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In a game with an IG player who loves his arty, we began with a night fight senario. Since in night fight you cannot see past 36" (unmodified) and he cannot fire at anything closer than 36" (indirect) can he then fire his arty at exactly 36' thereby creating a thin ring that if there is a model or veh underneath it, allow him to fire indirect/barrage without the use of spotlights etc?

If so, and his arty is squadroned, does he get to choose which barrel he aims the first shot off and then each peice can fire at the same target even though the subsquent peices either cannot see (due to nightfight) or are within thier minimum range?

Not sure if I am describing this properly.

Was this a basilisk firing?

You can fire indirectly inside minimum range, re-check your barrage rules.

It was a basy firing yes, I am not as fmailiar with IG rules as I should be but he said it had a minimum range of 36'

Barrage rules are on p34 of the rulebook, not the Guard Codex.
Check the rules for firing Indirectly in the first bullet point.

well I am in AFG at the moment, just thinking back to a dispute that was never resolved

You are describing it well enough, do not worry about that.

In the first question you have posted enough of the rules that me simply restarting them are not going to offer any more information. The weapon has a direct fire range of 36-X inches and night fighting is 36 > x inches. Should he be able to get himself into that one situation where it is exactly 36 inches, not 35.7 or 36.4, then he has a sweet spot that complies with both rules but this is going to be very difficult and rarely occur. This is because measurement is taken to and from the closest points in on the models, page 4, so he can't simply fudge it by measuring a point that is on the far end of the target. However, if he finds himself in that once in a blue moon situation I don't think anyone has grounds to prevent him from direct firing.

You would notice I have been using the term direct firing in the above example. This is because artillery pieces with a minimal range are often, and probably always but I won't go that fast, going to be using barrage rules. The rules for barrage allow two firing methods, direct and indirect. More rules covering the difference between these firing methods can be found in the barrage section of the rule book, a boxed off section on page 34 with the same title. The information you require is the very first bullet point found within this section.

The second question I am going to leave open at this point in time, because it is a very good and very difficult to answer question. Game Workshop has a problem when it comes to writing rules, they simply address the most basic situation and often over look how certain rules might interact with each other down the track. You have found one of these situations, I believe, because we have three sets of rules that are influencing the situation and how they are resolved. I am curious as to what other people will say, researching other peoples point of view often leads me to see things I overlook, so I will not provide my answer to this question just yet.

The second part of the question will be using the "Multiple Barrage" rules (also on p34) since it is a Squadron.
In this case the closest vehicle will be the "firing vehicle" and will be measured from that one.

The problem I have with that answer is simple, it doesn't take the range and limitations of the individual weapons into account which is something all weapons firing still are bound to.

The multiple barrage rule has a line along the lines of for each weapon fired you do X, so you still would still need to measure range and other limitations from each individual weapon before being able to state that they have fired as well. Now it does state the closest weapon in the barrage fires first, but there is nothing stating that the range for all other weapons is ignored if this first weapon can be fired. If the additional weapons in question do not have permission to fire, due to range limitations brought on by night fighting in this case, can they really be added to the barrage?

You are describing it well enough, do not worry about that.

In the first question you have posted enough of the rules that me simply restarting them are not going to offer any more information. The weapon has a direct fire range of 36-X inches and night fighting is 36 > x inches. Should he be able to get himself into that one situation where it is exactly 36 inches, not 35.7 or 36.4, then he has a sweet spot that complies with both rules but this is going to be very difficult and rarely occur. This is because measurement is taken to and from the closest points in on the models, page 4, so he can't simply fudge it by measuring a point that is on the far end of the target. However, if he finds himself in that once in a blue moon situation I don't think anyone has grounds to prevent him from direct firing.

You would notice I have been using the term direct firing in the above example. This is because artillery pieces with a minimal range are often, and probably always but I won't go that fast, going to be using barrage rules. The rules for barrage allow two firing methods, direct and indirect. More rules covering the difference between these firing methods can be found in the barrage section of the rule book, a boxed off section on page 34 with the same title. The information you require is the very first bullet point found within this section.

The second question I am going to leave open at this point in time, because it is a very good and very difficult to answer question. Game Workshop has a problem when it comes to writing rules, they simply address the most basic situation and often over look how certain rules might interact with each other down the track. You have found one of these situations, I believe, because we have three sets of rules that are influencing the situation and how they are resolved. I am curious as to what other people will say, researching other peoples point of view often leads me to see things I overlook, so I will not provide my answer to this question just yet.

