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So I am confused, were the Eldar and the Orks created to fight the Necrons? And is this really the way the old ones fought their wars?
The Old One's created the universe, and they exist in the material plane, not the warp. It makes some sense that they would have some immense power.
Just how strong where the C'tan? And what did the Necrons really use to take the Old Ones down?
On another note, the old ones created life, and the warp is described as being emotion manifest. Like everything you do or say becomes real somewhere. Did the warp even exist before the Old one's created life?
And when did the three first chaos gods come into play?

If I messed up only anything lemme know, just a few questions, and a person hoping for a good conversation here

 Njal Derphunter wrote:
So I am confused, were the Eldar and the Orks created to fight the Necrons? And is this really the way the old ones fought their wars?
The Old One's created the universe, and they exist in the material plane, not the warp. It makes some sense that they would have some immense power.
Just how strong where the C'tan? And what did the Necrons really use to take the Old Ones down?
On another note, the old ones created life, and the warp is described as being emotion manifest. Like everything you do or say becomes real somewhere. Did the warp even exist before the Old one's created life?
And when did the three first chaos gods come into play?

If I messed up only anything lemme know, just a few questions, and a person hoping for a good conversation here

1) Yes. It makes sense really; we build drones to fight our battles and supplement our forces, the Old Ones genetically engineer whole races.

2) The Old Ones did not create the universe. They created life, but that's a much easier thing to do. Besides, they only created life in our galaxy, and they are only from our galaxy. They are native to the material plane, but their advanced psychic powers allows them to travel through the warp.

3) The C'tan are gods who have complete mastery of the material realm. It took the whole necron race with their advanced technology and improved bodies (which were granted to them by the C'tan) to defeat them.

4) The Necrons used whatever technological secrets the C'tan gave them. Considering how the Necrons were already more technologically advanced than the Old Ones, that's pretty impressive.

5) The warp was always around. Sentient life forms just have an effect on it, just as throwing a stone in an lake has an effect on the water. Psychic life forms have an even greater effect on the warp. Like throwing a boulder in the same lake.
The Old Ones did not create all life; they only created some life forms, often those with a latent psychic power (Eldar, Orks, possibly humans). Why is unknown; possibly as an experiment or to ensure control of their territories.

6) The first 3 Chaos Gods came into existence way, way after the War in Heaven. Around the time humanity started building civilizations, iirc. Slaanesh spawned into existence during the Dark Age of Technology, iirc.

ignore this

DA SPEED FREEK wrote:

1) Yes. It makes sense really; we build drones to fight our battles and supplement our forces, the Old Ones genetically engineer whole races.

2) The Old Ones did not create the universe. They created life, but that's a much easier thing to do. Besides, they only created life in our galaxy, and they are only from our galaxy. They are native to the material plane, but their advanced psychic powers allows them to travel through the warp.

3) The C'tan are gods who have complete mastery of the material realm. It took the whole necron race with their advanced technology and improved bodies (which were granted to them by the C'tan) to defeat them.

4) The Necrons used whatever technological secrets the C'tan gave them. Considering how the Necrons were already more technologically advanced than the Old Ones, that's pretty impressive.

5) The warp was always around. Sentient life forms just have an effect on it, just as throwing a stone in an lake has an effect on the water. Psychic life forms have an even greater effect on the warp. Like throwing a boulder in the same lake.
The Old Ones did not create all life; they only created some life forms, often those with a latent psychic power (Eldar, Orks, possibly humans). Why is unknown; possibly as an experiment or to ensure control of their territories.

6) The first 3 Chaos Gods came into existence way, way after the War in Heaven. Around the time humanity started building civilizations, iirc. Slaanesh spawned into existence during the Dark Age of Technology, iirc.

War, Death and change are timeless. as far as I know the 3 chaos gods were here befor the war in heaven but definatly nowhere near as powerful.
there are different ideas on who created the orks (old ones or brain boys) either way they were created to be the perfect body gaurds (tough, stupid and in there thosands) but they still couldent protect their masters.
other races were created with the purpose to protect the old ones from the necrons but the rest of the races(as far as I know) , like the C'tan, where ethier natural or the old ones playing god

how powerful were the C'tan?
they were gods, destruction incarnate. just take the stats for a shard, now times that buy roughly 10,000, that will give you an idea of how powerful they were

CthululsSpy pretty much hit the nail on the head here.

