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Martel732 wrote:
I'm not bashing Ailaros as much as expressing skepticism of the drop pod. Units are stuck foot slogging after they drop in, and I'm just not a huge fan of that. Personally, I think marine transport options are some of the worst in the game and we are essentially debating whether crap is better than a turd.

If only BA could have open topped Rhinos...... I'd even settle for Ork trukks.

I don't understand your thought process behind transports. If the Rhino blows, you are stuck on foot AND haven't reached your destination.

Also I'd be interested in knowing what footslogging and Rhinos rate on a scale of 10 from Akiasura, who gave Drop Pods a rating of 6/10 which doesn't really tell us anything. Do marines even have a 10/10 option? Probably not.

I still think Rhinos are worth it, because they're pretty cheap overall, but they're definitely not ideal. They would be much nicer if they were fast, or assault vehicles, or had a little more armor.

For 35 points they're a good price, but it's one of those situations where I'd rather spend 60ish points and get two of those three up there than 35 points and just a rhino.

 illuknisaa wrote:
I don't think any vehicle can be first blood as to regarded as fisrt blood you need be able to remove the model as casualty. Vehicles are never removed as casualties they only suffer from effects of destruction.

I hadn't considered this, but it seems you might be right. Based on the wording in the rulebook (and my inability to find anything in the FAQ) I don't know if First Blood can be applied to a rhino short of an Explodes result....

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not bashing Ailaros as much as expressing skepticism of the drop pod. Units are stuck foot slogging after they drop in, and I'm just not a huge fan of that. Personally, I think marine transport options are some of the worst in the game and we are essentially debating whether crap is better than a turd.

If only BA could have open topped Rhinos...... I'd even settle for Ork trukks.

I don't understand your thought process behind transports. If the Rhino blows, you are stuck on foot AND haven't reached your destination.

Also I'd be interested in knowing what footslogging and Rhinos rate on a scale of 10 from Akiasura, who gave Drop Pods a rating of 6/10 which doesn't really tell us anything. Do marines even have a 10/10 option? Probably not.

Sometimes I don't want to commit my units to a location on turn 1 or turn 2. Those locations might not be safe until turn 4/5, but the drop pod doesn't give me the flexibility to adapt to that.

Here's thing thing:

Worrying about First Blood with rhinos in 6th is even less a big deal than KPs in 5th. Now, rhinos were very good in 5th, and are at best ok now, but letting one mission rule affect your build is probably not the best.

Rhinos give a squad a lot of mobility. I'm not impressed by discussions of late game mobility, because counting on a rhino to live to turn four or five is... ambitious.

Personally, I feel that most armies have better mobile elements, and that buying transports for objective grabbing/firefight units is not always the strongest play. Exceptions can (and should) be made for Sister.

It's not just late game mobility. It's not having to commit with drop pods in the first two turns.

Martel732 wrote:
It's not just late game mobility. It's not having to commit with drop pods in the first two turns.

yeah, but your troops are just as stuck if they're in a rhino that blew up on turn one or two.

I think you Just need a reason for the squad to need a rhino now. Before, you just took a rhino because, well, they are cheap and durable. Now, you need to really need that mobility. There are reasons for it, but IMO its limited to high firepower squads that really want to double tap (things like multiple plasmas). For most squads, they can fire almost as much on foot.

Akiasura wrote:
Saying they are separate is, frankly, ludicrous. They are both transports and cost roughly the same, how are they not comparable?

They have a lot of differences. Rhinos seem far more flexible than drop pods. Drop pods do more movement quickly, but they do all their moving at once, sitting still in one spot even if the opponent doesn't shoot at them.

Also there seems to be a lot of passion in this thread about hate for metal boxes. Be careful you don't fall to Chaos...

Look! Rhinos! RRRRRRHHHHIIIIIIINNNNNOOOSSSSS! Our enemies hide in METAL BAWKSES, DA KOWARDZ! THE FEWLZ!! We...*Asthma attack* We should take away their METAL BAWKSES!
...SSSSSINDRRRIIIIIIII!!!

Generally, I wouldn't rate any marine transport higher than a 6 outside of the wolf dex, where I'd give razors a 7. But then again, they aren't being used as transports, more as an extra plasma/las cannon and mobile cover.
With hull points being added to the game, it's hard to rank any non flier vehicle higher than an 8/10... I could take the time and list all the vehicles in this game along with scores and a brief discussions on why I think that, but
A) that is outside the scope of this thread
B) I doubt I have the credibility to have such a list carry any weight.
Just to give you an idea, I'd rate DE transports, vendettas and necron fliers as pretty high up there. Not because they are amazing in a vacuum (though i am jealous of necrons here) but more because of how needed they are within their own codex.
Again, this could be my older mindset at play. This is one of the worst editions for transports.

For foots logging, it depends entirely on the unit in question.

Plague marines I'd rate lower because they really benefit from a rhino, while noise marines should never be in one. So 4/10 and 7/10 respectively.

