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 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
The thing is, even a Sub optimal Tau list is going to do more or less the same thing. Shoot.

This. Tau only seem "overpowered" to you because the Tau codex is entirely dedicated to shooting. Even a "casual" player who just brings "cool" or "fluffy" units is pretty much guaranteed to build an army that has a unified strategy of "shoot from a distance until you win", which gives them a significant advantage over a marine codex where picking a bunch of random units probably gives you a mix of strategies without any unified plan. This doesn't mean that Tau are overpowered, it just means that it's a little easier to accomplish the bare minimum of list optimization and a lot easier to avoid common newbie traps.

XenosTerminus wrote:
It had a good amount of long range shooting, support, things to deal with infantry in cover, assault elements, etc. All of the units themselves may not be what is considered competitive or optimal, but from a marine perspective it had tools to deal with a wide range of targets.

And that's the problem. You have shooting units, assault units, drop pods, and no coherent plan. You don't have enough of a drop pod alpha strike to do much more than send your units to their deaths ASAP, you don't have enough shooting to win a shooting war, and you don't have enough assault to force your way through shooting + JSJ + overwatch + meatshields and successfully assault anything. You have no threat saturation to overwhelm your opponent's counters in any aspect of the game, all you can do is pray they didn't bring a focused list.

A list like mine would be just fine against an opponent who didn't bring their A game so to speak

We're not talking about A games, to compete with that list you pretty much have to have your opponent bring their F game. The fact that some of your opponents have previously used equally bad battleforce armies doesn't change the fact that your problems with Tau have way more to do with your poor list building choices than how powerful the Tau codex is.

XenosTerminus,
Balanced doesn't mean randomly picking things from a codex and slapping them together. It means having the ability to handle many threats instead of building a skew list via spamming.
You attack others opinions and cite your own as fact. This is hypocrisy at its finest.
I mean, you are having issues with an MC and have A plasma gun.
Uno.

Your dev squad has never been a good choice in any edition. Plasma cannons want to target heavy infantry while launchers want to target tanks or light infantry (krak vs frag, respectively)

2 whirlwinds? One of the worst tanks in the game since its inception...and you run 2...?

Please explain how your list is in any way, shape, or form balanced. I've been playing since 3rd, have played 2nd, necronmunda, and all the other things that give me crazy neck beardage, and I am just not seeing it.

They may seem a little abrasive and definitely aren't telling you want you want to hear, but these guys really are trying to help you out against us tau players.

It comes down to focus, which your army seems to lack. Most TaC lists have a plan centered around melee, shooting, or some form of midfield hold objective type plan. Now if they are all shooty they bring different guns to be TaC. If they focus on melee then they might bring different squads for their different targets.

What your list is doing is sending your troops to their death one squad ar a time it seems with only 1 or 2 really strong hitters. Well as a tau player I'm gonna shoot the scariest thing down first. If you only have 1 scary unit then its not your opponents fault that you lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to mention Tau's biggest win or lose button is target priority. If we pick the right tar gets first we excel. If we pick a wrong target though we can crumble extremely easily. Give your buddy a much harder time pickin the right target out of the bunch and your games will go smoother. I hope. good luck fighting the greater good!

I play my IG against Tau a LOT. My buddy who plays Tau is also a mathhammer/board game wizard and I tend to lose board games in general a lot. That being said, all of our games end up being fairly even unless he tailors his list to destroy mine or vice versa. It's really just a matter of choosing a well balanced army and knowing your own tactics. Something that really helped me was pouring over the codex and making about 50 different lists for 750 points. It's few enough points to make you really consider your list, yet enough points that you can realistically include most units in your army.

Tau gunline is very similar to the IG Blowjobber lists from a couple years back, only worse. At a fairly major tournament I went to last weekend there was a kid there that I considered a little slow. He literally sat there with a goofy grin on his face, set up his Tau gunline (minimally painted) and blasted everyone off the table. His list played itself (it was obvious his dad put everything together and made him go). I just looked on and laughed.