I think we see further evidence of the Old Ones propensity for creating races to do the work for them in the Tyranids. Think about it, they are coming to basically clear the galaxy off, scour it clean of everything then die off from starvation. So the old ones can then return from wherever it is that they are hiding(probably outside of the galactic plane) once the Nids have basically given them a clean slate.

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
CthululsSpy pretty much hit the nail on the head here.

I think we see further evidence of the Old Ones propensity for creating races to do the work for them in the Tyranids. Think about it, they are coming to basically clear the galaxy off, scour it clean of everything then die off from starvation. So the old ones can then return from wherever it is that they are hiding(probably outside of the galactic plane) once the Nids have basically given them a clean slate.

They Tyranids wouldn't die of starvation. They would become native and create a perfectly balanced galaxy-wide ecosystem.

 DeffDred wrote:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
CthululsSpy pretty much hit the nail on the head here.

I think we see further evidence of the Old Ones propensity for creating races to do the work for them in the Tyranids. Think about it, they are coming to basically clear the galaxy off, scour it clean of everything then die off from starvation. So the old ones can then return from wherever it is that they are hiding(probably outside of the galactic plane) once the Nids have basically given them a clean slate.

They Tyranids wouldn't die of starvation. They would become native and create a perfectly balanced galaxy-wide ecosystem.

unless they could find more biomass in a different galaxy the would die of starvation or consume themselves,
they wouldn't become native or create a balanced ecosystem simply because they leave nothing behind, they just consume a planets wildlife and population turning the planet into a unliveable rock with little atmespher and no life. although the idea that there just wiping the slate dose make a lot of sense.

Hes thinking about the tyranids that survive attacks in which all the synapse creatures are destroyed. Those do in fact become native to the planet since they have been removed from the Hive mind and have no guidance anymore.


Theres no proof whatsoever that tyranids were created by the old ones, and its acctually a popular belief that the Hive mind is in fact a gathering around one of the C'tan (the one that the eldar shot out of the galaxey and went insane).

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
CthululsSpy pretty much hit the nail on the head here.

I think we see further evidence of the Old Ones propensity for creating races to do the work for them in the Tyranids. Think about it, they are coming to basically clear the galaxy off, scour it clean of everything then die off from starvation. So the old ones can then return from wherever it is that they are hiding(probably outside of the galactic plane) once the Nids have basically given them a clean slate.

So the old ones created the Tyranids to clean up, but they leave the necrons alone ?.
They created the tyranids to do the necrons work for them. Really

Why does everyone think the nids were created by the old ones? They really aren't.

1) They are from a completely different galaxy, far, far away from where the old ones originated.

2) They do not have the same body structure as the other old one creations.

3) They do not access the warp, which is a common feature with Old One creations (Orks draw their power from Gork and Mork, which are warp gods, Eldar and Humans are obvious).

4) There is no bit of fluff that implies that the Tyranids were created by the Old Ones, nor by the C'tan.

To my understanding Old Ones did not create some races like enslavers or orks but instead drew them from the warp as a last attempt to win the war against necrons. It was too late for old ones but it left orks without masters (maybe orks are "deamons" who made a deal with old ones to fight for them).

 illuknisaa wrote:
To my understanding Old Ones did not create some races like enslavers or orks but instead drew them from the warp as a last attempt to win the war against necrons. It was too late for old ones but it left orks without masters (maybe orks are "deamons" who made a deal with old ones to fight for them).

The Krork (Orks), were definitely created by the Old ones. The Enslavers were a result of the Old ones tampering too much with he Warp, they were not intended to come out at all.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Why does everyone think the nids were created by the old ones? They really aren't.

1) They are from a completely different galaxy, far, far away from where the old ones originated.

2) They do not have the same body structure as the other old one creations.

3) They do not access the warp, which is a common feature with Old One creations (Orks draw their power from Gork and Mork, which are warp gods, Eldar and Humans are obvious).

4) There is no bit of fluff that implies that the Tyranids were created by the Old Ones, nor by the C'tan.

Right on all accounts. The Tyranids come from outside this galaxy. Even with warp travel such a journey could take millions of years to cross such vast distances, meaning that the Tyranids probably outdated the Old Ones, who were the first sentient race to evolve to an interstellar state, but only in this galaxy. That being said they'd also predate the C'Tan, maybe not in age, but from the point the C'Tan crossed the Starlight Bridge and took Necrodermis bodies...which is when they started noticing things other then stars and other astral phenomena.


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 Sasori wrote:

 illuknisaa wrote:
To my understanding Old Ones did not create some races like enslavers or orks but instead drew them from the warp as a last attempt to win the war against necrons. It was too late for old ones but it left orks without masters (maybe orks are "deamons" who made a deal with old ones to fight for them).