Your response to the first part is what we ended up using (my ally had moved one of his rhinos to be exactly 36' from the barrel of the closest basy) but no one seemed very confident in that (my ally was less than pleased as 3 rounds landed on his unprotected rhino and the following rounds served to murder a number of his SMs who had been following). His argument was that since the range was 36-x and he could not see past 36, there was an indeterminantly small line that he could fire the weapon, but since it was infinitely small there could be no target that fell on that line. The counter argument was that while the line was infinitly small, it still exists and therefor, if the line passed over the base (or in this case the hull) it was a valid target.

As for the second part, the IG player sighted that since they were in a squadron, they could all fire even though only one peice was in range. The counter to that was, when dealing with a unit (my firewarriors were sighted as presidence) if the lead model was in range but all the following models were not, only the models in range could fire, even though they are one unit. Overall the dice gods decided this one in favor of the IG.

JinxDragon wrote:
The problem I have with that answer is simple, it doesn't take the range and limitations of the individual weapons into account which is something all weapons firing still are bound to.

Quite right, the ranges of the other weapons are not taken into account. All weapons in the squadron are resolved as a single multiple barrage shot.

The multiple barrage rule has a line along the lines of for each weapon fired you do X, so you still would still need to measure range and other limitations from each individual weapon before being able to state that they have fired as well. Now it does state the closest weapon in the barrage fires first, but there is nothing stating that the range for all other weapons is ignored if this first weapon can be fired. If the additional weapons in question do not have permission to fire, due to range limitations brought on by night fighting in this case, can they really be added to the barrage?

For each weapon you add another template to the shot, individual ranges really aren't used at all.

This is why I like digging a little deeper as I always find things I overlooked and feel silly afterwards, particularly when it is something that has been discussed before.

While what I stated about barrage is right in general, with only weapons able to fire are capable of being added to the multiple barrage, is correct it is not the whole picture in relation to the context of this question. On reviewing the limitations set forth under night fighting rules I noticed something interesting that I did over look, for some strange reason as it has been stated before on other threads in the past. For this reason I want to bring peoples attention to the limitation set out by night fighting on page 124, the boldest sections in particular. These limitations are only in play when it comes to picking targets, which is done by unit and not by individual models, and have no baring on the range of the individual models/weapons in question.

JinxDragon wrote:
This is why I like digging a little deeper as I always find things I overlooked and feel silly afterwards, particularly when it is something that has been discussed before.

While what I stated about barrage is right in general, with only weapons able to fire are capable of being added to the multiple barrage, is correct it is not the whole picture in relation to the context of this question. On reviewing the limitations set forth under night fighting rules I noticed something interesting that I did over look, for some strange reason as it has been stated before on other threads in the past. For this reason I want to bring peoples attention to the limitation set out by night fighting on page 124, the boldest sections in particular. These limitations are only in play when it comes to picking targets, which is done by unit and not by individual models, and have no baring on the range of the individual models/weapons in question.

AH HA! This appears to be what we overlooked

I disagree Grendel;

You would still need to meet the limitations set forth to fire the weapon before it can actually fire. As the multiple barrage rules constantly uses the word 'firing,' 'fired' or 'fires' in all sections of the rules, it can not reasonably be argued that these rules are giving you permission to ignore any limitation that would prevent you from firing a weapon. This would include the few limitations set forth on page 13 which outline what models in a unit have permission to discharge their weapons. The barrage rule does grant you permission to ignore the line of sight requirements, but nothing within these rules states you have permission to ignore range simply because one model in the unit happens to have range.

The first part of the Multiple Barrage rule:
"If a Unit fires more than one shot with the Barrage special rule, they fire together, as follows:"
So these aren't individual shots, but one attack.
The next part of the rule shows that the closest weapon is the one firing. So ranges are measure form there.
Further shots are added as extra templates to this first shot (see bullet point 2).

How do you go about calculating how many shots the unit is firing?

JinxDragon wrote:
How do you go about calculating how many shots the unit is firing?

The same way you count how many infantry with bolters are firing?

Maybe I do not get the question, can you rephrase it please.

Nope, you got the question as it was straight forward and very easy question to answer in hopes to teach Grendel's why their concept is flawed.

By his reasoning all you need is range from one weapon in a vehicle squadron for them all to have permission to fire, as long as they are using weapons with the barrage rule. Their misconception is that, as long as one barrage weapon fires, every other barrage weapon in the unit adds an additional template regardless of range and other limitations that would otherwise prevent the weapon from firing. This is based on the single line in the multiple barrage rules which states 'If a unit fires more then one....' I have been trying to prove to him that permission to fire the weapon is still required before it can have an effect on how many barrage weapons are being included in the multiple barrage rules.