I think one of the problems is tau lists are easy to make. A really good list will need testing and balancing and what not but for the most part tau have the fewest choices of units of any of the codices and only two of those units are bad. So if I slap together 1500pts or so of suits, troops and marker lights chances are my list is going to be very good. Whats more, all my units will be on the same game plan, shoot the hell out of everything. If you were to go to any other codex and just slap together units you would have a mix of ranged and melee, lots of sup par choices and a few good choices.

Seriously try to make a list with any HQ but Aun'shi and any fast attack but vespid. Maybe cut out stealth suits too, but they actually aren't that bad. The only way you can make a bad list is if you take too much wargear on your tanks or make bad support system choices. Just putting the minimal effort into list building, like making sure you have anti-infantry and anti-tank, is more than enough to make a reasonable list.

Tau is also one of the most adaptable armies out there able to deal with just about anything. This means it is really easy for tau to change to fit a local meta and easily come out on top.

Please don't misunderstand. I do appreciate advice.

The issue is far too many people (not just here) offer very little constructive criticism. Most of the responses have been very rude.

I can look into optimizing my list. I see that point. The issue is that for everyone, they might not be able to do that with their collection. I mentioned this before, but not everybody has access to limitless or exactly what they need to be 'competitive'. The majority of people that play this game are not those that regular forums or attend tournaments- they are casuals, who generally play with the models they own/like. They don't pour through books and look for the absolute best synergy, cheapest options, or what the meta deems to be the best.

Please keep this in mind when you reply and provide feedback. Not one comment addressed how I could have potentially dealt with the Tau list based on WHAT I TOOK. And if I simply cannot because Tau lists, even basic ones, pick apart unfocussed lists (based on the principal of everything just shoots you to hell thus has autopilot synergy)- I may not be able to control much.

XenosTerminus wrote:
I can look into optimizing my list. I see that point. The issue is that for everyone, they might not be able to do that with their collection. I mentioned this before, but not everybody has access to limitless or exactly what they need to be 'competitive'. The majority of people that play this game are not those that regular forums or attend tournaments- they are casuals, who generally play with the models they own/like. They don't pour through books and look for the absolute best synergy, cheapest options, or what the meta deems to be the best.

Yes, and this has nothing to do with the Tau. Balance in 40k is awful, and it's very easy to buy a random collection of models that has no real hope of winning games. And yes, that's a very bad thing. But it has been like that since long before the Tau codex, and will almost certainly continue to be like that for the foreseeable future even if new armies come out that are better than Tau.

Please keep this in mind when you reply and provide feedback. Not one comment addressed how I could have potentially dealt with the Tau list based on WHAT I TOOK.

That's because what you took is an unfocused mess. Sometimes lists are just so bad that they have no real hope of winning no matter what you do in the game, and all you can do is learn from your mistakes and make a better list next time.

And if I simply cannot because Tau lists, even basic ones, pick apart unfocussed lists (based on the principal of everything just shoots you to hell thus has autopilot synergy)- I may not be able to control much.

What you can control is your own list. Yes, the Tau "always shoot" strategy makes it easier to avoid newbie traps and make a list that doesn't completely suck, but we're talking about newbie traps here, not optimizing the last 1% of your tournament list. You need to at least take the most basic steps to bringing a good list of your own before you can complain about how overpowered other armies are.

XenosTerminus wrote:
Please keep this in mind when you reply and provide feedback. Not one comment addressed how I could have potentially dealt with the Tau list based on WHAT I TOOK. And if I simply cannot because Tau lists, even basic ones, pick apart unfocussed lists (based on the principal of everything just shoots you to hell thus has autopilot synergy)- I may not be able to control much.

Then please at least tell us what is in your collection so we can at the very least make comments based on that (I say this as a DA and a Tau player).

I can just see the Battle brother Tau and Spess Mahrens going for a team up.

My chaos and orks are so stuffed...