The Krork (Orks), were definitely created by the Old ones. The Enslavers were a result of the Old ones tampering too much with he Warp, they were not intended to come out at all.

Also just adding, the Old Ones never created life, they just guided the evolution of creatures they found via genetic and psychic manulation.

 loki old fart wrote:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
CthululsSpy pretty much hit the nail on the head here.

I think we see further evidence of the Old Ones propensity for creating races to do the work for them in the Tyranids. Think about it, they are coming to basically clear the galaxy off, scour it clean of everything then die off from starvation. So the old ones can then return from wherever it is that they are hiding(probably outside of the galactic plane) once the Nids have basically given them a clean slate.

So the old ones created the Tyranids to clean up, but they leave the necrons alone ?.
They created the tyranids to do the necrons work for them. Really

The Tyranids leaving the Necrons alone is older lore. There are examples of Tyranids and Necrons fighting in both the new Tyranids codex, and the new Necrons codex.

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
CthululsSpy pretty much hit the nail on the head here.

I think we see further evidence of the Old Ones propensity for creating races to do the work for them in the Tyranids. Think about it, they are coming to basically clear the galaxy off, scour it clean of everything then die off from starvation. So the old ones can then return from wherever it is that they are hiding(probably outside of the galactic plane) once the Nids have basically given them a clean slate.

So the old ones created the Tyranids to clean up, but they leave the necrons alone ?.
They created the tyranids to do the necrons work for them. Really

The Tyranids leaving the Necrons alone is older lore. There are examples of Tyranids and Necrons fighting in both the new Tyranids codex, and the new Necrons codex.

And I thought that even in the older fluff the 'nids didn't go after necron tomb worlds purely because the vast majority were lifeless planets with no biomass to harvest, not because of any link between the Tyranids and the Necrons.

Also didn't the hivefleets steer clear of that rumored Dyson sphere where old fluff hinted the C'Tan Outsider was imprisoned? Even then it was more because of the psychic null-zone that exists around the Outsider, and its disrupting effect on the Hive Mind.

 greg0985 wrote:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
CthululsSpy pretty much hit the nail on the head here.

I think we see further evidence of the Old Ones propensity for creating races to do the work for them in the Tyranids. Think about it, they are coming to basically clear the galaxy off, scour it clean of everything then die off from starvation. So the old ones can then return from wherever it is that they are hiding(probably outside of the galactic plane) once the Nids have basically given them a clean slate.

So the old ones created the Tyranids to clean up, but they leave the necrons alone ?.
They created the tyranids to do the necrons work for them. Really

The Tyranids leaving the Necrons alone is older lore. There are examples of Tyranids and Necrons fighting in both the new Tyranids codex, and the new Necrons codex.

And I thought that even in the older fluff the 'nids didn't go after necron tomb worlds purely because the vast majority were lifeless planets with no biomass to harvest, not because of any link between the Tyranids and the Necrons.

Also didn't the hivefleets steer clear of that rumored Dyson sphere where old fluff hinted the C'Tan Outsider was imprisoned? Even then it was more because of the psychic null-zone that exists around the Outsider, and its disrupting effect on the Hive Mind.

I don't have either old or new of the nid codices at hand, but from what I understand you're pretty much correct.

Most (not all) Necron tomb worlds aren't very appetizing to tyranids, in addition to that, null field matrices disrupt contact with the warp. Necrons also (unless something changed in lore that I missed) cannot be harvested for biomass like other, fleshier races. So there aren't many reasons for nids to go out of their way to engage Necrons, but there are plenty of instances where they bump into each other.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Why does everyone think the nids were created by the old ones? They really aren't.

Because 40k lore is open to interpretation? Could you find me a solid source that says otherwise?

1) They are from a completely different galaxy, far, far away from where the old ones originated.

True. Where did the Old Ones originate exactly?

2) They do not have the same body structure as the other old one creations.

The Old Ones created life. They are insect lizards. Six limbs is an insect.

3) They do not access the warp, which is a common feature with Old One creations (Orks draw their power from Gork and Mork, which are warp gods, Eldar and Humans are obvious).

Aren't Tyranid powers described as being drawn form the warp?

4) There is no bit of fluff that implies that the Tyranids were created by the Old Ones, nor by the C'tan.

Xenology.

 illuknisaa wrote:
To my understanding Old Ones did not create some races like enslavers or orks but instead drew them from the warp as a last attempt to win the war against necrons. It was too late for old ones but it left orks without masters (maybe orks are "deamons" who made a deal with old ones to fight for them).

