to a 40k tournament like it was a bad thing).

You may think Blacksail's advice: "talk to people" was snarky (and yeah, it struck me that way too - it's not just you), but that's exactly what you need to do in order to find players with the same mindset as you and to avoid people thinking you're an donkey-cave (donkey cave? Let's go with butt hole ) because you stomped their all Eldar Ranger army that they've been building and painting since 2nd edition with your completely optimized and super-powered net list that is statistically impossible to beat.

Simply saying "I'm looking to practice for some tournaments, is there anyone who plays competitively around here?" to a group at the LGS will most likely get you playing kind of people and lists you're looking to play.

 redthirst wrote:

You may think Blacksail's advice: "talk to people" was snarky (and yeah, it struck me that way too - it's not just you)

I feel the need to clarify this before it goes any further.

I was being snarky.

That is all.

 Blacksails wrote:

 redthirst wrote:

You may think Blacksail's advice: "talk to people" was snarky (and yeah, it struck me that way too - it's not just you)

I feel the need to clarify this before it goes any further.

I was being snarky.

That is all.

Then you expressed yourself beautifully.

when im planning on taking a tounry list to a FLGS for play with general people I tend to try to announce it ahead of time. My FLGS have messages boards either within the story or online. I've found that it helps to just throw out a general announcement / challenge. Just something like "Hey Guys I'm planning on bringing what I think is a pretty competitive tounry list, was wondering if anyone wants to help me fine tune it." Doing it that way often helps me find the other people at the FLGS that are also familiar with an optimized list and helps me avoid curb stomping someone that is completely caught off guard. I also find that I also generally get some random non competitive players that are also just intrigued and want to get a taste of an optimized list

Part of the problem for Madibb, is, he is already set in his ways. By that I mean, he is not listening, or should I say reading, what other people are saying. He turns it around by telling us we don't understand what he is trying to say or mean.

Alot of good points were made. If you do not agree with them, then explain why you don't in like a good debate instead or arguing about it. All you are doing is making yourself look TFG.

Nothing wrong in wanting to make the best optimized list. I believe you need to go to the tournament scene then.

Also I believe from reading what you said, all you want to do is play with optimized lists. In other words, what is THE EASIEST FOR YOU TO PLAY/WIN WITH. Someone mentioned about a handi cap. So why not make an optimized list with a handicap, say 1850 point while your opponent has 2000?

Also you don't want to be a WAAC person? Just set back, count to 30 as was said and realize now you are playing with plastic toy soldiers. Now think, why are you getting into 40K? To make the best optimized list with plastic toy soldiers?

How about fun? How about playing for fluff? Are those options as well, or you just want the best optimized list? Why does it have to be the best optimized list? As I said earlier, is this so you can have an easier game, or is it to show you are a better General?

Better Generals win games, by not optimized lists but better tactics. So why not on making lists for better tactics against a better army?


TL;DR

All I read from your comments now is I need to make an easier army to win with. Why because you don't listen/read to what people are saying and taking their advice in.

 redthirst wrote:

I'm like you: I'm very competitive and I want to play with and against the most competitive lists, so I know what a hassle it can be to find that in 40k (honestly, no other game I've ever played has such a wide-spread anti-competitive mindset... like, no one talks about TFG at a Magic or Warmachine tournament, but I have heard players accused of bringing "cheesy" lists to a 40k tournament like it was a bad thing).

This should really be an epiphany of sorts. Magic and Warmachine are designed from the ground up for competitive tournament play. 40k isn't a competitive game. It's like saying "I want to be competitive at yahtzee", or beach cricket, or role-playing, etc etc. Most people who have indulged in one or more of those sorts of past times would look at someone saying that and their internal monologues would be telling them that that person "just doesn't quite get it". That's the WAAC or hyper competitive 40k player.

When did the trend of WAAC players start getting upset about being called WAAC players and insist on being called 'hyper-competitive' or whatever on Dakka start anyway? Something I've noticed since coming back for the new Eldar. WAAC does not mean 'cheater' or bad sportsman, cheater and bad sportsman mean those things. Win-at-all-costs armies have always been a thing, it's what gets put on the table by players who don't consider the enjoyment of their non-WAAC opponents in a hobby that's designed more about 'forging the narrative' than who won the game at the end of it.

I'm a competitive person. I love studying metas, I love working on strategies within game systems, like the OP. My advice to a kindred spirit would be to embrace a system that rewards that, and where everyone is swimming in the same direction. Chess, Poker, Warmachine, League of Legends, Magic the Gathering. I like 40k for building, painting, and pushing around the pretty models making stories in the dystopian sci fi universe, I like Chess and Warmachine for the actual brain workout. It's still fun discussing what-ifs on the dakka 40k forums, but it's such a snooze=fest actually trying to play it out on the table.

WAAC and hard lists are the opposite of competitive.

If you want to compete, you wouldn't rely on the crutches offered by the imbalances of the 40k metagame. Inversely, if you're drawn to "killer lists", you're probably not a competitive person, but instead somebody afraid of a good challenge and more the "afraid to lose" guy.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
40k isn't a competitive game. It's like saying "I want to be competitive at yahtzee", or beach cricket, or role-playing, etc etc.

Except, afaik, you can't play in a dozen or so yahtzee, beach cricket, or rpg tournaments every year for money/prizes.