XenosTerminus wrote:Well that's refreshing. Being told that the list you took is absolute crap and your unit choices are 'bad'. That's what is wrong with this game.

like it or lump it, that's how it is, and that's how its always been. there are such things as "good lists", and there are such things as "bad lists". we're just being honest about it. how is it "wrong" to discuss this, and to analyse why?

XenosTerminus wrote:

I am still convinced that the internal balance for this game is atrocious. If you can't bring a relatively balanced list and expect to do at least decently against another army without catering your choices (you basically told me to spam things to help kill the riptide, or avoid things because they aren't 'optimal'.

Really that's the crux of it. GW has made it so that anyone that pages through a codex, spams what is optimal or the best, and shows up to random games will curb stomp people that just take what is in their collection or what they enjoy (from the same codexes).

It's infinitely frustrating as a casual player, I hope you realize that.

Yes?

And so what? With respect, you're making it sound like this is something brand new, that this lousy internal balance thing is somehow new, and sprung upon us with no warning. this observation isn't new! simple fact of the matter is 40k has always been like this. internal/external balance is atrocious (but it was ok when tau were terrible in fifth, i'd warrant ) "spam the optimal" is how 40k has always been. this isn't a new observation. And frankly, there is no reason to be so melodramatic and shocked by it. Nor is there any reason to be so dismissive, or defensive about what is quite simply common advice in this game.

If you want to randomly put things on to the board, its a simple fact that you need to be prepared for the consequences against someone who has optimised things. "casual" doesn't come in to it. "casual" is an attitude. what youre doing is something different. you are implying you don't want to step up. that somehow, you are entitled to win, just with what you have. and im sorry to shatter your illusions here, but that's not how wargames work. Just like sports, you don't just "win", you have to have the right tools and training.

XenosTerminus wrote:I said relatively balanced- and try not to sound so arrogant with a definitive description on what is or is not 'balanced'. That is your opinion.

It had a good amount of long range shooting, support, things to deal with infantry in cover, assault elements, etc. All of the units themselves may not be what is considered competitive or optimal, but from a marine perspective it had tools to deal with a wide range of targets.

A list like mine would be just fine against an opponent who didn't bring their A game so to speak. The issue is that even when Tau doesn't bring an optimal list (he didn't) I still struggle. I was very successful in 5th edition and before Tau, even with lists like that.

and his opinion is right. arrogance doesn't come into it. "balanced" can be defines multiple ways - to me "balanced" implies being able to deal with a variety of threats. can you deal with heavy armour? can you deal with light armour? MEQ? TEQ? GEQ? can you deal with flyers? the mechanics of how you go about doing this are up to you. you can be entirely armoured and be "balanced", you can be entirely "close range dakka" and still be "balanced". you seem to be assuming a "balanced list" is a "cross representation of the units of that list". which is a random assortment of stuff. your lists have a lot of excess, and poor internal synnergies. It wont do well against a lot of B or C lists, let alone A lists.

the fact you struggle against tau is a lot less to do with tau, and a lot more to do with sub optimal choices on your part. harsh? yes. true? yes.

XenosTerminus wrote:Please don't misunderstand. I do appreciate advice.

The issue is far too many people (not just here) offer very little constructive criticism. Most of the responses have been very rude.
.

For someone so appreciative of advice, you've been horribly dismissive of that very advice offered to you, and extremely condescending to others replying to you with a different POV. You not liking the answer doesn't change what the answer is.

And "rude"? im sorry, but I take huge issues with this. Please, don't confuse "honesty" with "rudeness". with respect, you are the one who has been saying things like "People like you ruin this hobby." And worse. Regarding the "constructive criticism" comment - I always find that one funny. people have been going out of their way explaining to you what works and what doesn't. and why. really, that cant do any more. what kind of "constructive criticism" are you looking for? you cant turn a donkey into a racehorse. And you cant offer any magical solutions to turn a sub par list into a competitive one. that's simply not how this game works. constructive criticism is honest criticism - its helping you improve. and they've done that. they've told you about what you have and how it doesn't work, and they've told you about the tools avaialabe to you, and tactics from this that will bring you up to par.

however, if your definition of "constructive criticism" is"saying nice things about what you have, for the sake of it", or "mindlessly agreeing with your skewed view of tau OPness" then im sorry, but we cannot help you there.

