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Lately I've found myself running into a bit of struggle against a buddy of mine who has taken to playing Menoth with a heavy focus on 'jacks that use AOEs, absurd amounts of fire continuous effects, and a post-ranged attack barrage pummeling by the Avatar of Menoth and two crusaders, all of which are fueled by the Harbinger's deep pool of focus. I'm playing Cygnar again as of late, and I find that I keep coming up short on mounting effective attacks against this strategy. Does anyone have any suggestions that I might try against the aforementioned Menoth strategy?

Look at an Avenger with snipe and Holt and Aiyana. Knock down the Jack in front of Harbinger and then let her have it with your defender(s) and/or hunter(s).

Go with what Leo said, and keep in mind you have to take out his jack support (for Menoth, that would be the infamous choir and Vassals). Without those, Menoth Jacks tend not to be as so fearsome and meh at best. I say this because I play Menoth. Also, since the opponent is going to smart and try to keep those support pieces, he is going to put his Choir and Vassals behind jacks, so try to get something from Mercs or anything from Cygnar that can ignore LOS like Phantom Seeker or aoe them since choir and Vassals really tend to die with a swift breeze of a stray aoe shot.

I'm not a Cygnar player so take what I say with a huge helping of salt.

Chain lightning, lots and lots of chain lighting maybe?

or the standard recipe of Stormwall + eHaley + whatever else you happen to have laying around....

1. remember this isn't 40k, you can spread your infantry units WAAAAY out,
2. running infantry or whatever into those shooting jacks will help prevent them from shooting or at least make him spend resources removing those models that isn't going towards shooting
3. same with choir, if he's singing for no non magical shooting he isn't singing for extra hit/damage, menoth guns aren't the greatest with the choir always being used defensively
4. ehaley has all the tools you could want and more, she can copy harbys crusaders call, has a bonded jack that can move a million inches, deceleration to help stop all that shooting, telekenesis, AND domination

 Grundz wrote:
1. remember this isn't 40k, you can spread your infantry units WAAAAY out,
2. running infantry or whatever into those shooting jacks will help prevent them from shooting or at least make him spend resources removing those models that isn't going towards shooting
3. same with choir, if he's singing for no non magical shooting he isn't singing for extra hit/damage, menoth guns aren't the greatest with the choir always being used defensively
4. ehaley has all the tools you could want and more, she can copy harbys crusaders call, has a bonded jack that can move a million inches, deceleration to help stop all that shooting, telekenesis, AND domination

eHaley cannot copy crusaders call. Read the cards.

How many points are you playing that there are enough ranged aoe jacks (Vanquishers) and the avatar and 2 crusaders?

I'd spend 3 points on some storm callers. A skill check and the jacks are disrupted and can't get focus and the choir can never stop it as its not a range attack or a spell. Doesn't work on the Avatar though.

But you can't just throw them forward to disrupt. You also need to advance other threats. You want to disrupt them when it matters the most, not early on just because.

Also, what scenarios are you playing?

At 50 points you could do it, you can get 2 Crusaders, Avatar, 2 Vanquishers, max choir, 2 vassals, wracks, and enough points for either a full Zealot or TFG unit with UA.

Heck that actually sounds like a decent list.

 Grey Templar wrote:
At 50 points you could do it, you can get 2 Crusaders, Avatar, 2 Vanquishers, max choir, 2 vassals, wracks, and enough points for either a full Zealot or TFG unit with UA.

Heck that actually sounds like a decent list.

That's actually a quite similar list to the 50 pt. list he's playing (although a few things are shifted about to accommodate the paladins that he tends to run). We've been using SR 2013 scenarios (randomly determined) and even an occasional caster kill game, and so far I've only been able to pull out two wins no matter what I try.

Is he running it as a Tier list?

If so, it can't be tier4 unless he has 3 jacks with no ranged weapons in the harbinger's battlegroup, the Avatar does NOT count. And tier4 is a good beneft, all melee only jacks(avatar included) are 1 point cheaper.

Her Tier list is known for spamming 5 point Crusaders and 3+ paladins, that give Harby some walls to hide behind.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Is he running it as a Tier list?

If so, it can't be tier4 unless he has 3 jacks with no ranged weapons in the harbinger's battlegroup. And tier4 is a good beneft, all melee only jacks(avatar included) are 1 point cheaper.

Her Tier list is known for spamming 5 point Crusaders and 3+ paladins, that give Harby some walls to hide behind.

note the avatar doesn't belong to a battlegroup

Yup, should have added that.

Its a pretty solid list and way to play, as by the time you reach him he can afford to trade you jack for jack, can you list what you own? (or does your group allow standins?)