I thought the simplest way I could get them to see what I keep posting was to get them to focus on answering the most basic question when it comes to how a unit fires multiple shots.

The Barrage rules do not use the same rules as the infantry firing bolters though, so the situations can not be compared.

JinxDragon wrote:
By his reasoning all you need is range from one weapon in a vehicle squadron for them all to have permission to fire, as long as they are using weapons with the barrage rule.

Yes, barrage isn't a standard method of firing, just as blasts isn't.

Their misconception is that, as long as one barrage weapon fires, every other barrage weapon in the unit adds an additional template regardless of range and other limitations that would otherwise prevent the weapon from firing.

Hold on there, I never said it could be fired if unable to do so. I said individual range isn't taken into account, only the closest model is used for range. I never said a model could fire if it is normally unable to do so.

Deathreaper;
Yes, some factors are changed because it is using blast marker instead of standard to hit methods. One of the factors that do not change in blast markers, barrage included, is how you go about calculating how many shots the unit us making with these types of weapons. You still need to have range from each individual model, or weapon in case of vehicles, before the unit has permission to include that shot in the shooting phase. As barrage takes effect after you know how many shots the unit is making, you are still bound by the rules telling you how to calculate how many shots are being taken.

Grengel;
In this case I do apologize as I believed you where trying to state that their blast markers are added to the barrage regardless if they have permission to fire or not, simply because one model in the unit is capable of firing.

JinxDragon wrote:
Deathreaper;
Yes, some factors are changed because it is using blast marker instead of standard to hit methods. One of the factors that do not change in blast markers, barrage included, is how you go about calculating how many shots the unit us making with these types of weapons. You still need to have range from each individual model, or weapon in case of vehicles, before the unit has permission to include that shot in the shooting phase. As barrage takes effect after you know how many shots the unit is making, you are still bound by the rules telling you how to calculate how many shots are being taken.

Sure, but Barrage weapons usually have ranges in the 72-120 inch area, so there is no real reason to not be able to fire the gun, as all weapons in the battery will be in range, unless you are playing on something other than a 4' by 6' table.

Yes normally this would not be a problem, but in this case, there is only one model who falls in the afore mentioned criteria (IE only one basy could draw his inifintely thin line acorss the unit they were all planning on shooting). So in this case, can the unit (3 x basy) shoot at the rhino (exactly 36' from the closest arty peice) or does the the minimum range and the night fight rules restrict the other two from firing?

taurising wrote:
Yes normally this would not be a problem, but in this case, there is only one model who falls in the afore mentioned criteria (IE only one basy could draw his inifintely thin line acorss the unit they were all planning on shooting). So in this case, can the unit (3 x basy) shoot at the rhino (exactly 36' from the closest arty peice) or does the the minimum range and the night fight rules restrict the other two from firing?

The only restriction with Night Fighting is that the unit cannot target an enemy unit more than 36" away. If you had for example a line of Devastators with the closest one being exactly 36" away from a unit of orks, the units are within 36" of each other and every model who has range (regardless of whether or not they are within 36" of the target) can fire. So in this case, since the closest model is 36" away from the target the units are within 36" and the first model could place the blast marker on an enemy model from the target unit within range of the weapon (including within minimum range).

Minimum range has no meaning anymore. Check your IG FAQ.
The firing model was in range, meaning you can shoot. The other three contribute shots just fine.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Minimum range has no meaning anymore. Check your IG FAQ.

I wouldn't say it has no meaning, but certainly less meaning than in 5th.
Also it's a change in the barrage rules, not the Codex. Or was there an FAQ I'm overlooking?

 Happyjew wrote:

taurising wrote:
Yes normally this would not be a problem, but in this case, there is only one model who falls in the afore mentioned criteria (IE only one basy could draw his inifintely thin line acorss the unit they were all planning on shooting). So in this case, can the unit (3 x basy) shoot at the rhino (exactly 36' from the closest arty peice) or does the the minimum range and the night fight rules restrict the other two from firing?

The only restriction with Night Fighting is that the unit cannot target an enemy unit more than 36" away. If you had for example a line of Devastators with the closest one being exactly 36" away from a unit of orks, the units are within 36" of each other and every model who has range (regardless of whether or not they are within 36" of the target) can fire. So in this case, since the closest model is 36" away from the target the units are within 36" and the first model could place the blast marker on an enemy model from the target unit within range of the weapon (including within minimum range).

This is correct.

The distance between units is measured from the closest models.

If the closest tank was exactly 36 inches away, then the whole unit gets to shoot if the target unit is withing the range of the shooting units weapons.