XenosTerminus wrote:
I can look into optimizing my list. I see that point. The issue is that for everyone, they might not be able to do that with their collection. I mentioned this before, but not everybody has access to limitless or exactly what they need to be 'competitive'. The majority of people that play this game are not those that regular forums or attend tournaments- they are casuals, who generally play with the models they own/like. They don't pour through books and look for the absolute best synergy, cheapest options, or what the meta deems to be the best.

Please keep this in mind when you reply and provide feedback. Not one comment addressed how I could have potentially dealt with the Tau list based on WHAT I TOOK. And if I simply cannot because Tau lists, even basic ones, pick apart unfocussed lists (based on the principal of everything just shoots you to hell thus has autopilot synergy)- I may not be able to control much.

its a sad truth, but you are not simply "entitled" to win, just because you have X in your collection. there is no way around it. that isn't to say your "factions" cannot win - they can. they have the tools.
you have the answer, and you know what to do. its a start, and its a good, positive starting point. whether you like the answers or not is irrelevant. the answers are unchanging. whether you take the advice or not-for whatever reasons- is entirely on you. but bear in mind, should you not, and should you keep losing to tau, its on your head. its not because tau are OP. its because you chose not to evolve your play to deal with them. if you have the tools that will bring you up to par, and you choose not to use them, then you cant really blame the other guy for a sub par gameplan/performance on your part

alternatively, try another game

XenosTerminus wrote:Please don't misunderstand. I do appreciate advice.

The issue is far too many people (not just here) offer very little constructive criticism. Most of the responses have been very rude.

I can look into optimizing my list. I see that point. The issue is that for everyone, they might not be able to do that with their collection. I mentioned this before, but not everybody has access to limitless or exactly what they need to be 'competitive'. The majority of people that play this game are not those that regular forums or attend tournaments- they are casuals, who generally play with the models they own/like. They don't pour through books and look for the absolute best synergy, cheapest options, or what the meta deems to be the best.

Please keep this in mind when you reply and provide feedback. Not one comment addressed how I could have potentially dealt with the Tau list based on WHAT I TOOK. And if I simply cannot because Tau lists, even basic ones, pick apart unfocussed lists (based on the principal of everything just shoots you to hell thus has autopilot synergy)- I may not be able to control much.

First off are you aware that your thread is entitled; "Why Tau has gone too far"? How does this thread title lend itself to constructive criticism on how to use a list against a Tau list? Then you are looking for tactical advice with a singular list against a generalized Tau list with a minimal write up of the game.

Firstly if this is your entire collection of models you need to play smaller point level games. This will allow you to field a good balanced list with the models you own. Post your collection and what you need help with in the list building forum with a title that doesn't say, "I want to complain about Tau" and you will get more constructive advice.

You actually have gotten some reasonable advice. Notice people who were fighting earlier in the thread are all in agreement on what your problem is. Your list is a very poorly balanced list by any measurement. Your units do not have clear purposes, you do not have a broad selection of the codex, you do not have a plan to deal with any threat. Look at your "I was in control" moment. You controlled a zone around objectives rather than controlling the opponents position or inflicting real damage to the opponent. This is bad against any shooting list as they do not depend on being near the objectives for winning. They kill you and move onto the objectives in turn 5. You should have had the Tau opponent cornered so they had no board room to maneuver. Your current list lacks mobility and durability...it also lack firepower...so with the tools you have at this point level you struggle.

In the current thread you cannot even find your army list without searching. This is a very bad sign for actually getting advice.

All right, I will bite. If it is in fact the list, what is your opinion of a good DA list?

I can see if I have the resources to actually pool one together.