Despite whether 40k was intended to be a competitive game or not, the fact is that there is a such thing as competitive 40k.

Davor wrote:
Part of the problem for Madibb, is, he is already set in his ways. By that I mean, he is not listening, or should I say reading, what other people are saying. He turns it around by telling us we don't understand what he is trying to say or mean.

Alot of good points were made. If you do not agree with them, then explain why you don't in like a good debate instead or arguing about it. All you are doing is making yourself look TFG.

Nothing wrong in wanting to make the best optimized list. I believe you need to go to the tournament scene then.

Also I believe from reading what you said, all you want to do is play with optimized lists. In other words, what is THE EASIEST FOR YOU TO PLAY/WIN WITH. Someone mentioned about a handi cap. So why not make an optimized list with a handicap, say 1850 point while your opponent has 2000?

Also you don't want to be a WAAC person? Just set back, count to 30 as was said and realize now you are playing with plastic toy soldiers. Now think, why are you getting into 40K? To make the best optimized list with plastic toy soldiers?

How about fun? How about playing for fluff? Are those options as well, or you just want the best optimized list? Why does it have to be the best optimized list? As I said earlier, is this so you can have an easier game, or is it to show you are a better General?

Better Generals win games, by not optimized lists but better tactics. So why not on making lists for better tactics against a better army?


TL;DR

All I read from your comments now is I need to make an easier army to win with. Why because you don't listen/read to what people are saying and taking their advice in.

Actually I don't think my problem is that I'm set in my ways. Also, I have been listening to everything that has been said here, and do appreciate what people are saying. If you read what I've written, I made note that on a one to one basis I totally agree that discussing lists and what you're going to bring is beneficial. I have no desire to bring optimized scythe spam against a dude who just bought a space marine battle force. Not fun for me, not fun for him.

I also fully understand that there is a large contingent of people who wish to play the game as a tabletop RPG of sorts. To be honest, I can get behind that idea as well. Also beerhammer. Also casual, one sided games. Heck, I've spent many a Saturday with a buddy just playing a random scenario without even really worrying about points.

However, that to me is the great thing about this game. Because there is a formal rules structure in place, there is also the opportunity to try and optimize within that rules system. The very customizability is what makes the game fun. And, because I enjoy researching and optimizing, I enjoy trying to push the constraints of that system when I discover a list that I think is really good vs. a list that is simply so-so but purely fluffy. You can see this in many other sports and competitive games. Golfers who are at the top of their game don't generally use sub-par clubs to make the game more of a challenge. Rather, they expect that a contingent of competitors will similarly like to optimize to the utmost within the confines of the game, such that at the very highest levels it is skill rather than the occasional "broken" list that makes the difference.

That's why I brought up the tournament Magic scene. People definitely complained about cards, but there was always a desire to rise to meet the challenge. I love 40k, but I have noticed that there is a large group of players who would rather the more powerful lists scale down to the weak, rather than vice versa. This makes sense somewhat, because as opposed to Magic most 40k players have put a lot of money, energy and time into their models before they even hit the tabletop. It is very demoralizing, then, when they get swept away by Timmy the power-gamer.

So, let me just state that I do not want to play the game on easy mode. Rather, I think it would be fun to be able to tool up with an incredibly potent list and compete against players who do not mind the challenge, rather than there being what amounts to a social stigma for bringing lists that are inspired by power-lists from the net, to tinker with and optimize further to your local meta etc.

Also, I should note that I do enjoy the fluffy aspects of this game a LOT. It's why I enjoy it more than, say, chess or poker. So, I don't want to make lists that make no sense from the context of the game's back story (for instance I would not want to team up my precious Deathwing with Necron scum. However, I doubt the crons would have any issue wrecking face with scythe spam or overwhelming numbers of wraiths).

So, understand that I too enjoy multiple aspects of the game. However, unless we are specifically playing a fluffy mission or something like beerhammer, then by god my main goal is to try to smash your plastic dudesmen with mine, and I want to bring the list that I think is going to do it best!

And, BTW, I want my competitors to do the same.

TL;DR I think Davor is wrong because I do enjoy multiple aspects of the hobby but would like to build powerful lists without people getting butt-hurt or bringing my character into question.

Bad players be it because of being new , with bad armies or because of being "fluff" players will dislike you no matter what you do . The people who play tournaments will be weary of you , because no one wants others to teach someone to learn their play style or builds . They can do it if they are your friends , but total strangers will have little interest in that . This is when vassal comes in . You can playtest against anyone anywhere in the world , no one will have problems with what you pick , because everyone else will be testing lists too . You don't lose money by buying stuff you may not like or which is bad . Then when you have the army you want , you can buy it and play it tournaments .

Where I play, we actually have 'friendly games' and 'test list' games. We discuss and decide what we are doing prior to even picking a table. Most the people in my Area are slightly competitive and we have a few tournament players that do fairly well. When big tournaments are coming, everyone knows that its a 'serious' game and don't bring fluff, because we all are tweaking our list to make it perfect.

Once the tourney passes we all go back to just effing around and playing the weirdest craziest lists possible.

Have you seen 30 Jump Pack Death Company with double hammers charging down the field before?

But really, we all discuss the nature of the game prior to setting up, since we all have 'fun lists' and 'WAAC' optimized lists.