In the original Ork fluff, the snotlings were the advanced creaters and masters of the Orks. There was a fungus the snotlings would eat to give them the mental prowess to engineer the Orks and implant, genetically the abilities of a Madboy, Painboy, Mech, etc. The downfall came when Orks learned to eat the fungus and devoured it all, making the snotlings turn into Ork slaves. Since then, the fluff appears to have been changed, as is often the case when new writers are put on it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snotling

 DeffDred wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Why does everyone think the nids were created by the old ones? They really aren't.

Because 40k lore is open to interpretation? Could you find me a solid source that says otherwise?

1) They are from a completely different galaxy, far, far away from where the old ones originated.

True. Where did the Old Ones originate exactly?

2) They do not have the same body structure as the other old one creations.

The Old Ones created life. They are insect lizards. Six limbs is an insect.

3) They do not access the warp, which is a common feature with Old One creations (Orks draw their power from Gork and Mork, which are warp gods, Eldar and Humans are obvious).

Aren't Tyranid powers described as being drawn form the warp?

4) There is no bit of fluff that implies that the Tyranids were created by the Old Ones, nor by the C'tan.

Xenology.

The Old Ones originated in the Milky Way.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Old_Ones

The Old Ones did not create all life (see: Necrontyr), they directed it according to their specifications. If you look at some of the Old One engineered races (Humans, Eldar, Orks, Jokaero), you'll see none of them have any similarity to tyranids.
It also makes no sense that the Old Ones would create a race like the nids; the Old Ones wanted to guide the evolution of sentient races. Creating a race that exists only to destroy other races would be counter productive. Even Orks can be reasoned with, and they are a warrior breed.

Considering how tyranid psychic activity does not attract daemons or that nid spacecraft do not use to the warp to travel, it's pretty clear that they do not use the warp.

I do not recall that being implied in Xenology. Do you have an excerpt?

Relapse wrote:

Since then, the fluff appears to have been changed, as is often the case when new writers are put on it.

The current Codex: Orks does reiterate this background leaving just enough of a possibility of the old Codex: Necrons background still holding true as to mask the shake up in the Necron background that has taken place in their current Codex.

There is now no mention of the Old Ones tampering with any of the younger races, the Codex simply saying, 'They brought under siege the fortresses of the Old Ones allies...' Unless a more recent Codex has reiterated the old Codex: Necrons background I personally would not accept it as truth any more. It wasn't a great move to simply say the Old Ones/C'tan did it all and the new background material reads much better.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Old Ones originated in the Milky Way.

Yes, but there's nothing to say they didn't travel or make back up plans. If the warp was becoming a problem then it could be considered that the Old Ones created them as a failsafe against Daemonic domination.

The Old Ones did not create all life (see: Necrontyr), they directed it according to their specifications. If you look at some of the Old One engineered races (Humans, Eldar, Orks, Jokaero), you'll see none of them have any similarity to tyranids.

I didn't say they created all life. Just that if they designed a good deal of life than they probably created the environments in which their creations could live. That would include things like insects, mammals, reptiles, fungi, ect. Tyranids are often refered to as "bugs" for a reason.

It also makes no sense that the Old Ones would create a race like the nids; the Old Ones wanted to guide the evolution of sentient races. Creating a race that exists only to destroy other races would be counter productive. Even Orks can be reasoned with, and they are a warrior breed.

No one truly knows the plans of the Old Ones. Again, Tyranids could be seen as some sort of failsafe. Tyranids create as they destroy and vice versa. They are no different than any other form of life in trying to survive.

Considering how tyranid psychic activity does not attract daemons or that nid spacecraft do not use to the warp to travel, it's pretty clear that they do not use the warp.

The actions of every psyker does not summon a daemon. Orks, Eldar and Dark Eldar do not use the Warp for travel. They use random hulks and the Webway respectively.

I do not recall that being implied in Xenology. Do you have an excerpt?

The picture of the stone tablet showing the Old Ones creating the various races by "singing" them into existence.

Regarding the Gods.

There are infinite daemons and possibly infinite Gods, depending the source. The big four (Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Khorne) are just the most powerful. Hell, the might not even be the most powerful, just the most well known.

Since daemons/Gods (its ambiguous when a Daemon becomes a God; presumably, as soon as it gets its first worshipper, it can start calling itself one) are powered by thoughts and emotions, the very first ones were created when the very first being made the very first thought. So, they've been around for a very long time.