Let me reiterate something I mentioned before, however. I have actually had success against pretty much every opponent in our casual play group/club with these 'terrible' lists. Are my opponents constantly bringing tournament worthy lists? No. But they are all not bringing terrible lists either. I have been struggling against Tau the most, which is why the previous comment about how it is hard to bring a 'bad'' Tau list, and that it punishes 'bad' lists more so than a lot of other books, that is part of my issue with Tau.

They are the my Achilles heal for casual non-serious lists.

Quoting not working? Anyway:

" 2x Whirlwind

Another bucket full of naff. I'd take either..."

And I have been told that one of the answers against Tau are Whirlwinds

XenosTerminus wrote:
All right, I will bite. If it is in fact the list, what is your opinion of a good DA list?

The problem is that when we are not talking about tournaments, a discussion about what is "good" is kinda useless.
Every playgroup is different and has different stuff, so we can't even say that things are bad.
Our Tau-player brings one Riptide, while the Tau in another group might bring three to a casual game.
Our Necron-player brings Flayed Ones and he is successful because we field 'random units with a theme/synergy' instead of 'spamming good units'.
My own Necron list has only taken Canoptek Wraiths once to a game, because I have many other units I prefer in a 1500pnt-game.
Our Chaos-player doesn't even own a Helldrake, so yeah..

People might say that a Whirlwind is bad, and they might be right.
And if two Whirlwinds make you win the game in your meta, that means it is a good unit for you.

My Blood Angels have weak, average and a few good units.
But the weak units in a Tau-codex are good units compared to my average.
So that means that if I want to beat a weak/average-Tau army, I need to bring my best units and I need to stay away from my beloved Sanguinary Guard.
I really WANT to bring my Sanguinary Guard, but it only takes one Riptide to kill them all with a single shot.

The "Tau-problem" that many people are talking about is that even when you try to be as weak as possible, you will probably annihilate an average Codex "X"-list.
That means that one Tau-player in a playgroup already changes the entire metagame, people don't like that.
It's why I actually stopped collecting a Tau-army, because I know that it will ruin the fun of everyone else in our group.

I made a 2k Drop Pod list I think would work well in this edition for you.

HQ

Belial with TH/SS

Elites

Company Veterans - 7x Combi-Plasma, drop pod

Troops

Tactical Squad x10, MM, PG drop pod

Tactical Squad x10, MM, PG drop pod

Scout Squad with sniper rifles (home objective campers)

Deathwing Terminator Squad - 2x Plasma Cannons, 5 TH/SS, 10 Men

Fast Attack

Assault Squad with JP's exchanged for drop pod, 2x Flamer, Combi Flamer

Assault Squad with JP's exchanged for drop pod, 2x Flamer, Combi Flamer

Heavy Support

Tri-Las Predator

Tri-Las Predator

Tri-Las Predator

With this list you can reliably kill two Riptides a turn, or destroy his armored vehicles without breaking a sweat. You can shove 11 Terminators anywhere on the board without scatter turn 1 or 2 and either make them an immovable object on an objective or make them an unavoidable threat by shoving them in front of his lines.

Your Tactical squads and Assault Squads can deal with hordes and dug in Firewarriors, as well as wipe scoring units off objectives and take them themselves. Unless you roll incredibly poorly for scatter or he has multiple effective interceptor weapons your opponent cannot do anything to stop your alpha strike.

Kangodo wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:
All right, I will bite. If it is in fact the list, what is your opinion of a good DA list?

The problem is that when we are not talking about tournaments, a discussion about what is "good" is kinda useless.
Every playgroup is different and has different stuff, so we can't even say that things are bad.
Our Tau-player brings one Riptide, while the Tau in another group might bring three to a casual game.
Our Necron-player brings Flayed Ones and he is successful because we field 'random units with a theme/synergy' instead of 'spamming good units'.
My own Necron list has only taken Canoptek Wraiths once to a game, because I have many other units I prefer in a 1500pnt-game.
Our Chaos-player doesn't even own a Helldrake, so yeah..

People might say that a Whirlwind is bad, and they might be right.
And if two Whirlwinds make you win the game in your meta, that means it is a good unit for you.

