Alternatives to deamon flying circus?

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**Marthike**

Big Blind Bill wrote:
Just something to remember here, I don't think the grimoire can be used on the unit holding it.

FMC's are good but IMO, as with many things in 40k, taking them in 2's or more is often more beneficial. Only having 1 will allow them to focus it more. This is not to say it will be useless, far from it, but 2 or more is far more likely to overwhelm what units they have capable of countering FMC's

Now for horrors, let me say this first: they are good.

Now would I take them in a unit of 10 for compulsory troop requirement to hold an objective? No
The reason being T3 can be dealt with by normal infantry fire, plaguebearers on the other hand are better vs this (even with their re-roll, so will take more heavy fire to get rid of. In a list of FMC's and T4 2W dogs the more heavy fire needed to remove throw away troop choices the better. Another factor is, if both go to ground, one of the best ways to remove them if the enemy army is mech or has bikes/cav is to assault them. Neither unit gets to overwatch and in CC PB's are certainly the better choice.

2d6 str 5 is ok, but remember they do have to do a psychic test before this, have a bs of 3, and give the enemy FNP if they pass a toughness test. If you made them 16+ with a lvl3 psyker herald with conjure loci, then they are fantastic. But with 10, although they may add some firepower, and may be a little more versatile, I wouldn't count on them for much.

With this being said, I believe you could get away with using either in the same role. Both are the same points and both have a survivability that is close to one another. I just believe with FMC's and Dog pile lists that the plague bearers are more durable and more suited to role required of them: Holding objectives and not giving away KP's.

I know that i should taken 2 FMC, it was just the points fit perfectly so i added it in and i was not finnished doing my list.

Another comment was that having soul grinders will not give turn 2 assualt so taking all the advice given to me I came up with this:

HQ - Daemon Prince - daemon of slaanesh, warp forged armour, daemonic flight & 2 x greater rewards. 255 pts
HQ - Daemon Prince - daemon of slaanesh, warp forged armour, daemonic flight & 2 x greater rewards. 255 pts
TR - 11x Horrors. 99 pts
TR - 11x Horrors. 99 pts
TR - 11x Horrors. 99 pts
TR - 10x Plaguebearers. 90 pts
FA - 15x Flesh hounds. 240 pts
FA - 15x Flesh hounds. 240 pts
FA - 10x Screamers. 250 pts
HS - 3x Seeker Chariot. 120 pts

What i take as troops will have to be decided later lol since i just can't currently see which is better. The tactic with this list is like any other MTO list, I have 6 units that can assault turn 2. The troops will all be in reserve and come in turn 2, horrors are 11 so 3D6 shots each from those units and a PB to sit on the home objective and probably go to ground and camp there.

So this is a half anf half list, flying circus and dogs (and some other fast attacks

), The more i think about it the more I like deamons since they just have so much threats in all sections of the army, HQ, FA, HS, all packed with good units.

Obviously the downside of this army is that i dont have much anti air but I do have the 2 princes with lash to deal with flyers or other FMC.

**Big Blind Bill**

Flyers shouldn't be too much of a problem tbh, much of your army will be in CC before they arrive, don't forget your princes can vector strike too which can help vs av 10 or 11 flyers.

**Smurfy**

Big Blind Bill wrote:
Just something to remember here, I don't think the grimoire can be used on the unit holding it.

FMC's are good but IMO, as with many things in 40k, taking them in 2's or more is often more beneficial. Only having 1 will allow them to focus it more. This is not to say it will be useless, far from it, but 2 or more is far more likely to overwhelm what units they have capable of countering FMC's

Now for horrors, let me say this first: they are good.

Now would I take them in a unit of 10 for compulsory troop requirement to hold an objective? No

It's what I do when I can get allies - One unit of Horrors + Nurglings. More points for decent allied scoring and still have the Portal option in those games you need it but...