Loyalist marines should be walking if they plan on holding a backfield objective, with a razorback for the special weapons team (I'd always split them up), and drop podding if you are going mech light, which does seem more popular lately. 2-3/10 for a rhino, 5-6/10 for razor back, 6-7 for drop pod, but this assumes lists taken to support these choices. I think everyone here is experienced enough (I recognize many of you from several threads I follow) to know what I mean. Foot slogging special weapon teams are a 4/10

BA I'd switch the rhino and drop pod scores. That extra 6" move means spamming rhinos is viable, and I really don't like jump pack troops with them (which sucks, I know). The list itself doesn't work well with drop pod spam when compared to regular marines. Foot slogging I'd say is a no go here, mostly because BA squads seem to be more expensive than most due to the priest being taken in every other squad, though that could be a local thing. I've never played BA or found them threatening in any edition.

Wolves I'd give a 7/10 for razors. I've never used anything else or seen anything else fielded with them. Obviously they can't take drop pods. I'd rate foot slogging a point less, but it's debatable. They don't do armor saturation due to lack of fliers and long fangs being the obvious choice means all infantry is more viable than other marine dexes are.

I don't like tau or Eldar transports. I've never liked wave serpents even when they were good in 3rd edition (though they were so...there is no other word but 'dirty' that fits) and tau transports seem a pale shadow of their former glory. Foot slogging tau I'd rate at an 9/10, with Eldar being slightly behind at an 8. Mostly due to the lower range of the average Eldar weapon, and tau getting mobility from suits.


Talore, while they may be different rules wise, their goal is similar. Place the special weapons of infantry units in ideal range before the unit inside dies. Drop pods allow optimal placement of termies, stern guard, and troops without mishaps. If chaos could take them, I'd drop my noise marines for plague marines in a heart beat and spam these like no other.

Martel, any unit not being deployed until turn 4/5 better be getting an objective (and this dirt cheap and hiding the entire game) or...I honestly can't think of another reason to wait that long. Granted, it was the reason Eldar were so good in 3rd, so it's not all bad, but marines don't excel at this, IMO. Maybe BA, since they are faster and can thus find more places to hide. I don't think a rhino will live that long if it threatens a win however

I agree with polonius. Most units that are good are either mobile within themselves (bikes, spawn, wraiths, suits), long range (fangs, havoks) or tougher than a transport (wraiths, plague marines)

Sorry for the edits...autocorrect is a pain.

I wouldn't call it hate, but I do tend to disagree with him. I also follow that up with detailed explanations why.

He tends to boldly state his opinions as well known fact, when they're anything but. That, in and of itself, is going to open you up to quite a bit of dissention. If you're going to put yourself out there like that, you have to expect such a response. This is particularly true in his case when you consider how far off norm his statements tend to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Akiasura: You say Wolves can't take Pods? May I ask where you're getting that from? I would rate Wolves as the army best suited for Drop Pod spam as they have far and away the best troop choice to put inside it.

My mistake, I mixed up drop pods with teleporting on the termies, since that is what I wanted to use them for. I actually own 2 drop pods for this army, though I haven't played it since the chaos dex released and haven't actually used the pods.

I'm not sure if they'd be better than loyalist with pods then. Though given counter attack and über grit, you are most likely right. They are the only army I actually get to use all my razorback models with though, so I always went with that. I also can never roll more than 1 hit per long fang squad, so my wolf list is pretty a typical and included a lot of vehicles.
Yes, my long fangs are the drunkest of all long fangs.

I don't think hating on Rhinos is very atypical, they went from golden forts to crap in an edition change. And they were very expensive to get, money to point wise.
Granted, this is only for the one thread.


Edit:
I thought about it some more, and while wolves have excellent infantry (probably the best in game and certainly the best MEQ), they don't have many other choices that drop well. One of the reasons that marines make excellent use of the pods is stern guard and termies dropping in the back field, providing high priority targets and a crap ton of killing. I still would put pods for wolves as equal with razor backs, but not superior. If thunder wolves were more cost efficient, or scouts didn't get nerfed, I'd agree.
I'll leave my mistake in the original post though

What are the top merits of a Rhino vs. a Razorback? Seems a Razorback offers slightly less mobility for boosted fluidity and firepower, albeit at a premium.

I'm struggling with the decision between taking Razorbacks or Rhinos. What other units/list designs support each style of play?

Grey Knights like Rhinos because they can shoot 2 Psycannons out of the lid with a 10 man squad. Razorbacks are the GK choice if you still prefer MSU styles of play, which is another topic. Psyammo can turn a RB into a mini gunboat with a TLAC or HB. Both options have their place.

Most other Imperial armies prefer Razorbacks as the gun on top is useful and a basic Marine isn't actually very good in combat, so they have no need to get Drop Pod close sans a unit or two of Sternguard.

Wolves like Pods because Grey's are actually quite efficient in very close quarters.