For that kind of list I don't think I'd play her in tier, losing out on Vassals, and Wracks is a bit of steep tax to save 4 points (1 from each Crusader, 1 from the Avatar).

He's not running it as a tier. In regard to stand-ins, my group does allow stand-ins.

I think part of my problem may be that I'm running primarily light 'jacks, which may be causing me to have trouble actually doing enough damage to matter. I'm considering investing in a Defender and perhaps a Hunter or two (a light, I know, but it at least has some armor cracking potential) to address my ability to ding up his models, but aside from that I'm unsure how to proceed.

 grayshadow87 wrote:
He's not running it as a tier. In regard to stand-ins, my group does allow stand-ins.

I think part of my problem may be that I'm running primarily light 'jacks, which may be causing me to have trouble actually doing enough damage to matter. I'm considering investing in a Defender and perhaps a Hunter or two (a light, I know, but it at least has some armor cracking potential) to address my ability to ding up his models, but aside from that I'm unsure how to proceed.

It's a rough list. Because if you try to outshoot it he just sings Passage, and even with Aiyanna it doesn't seem like you can pass out enough magic to one round a jack. I think I'd try Stryker2 against it, working toward getting the speed to engage early. You may lose some going in, but that kind of army generally has some punch left even after taking some casualties.

Welcome to fighting Menoth. Where we go out of our way to mess up your game plan. Menoth: the faction of "No!"

 Grey Templar wrote:
Welcome to fighting Menoth. Where we go out of our way to mess up your game plan. Menoth: the faction of "No!"

*Sings Passage on Warjacks as it goes into the next players turn*

Menoth player: C'mon, let me hear you say it just once.

Opponent: I am going to activate my shooting unit and move up.

Menoth Player. No! *laughs a bit* Not that the other thing.

Opponent: Then I am going to take a shot at you Recko--

Menoth Player: WROOONG!!

 derek wrote:

 grayshadow87 wrote:
He's not running it as a tier. In regard to stand-ins, my group does allow stand-ins.

I think part of my problem may be that I'm running primarily light 'jacks, which may be causing me to have trouble actually doing enough damage to matter. I'm considering investing in a Defender and perhaps a Hunter or two (a light, I know, but it at least has some armor cracking potential) to address my ability to ding up his models, but aside from that I'm unsure how to proceed.

It's a rough list. Because if you try to outshoot it he just sings Passage, and even with Aiyanna it doesn't seem like you can pass out enough magic to one round a jack. I think I'd try Stryker2 against it, working toward getting the speed to engage early. You may lose some going in, but that kind of army generally has some punch left even after taking some casualties.

I'd been considering picking up eStryker for a bit before the advent of my Menoth difficulties, so I may go that route. How difficult is eStryker to learn to use?

The Harbinger really doesn't like fighting against ranged forces and if she is handing her focus over to that many jacks, then that means that she can't be camping that much and is therefore highly susceptible to ranged assassinations.

eCaine, pCaine, Kara Sloan and Siege shouldn't have that much trouble dealing with her...

What list are you using?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Welcome to fighting Menoth. Where we go out of our way to mess up your game plan. Menoth: the faction of "No!"

My fiance (who plays Trollbloods) keeps calling Menoth the Grumpy Cat faction. She keeps promising to make me a sign to hold up.

Whenever the random M:tG player comes up to ask me about the game, I just tell them Protectorate is like playing a Blue/White deck. Denial with a bunch of white weenies and some buffed up angels/heros ('jacks).

 grayshadow87 wrote:

 derek wrote:

 grayshadow87 wrote:
He's not running it as a tier. In regard to stand-ins, my group does allow stand-ins.

I think part of my problem may be that I'm running primarily light 'jacks, which may be causing me to have trouble actually doing enough damage to matter. I'm considering investing in a Defender and perhaps a Hunter or two (a light, I know, but it at least has some armor cracking potential) to address my ability to ding up his models, but aside from that I'm unsure how to proceed.

It's a rough list. Because if you try to outshoot it he just sings Passage, and even with Aiyanna it doesn't seem like you can pass out enough magic to one round a jack. I think I'd try Stryker2 against it, working toward getting the speed to engage early. You may lose some going in, but that kind of army generally has some punch left even after taking some casualties.

I'd been considering picking up eStryker for a bit before the advent of my Menoth difficulties, so I may go that route. How difficult is eStryker to learn to use?

His Storm Knight support got a huge boost from the new solo. Have you used Stormblades, Stormguard, and Lances in the past? If you know how to use those, the biggest thing is learning when to potentially take the chance on eStryker's overload buff if you're making him do the killing (which he does really well).