The reason being T3 can be dealt with by normal infantry fire, plaguebearers on the other hand are better vs this (even with their re-roll, so will take more heavy fire to get rid of. In a list of FMC's and T4 2W dogs the more heavy fire needed to remove throw away troop choices the better. Another factor is, if both go to ground, one of the best ways to remove them if the enemy army is mech or has bikes/cav is to assault them. Neither unit gets to overwatch and in CC PB's are certainly the better choice.

You countered this already with Assault for both choices. Only a dumb opponent will shoot either unit in the long term, since apparently 10+ units in my opponent's face are somehow being ignored yet the guys with the 3+/2+ re rollable Cover save get more attention...I think Dogs can actually die, the more I consider Target Priority against myself

2d6 str 5 is ok, but remember they do have to do a psychic test before this, have a bs of 3, and give the enemy FNP if they pass a toughness test. If you made them 16+ with a lvl3 psyker herald with conjure loci, then they are fantastic. But with 10, although they may add some firepower, and may be a little more versatile, I wouldn't count on them for much.

Pass a Psy test on Ld 10, compared to 8 or lower for other choices of simliar cost (See Psyker Battle Squads and Slaanesh/Nurgle Heralds); BS 3 is 50/50, nothing more nothing less; FNP Strawman? a 6+ is going to ruin my game? I can't count how many games that's been a game breaker, it's too low

With this being said, I believe you could get away with using either in the same role. Both are the same points and both have a survivability that is close to one another. I just believe with FMC's and Dog pile lists that the plague bearers are more durable and more suited to role required of them: Holding objectives and not giving away KP's.

And by the same reason Horrors are better, they pay 14 points over their base cost for Precision Shots and 3D6 shots over 2D6. Sure, a Deny The Witch is the common "arg" but they are a lot more versatile than Plaguebearers. (Unless you're still running Epidemius)

BTW you can indeed Grimoire your own unit upon reading it.

Just justifying my side of the story; I really don't see FMCs as good unless it's the guy with the Grimoire buff at the time. (And this is normally Fateweaver, the moment that sod drops his 2+ Invul the enemy should have a plan of action to take him out.) This is because I still play a mix of MSU and medium/larger units and a lot of vehicles. Lot's of KPs, but that's only 1/6 of missions now and First Blood is generally gotten by whoever has first turn anyway.

~0.02

**Big Blind Bill**

BTW you can indeed Grimoire your own unit upon reading it.

I'd contest this tbh. From what I've seen being played its only other units, not the holder. The wording of the rules is unclear. But the fluff of the rules makes the RAI pretty clear. Why would the owner of the book use it to show his superiority over himself? I know fluff arguments prove nothing, but just some food for thought until someone can come along and prove otherwise.

And by the same reason Horrors are better, they pay 14 points over their base cost for Precision Shots and 3D6 shots over 2D6. Sure, a Deny The Witch is the common "arg" but they are a lot more versatile than Plaguebearers. (Unless you're still running Epidemius)

Agreed. However with a dedicated FMC or dog list in mind, you don't want to be spending points on troops more than you have to. I agree horrors are good if you put the points into them. But if I had thee option, I'd take dogs over horrors for these kind of lists. The troops here are simple a tax you must take, and personally I'd like to keep the points low and the unit out of the way and scoring as much as possible.

**Smurfy**

Dont want to be spending points on Troops more than you have to...Troops are a simple tax you must pay...I want to keep the points low...Score as much as possible.

Contradictory much seeing as Troops are the main Scoring choice, the cheapest units in the Daemons codex (Aside from Furies, but I'm just starting to try those out with Karanak attached), and the main way to win is to hold objectives?

I mean look at the 2x 10 PB, 1x 10 Cultist FMC "template"

That gets rocked by anyone in a Objective game that has methods to get to that piss poor Scoring.