Chaos and Sisters like Rhinos as that is the best they have to work with. Give the guys inside as much Plasma as possible and stick a Havoc Launcher on top and you have a decent forward objective unit for CSM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I'm not sure if this has gone unnoticed or not, but it isn't legal.

Heavymind said: "Moving up 6", disembarking, shooting, then using the rhino to go flat out and block the unit is amazing. "

You CANNOT flatout after moving+disembarking. This is a common rules error. I don't have my book with me, but it's in the transport section in a non-obvious spot.

Edit: Pg. 79, Disembarking, "If the vehicle had already moved before the unit disembarked, the vehicle cannot move further..."

The Chaos Codex has two options for transports: Chaos Landraiders and Rhinos. No drop pods. I would take drop pods every damn time if I could, but I can't. I find the use in rhinos ferrying slow as molasses plague marines mid field that they may dakka to their hearts content. Same with noise marines. One turn, bam, optimal firing position. They never have to move after that. They're 35 points, they're normally first blood, but it's a risk I am willing to take.

Yep for CSM's Rhinos never get me where i want to go, but they can stop me losing 24ppm PM's to large blasts such as battle cannons / Demo Cannons.

Drop pods, i dream of drop pods. So they cannot move after... You can use them to drop midfield and be guaranteed to actually be there. You don't have to use DP's to drop you guys down the enemies throats.

Against Daemons and other "in your face builds" it helps to have DP's so you don't get hemmed in and make they worry about where you'd actually drop that pod instead of your opponent knowing you have to Rhino rush.

 Aleph-Sama wrote:
I run 2 rhinos and a drop pod in my list, along with 3 land speeders. The drop pod has combi-weapon termies in it (SW player), and the speeders are a much softer target. On top of that, I use my rune priest to cast Storm Caller on my rhinos so even after they flat out, they still have a 5+ cover save. My rhinos aren't an immediate threat, plus I have numerous distraction units. And I have no cares about giving up first blood because I typically get line breaker with my outflanking squad which makes up for it.

Also on the note of drop pods... If you're MEQ... As soon as a helldrake comes on the table you're getting vector struck then baleflamed because you're not inside of a metal box. You are literally begging to get shot. Also, Tau have interceptor out the arse, and will shoot you the moment you can do anything including with the riptide.

I totally agree with this. I like Drop Pods but they're countered about as easily as Rhinos are with less control over it for me. If I'm fighting Eldar, they'll just stick their Wave Serpents "ass-to-ass" and now my Meltaguns can't hit rear armour. Or they'll reserve their D-scythes and annihilate my Podders as soon as they come on the table (doubly so if they're running Iyanden and Battle Focus them). Or they could just put all their good/easy targets off the board and suddenly that "deploy anywhere you want to" benefit becomes somewhat null. Interceptor can mess you up as well of course. At least with Rhinos I have the flexibility to use them how I want to and not let my opponent effectively neutralize them based on their list... or maybe I just don't want to drop ~$200 on Drop Pods when I've already got lots of Rhinos.

Given the number of non-SW drop lists I've cut to pieces with BA, I'm not banking on drop pods to win the day.

The 6E rules have gone a long way specifically to punishing the Rhino (and by extension, all vehicles instead of handling it as a codex issue). They certainly have significantly less utility and lifespan than they used to. That said, for MEQ units primarily relying on short range firepower and not really intending on getting into assault, they still provide some value. For anything wanting to get into assault however, look to other FoC slots for bikes, jump infantry, etc.

Martel732 wrote:
Given the number of non-SW drop lists I've cut to pieces with BA, I'm not banking on drop pods to win the day.

Slightly off topic, but what makes SW that much better at drop lists? Just because their Grey Hunters are so good for their cost?

Their GH pack double special weapons which fire normally on the drop turn and GH quite literally don't give a feth if they get assaulted. Even by BA.

By contrast, a C:SM or BA drop list falls apart when the opposing list assaults their units that just crawled out of the drop pods.

Until Chaos gets drop pods, we are more limited on our transport choices.
We can eat up Heavy slots with Land Raiders, or footslog or use Rhinos.
For a short-medium range unit like plasma CSMs, getting in range sooner increases the impact we have on the table top.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not bashing Ailaros as much as expressing skepticism of the drop pod. Units are stuck foot slogging after they drop in, and I'm just not a huge fan of that. Personally, I think marine transport options are some of the worst in the game and we are essentially debating whether crap is better than a turd.

If only BA could have open topped Rhinos...... I'd even settle for Ork trukks.

Ork Trukks are superior to Rhinos:

1. They carry Orks instead of Meq

2. They carry MegaNobz instead of nothing (Teq)

3. Ramshackle allows upto and additional 18" movement, usually towards the direction you want to go and then a regular 6" disembark as opposed to 3" when it wrecks.

4. They're fast and all passengers can shoot and assault. Also reroll DT tests with a 5 pts add-on.

5. Cooler.