My Blood Angels have weak, average and a few good units.
But the weak units in a Tau-codex are good units compared to my average.
So that means that if I want to beat a weak/average-Tau army, I need to bring my best units and I need to stay away from my beloved Sanguinary Guard.
I really WANT to bring my Sanguinary Guard, but it only takes one Riptide to kill them all with a single shot.

The "Tau-problem" that many people are talking about is that even when you try to be as weak as possible, you will probably annihilate an average Codex "X"-list.
That means that one Tau-player in a playgroup already changes the entire metagame, people don't like that.
It's why I actually stopped collecting a Tau-army, because I know that it will ruin the fun of everyone else in our group.

Thank you for this post- it is the first post that made me say 'he gets it'.

That is the issue. We play casually with generally units we either just own or enjoy. We like variety, as it makes for more interesting and variable games. While I realize I could bring very focused and specific lists to combat Tau, that is not how we generally do things.

It is not uncommon for us to plan for an evening of 40k and just pick a points value. The only knowledge we will have about our potential opponent is simply what codexes they own. We don't typically disclose what army we will be playing. With that in mind, we tend to create lists that do a little bit of everything, or thematic lists. This has not been an issue since the new Tau book came out.

Our Tau player has basically smashed everyone to pieces regardless of what he brings. Could we all bring specific lists to combat Tau? Of course- and if he doesn't bring Tau that week our list may be terrible against his other armies. That is the point here. It's a book that excels at what 6e favors and is generally failproof against most things- it's a horrendously unfun book from a casual perspective.

Well if you bring crappy casual unfocused lists that don't know what to do and expect to beat a list that is designed to shoot you off the board and as Peregrine says, 'has a coherent strategy' of course they're going to have an advantage.

The Tau Codex is well written in that 90% of the units in it are worth taking- I'd say only about 60-70% of the units in Dark Angels are worth taking. This is why he can bring a number of effective lists.

Its like the equivalent of you bringing a block of Swordsmen, Crossbowmen and Knights while your opponent brings varying types of Muskets and Cannon, and you're being surprised that you can't win.

Your crossbows aren't as shooty as their muskets, your Swordsmen are prone to their cannon elements and your Knights can't turn the tide on their own.

Again, demonstrating my point about Tau and casual fun. The entire book is designed to do that regardless of what you take.

It's auto pilot and lacks diverse list creation. He has brought multiple lists every week that all play the same. It's boring, lacks creativity, and by the nature of how the book was designed goes against the principal of how we play casually.

You can reply saying how 'unfocussed and crappy' my/any list is until the Sun implodes. I get it. You don't like the list and only analyze this game from a competitive standpoint. Fine, you win. I am terrible at this game, lack proper list creating skill and am playing for all the wrong reasons (to win, of course!).

The fundamental point of all of these conversations was always how Tau is not fun to play against, and how casual players struggle against them. They are the quintessential Win-more army of this edition so far, hence why they gak all over casual principles.

The "Tau-problem" that many people are talking about is that even when you try to be as weak as possible, you will probably annihilate an average Codex "X"-list.

Kind of a proves that making "average" list is both waste of money and probably not the wisest thing to do. People shouldn't play bad armies or bad codex and if they like some models which have bad rules, why not use counts as ? Sang guard is weak , then play them as space wolfs or grey knights or even tau . Scouts as normal fire warriors , baal as a long strike hammer head , Sang guard as crisis suits and the new sm centurions as broadsides. You can even add a Riptide by using a Dreadknight model . The army will have all the feathery marine feels and be good on the table.

Thank you!
I understand this problem because we had this too with MtG. I will explain how that went and you should just imagine that the colours are codices if you don't understand how the game works. Decks are like army-lists and cards are like units:

Everyone had fun with their own decks and then the colour black got a cheap powerful card that every black deck had to use.
The colour white had the best answer to it, so they brought their big guns to counter it.
Blue, red and green where in the middle of a nuclear war and had to step their game up.
Within half a year the game went from: "Eating snacks, smoking cigarettes and drinking beer." to highly competitive matches that weren't relaxing and enjoyable.