**Big Blind Bill**

You misunderstand. I want to hold objectives, but most of the points in these kind of lists should be focused on the big hitters. With the remaining points on troops you shouldnt really be using them to fight, just to hold objectives.

So, the least points needed, for the best possible objective covering potential.

Horrors to be effective need more points than plaguebearers. Hence why I'd take PB's in the list over horrors.

**Azreal13**

Big Blind Bill wrote:
BTW you can indeed Grimoire your own unit upon reading it.

I'd contest this tbh. From what I've seen being played its only other units, not the holder. The wording of the rules is unclear. But the fluff of the rules makes the RAI pretty clear. Why would the owner of the book use it to show his superiority over himself? I know fluff arguments prove nothing, but just some food for thought until someone can come along and prove otherwise.

Fluff is absolutely not even worth considering when it comes to rules discussions.

Would you mind quoting the exact phrase you think prevents targeting your own unit? I've read the codex many times and never once considered this was an issue.

**Marthike**

I think you can target your own unit, no where it says it can't, it just says the bearer does not get affected by it.

**Azreal13**

Marthike wrote:
I think you can target your own unit, no where it says it can't, it just says the bearer does not get affected by it.

No, in fact, if the intention was to exclude your own unit, the specific clause excepting the bearer would be redundant. In theory, a single character could still target himself, but would just be excluded from the effects.

**floraljetbike**

You really don't get why someone would take a Bloodthirster? Come on now....

**Marthike**

floraljetbike wrote:
You really don't get why someone would take a Bloodthirster? Come on now....

Compared to a deamon prince, I feel the prince is better, Bloodthirster is great in CC but that means i lose some anti air, and I feel a deamon prince is already great in CC unless I have to face something like a trygon or another monstrous creature. But i think i got enough rending hits to deal with them

**Big Blind Bill**

Grimoire section in Codex Daemons says the holder can not be effected by it. Ok.. If you want to be pedantic then sure, you could target your own demon prince who is holding the book. It's just nothing would happen.

You can use in on a unit the holder is with though of course.

Why try and persuade people that you can use the grimoire on a single model holding it, if it has no effect.

**Azreal13**

Big Blind Bill wrote:
BTW you can indeed Grimoire your own unit upon reading it.

I'd contest this tbh. From what I've seen being played its only other units, not the holder. The wording of the rules is unclear. But the fluff of the rules makes the RAI pretty clear. Why would the owner of the book use it to show his superiority over himself? I know fluff arguments prove nothing, but just some food for thought until someone can come along and prove otherwise.

Big Blind Bill wrote:Grimoire section in Codex Daemons says the holder can not be effected by it. Ok.. If you want to be pedantic then sure, you could target your own demon prince who is holding the book. It's just nothing would happen.

You can use in on a unit the holder is with though of course.

Why try and persuade people that you can use the grimoire on a single model holding it, if it has no effect.

I wasn't trying to persuade anyone of anything, you claimed you would contest anyone trying to use the book on their own unit, despite the exclusion specifically applying only to the effects on the bearer. I was merely pointing out that you were wrong, to the point where the the bearer can even target themselves if they want to.

**Big Blind Bill**

I would contest the holder trying to get the + save. But thanks for trying.

**Azreal13**

Big Blind Bill wrote:
I would contest the holder trying to get the + save. But thanks for trying.

So, you'd contest something specifically forbidden in the codex?

Yeah, so would I.

However in your original post you said you'd contest someone targeting their own unit which is perfectly legal.

Thanks for trying.

**MarkyMark**

azreal13 wrote:
Marthike wrote:
I think you can target your own unit, no where it says it can't, it just says the bearer does not get affected by it.

No, in fact, if the intention was to exclude your own unit, the specific clause excepting the bearer would be redundant. In theory, a single character could still target himself, but would just be excluded from the effects.

As above, the same wording is in effect for Prescience, you going to argue you cannot prescience your own unit?, is the unit you are in a friendly unit with 24inches? yes.