 CIsaac wrote:

My fiance (who plays Trollbloods) keeps calling Menoth the Grumpy Cat faction. She keeps promising to make me a sign to hold up.

 derek wrote:

 grayshadow87 wrote:

 derek wrote:

 grayshadow87 wrote:
He's not running it as a tier. In regard to stand-ins, my group does allow stand-ins.

I think part of my problem may be that I'm running primarily light 'jacks, which may be causing me to have trouble actually doing enough damage to matter. I'm considering investing in a Defender and perhaps a Hunter or two (a light, I know, but it at least has some armor cracking potential) to address my ability to ding up his models, but aside from that I'm unsure how to proceed.

It's a rough list. Because if you try to outshoot it he just sings Passage, and even with Aiyanna it doesn't seem like you can pass out enough magic to one round a jack. I think I'd try Stryker2 against it, working toward getting the speed to engage early. You may lose some going in, but that kind of army generally has some punch left even after taking some casualties.

I'd been considering picking up eStryker for a bit before the advent of my Menoth difficulties, so I may go that route. How difficult is eStryker to learn to use?

His Storm Knight support got a huge boost from the new solo. Have you used Stormblades, Stormguard, and Lances in the past? If you know how to use those, the biggest thing is learning when to potentially take the chance on eStryker's overload buff if you're making him do the killing (which he does really well).

I can't say that I have any experience running the various storm-noun models, as I usually like to use precursor knights and sword knights. Is there anything especially tricky when it comes to using the storm-nouns?

The Stormguard are kind of weak, but they have reach, AND electro leap (meaning with good positioning, and it does have to be VERY good) you can leap onto the Choir model that has to be within 3" of it, they tend to die to stiff breezes. Stormblades are you heavy hitting foot infantry, effectively P+S 15 as long as the leader is alive and within 5", they're a good second line to clean up after your Stormguard have charged in. The new solo lets Storm units move through others, meaning that reach on the guard is even better. Lances are another great unit with that electro leap ability, but it is a ranged attack (which gets +2 to attack and damage if you have laddermore), with their speed you may be able to just get into a position to get LOS to target the Choir directly if he sings no shooting on the jacks.

They are DEF 12 and don't necessarily have ways of increasing their ARM like Sword Knights and Precursors can with defensive line or shield wall. So they become far more vulnerable to anti-infantry shooting. A lot of basic troops with guns or bows have the RAT to hit DEF 12 and the POW of their weapon is often high enough to break through ARM 15.

DEF 13 down to 12 is actually surprisingly significant as 2d6 is a bell curve and needing just one less means you hit a lot more than you'd think.

So you have to protect them a bit more. And think about enemy threat ranges on their guns.

But there is nothing quite like a unit of Storm Blades + UA + 3 Stormgunners totally destroying things on an assault charge.

You could try running a Nemo list against him. eNemo can lock down a jack with his pop gun and pNemo does it with a spell. So long Avatar with that. pNemo's feat tosses out pow 14s and disruption to jacks. He also gives out +2 arm against shooting attacks which should help you deal with splash damage from zealots.

pNemo would have problems targeting the Avatar with that; yey Sacred Ward! That said, just stick it on a jack beside the Avatar...

As a thought, the Gun Mage Cavalry (theory here; never played against them) could be useful for taking out support, being fast and electroleapy. Taryn (merc chick) can make enemy models "disappear" for shooting purposes, making it easier to tag Harby.

 Goremaul wrote:
pNemo would have problems targeting the Avatar with that; yey Sacred Ward! That said, just stick it on a jack beside the Avatar...

As a thought, the Gun Mage Cavalry (theory here; never played against them) could be useful for taking out support, being fast and electroleapy. Taryn (merc chick) can make enemy models "disappear" for shooting purposes, making it easier to tag Harby.

As a Menoth player I can confirm that Tempest Blazers are annoying as hell. They can zip around faster than a lot of Menoth's stuff can redeploy to deal with them. Very good at whacking support models as well.

 Goremaul wrote:
pNemo would have problems targeting the Avatar with that; yey Sacred Ward! That said, just stick it on a jack beside the Avatar...

As a thought, the Gun Mage Cavalry (theory here; never played against them) could be useful for taking out support, being fast and electroleapy. Taryn (merc chick) can make enemy models "disappear" for shooting purposes, making it easier to tag Harby.

I haven't gotten a chance to play against the army mentioned in the original post since the errata made Taryn able to alter LOS for non-faction models, but I'm definitely planning on including her in my next list. I hadn't even considered the Tempest Blazers. I wonder how well they would work with eStryker....