Mr.Omega posted a good DA-list there, it will do quite well against Tau Empire!
The only 'problem' with that list is that it would totally annihilate every other player.

Many groups don't just play with a pre-decided point value, they also play with a pre-decided powerlevel.
And no matter what a Tau-player does, his powerlevel is so high that it 'forces' me to take a tournament list if I want a fair and fun game.
I don't want to buy 40 ASM, 4 Razorbacks and some Predators just to prevent him from winning in turn 1.
Nor do I want to buy an additional 12 Wraiths, 3 Nightscythes and one Annihilation Barge so I can win against Tau.
Because if I do that, I will automatically win against the other lists and I force them to do the same.

In my groups I prefer to balance my lists to the opponent.
If I play against our new Ork player with only a limited amount of models, I will 'weaken' my list so both of us can have fun; Tau can't do that.

Wait. So when you were playing in 5th ed you didn't buy razorbacks for your BAs and wraihts , scyths and AB weren't the first models you bought for your necron. What else could you buy for your armies . 5th ed Blood Angels were razorspam all the way and both the 5th ed and 6th ed necron were using wraiths. The storm raven alone and the leaks about flyer rules in 5th ed , should have made you buy scyths in advance.

I can't even imagine what other stuff you could buy for a 1500 lists.

How about models I like?
It's a modelling game first, a beer and pretzels game second and somewhere in the last spot is it a competitive game.

I have almost 6000 points in Crons, but only 7 Wraiths, one flyer and 2 Barges.
The rest are Monoliths, warriors, scarabs, triarch stalker, etc, etc.
It might be hard to understand for some people, but (pre-Tau) it can be fun to make up army-lists with any units from the codex and just battle each other.

XenosTerminus wrote:
Again, demonstrating my point about Tau and casual fun. The entire book is designed to do that regardless of what you take.

It's auto pilot and lacks diverse list creation. He has brought multiple lists every week that all play the same. It's boring, lacks creativity, and by the nature of how the book was designed goes against the principal of how we play casually.

You can reply saying how 'unfocussed and crappy' my/any list is until the Sun implodes. I get it. You don't like the list and only analyze this game from a competitive standpoint. Fine, you win. I am terrible at this game, lack proper list creating skill and am playing for all the wrong reasons (to win, of course!).

The fundamental point of all of these conversations was always how Tau is not fun to play against, and how casual players struggle against them. They are the quintessential Win-more army of this edition so far, hence why they gak all over casual principles.

Its perfectly possible to bring a focused, casual list with Marines. Your problem is that you mix everything together in a paste that doesn't work - your strategy is incoherent. It doesn't take a barrel of braincells and the entirety of the world rocket scientific community to keep to a strategy with a list.

For instance, create a casual line up of Tactical Marines, close combat power armor veterans, whatever you want to handicap yourself with, then give them all drop pods. Thats by no means a competitive list or even a tournament list, but it'll sure as hell work against Tau.

Change the thread title to Why GW has gone too far.

Seem odd to blame a fictional creation for apparent woes.

I can sympathize with the OP to a certain degree but you seem hung up on the Tau. is this a symptom of being jaded with 40k in general? (being that its a poorly balanced creaking mess). And I say that as fan of 40k albeit having stepped back for some time.

Kangodo wrote:

It might be hard to understand for some people, but (pre-Tau) it can be fun to make up army-lists with any units from the codex and just battle each other.

Cute. You do realize that 5th was criminally worse about balance, every codex(barring nids) one-upping the other to almost Super-Sayian levels of Nonsense each book, right?

I remember when one guy ran Paladin/Purifier GK and Sang Guard/Death company BA in my group and, funny enough, the only one that could beat either of his lists was me and my old 4th Edition Tau.

Now the new books are pretty balanced against one another and the older books suffer because they were written with old rules in mind.

However, even if I were to pin the name of every tau unit on a dartboard and pick what units I used by throwing darts, I would never get a CC list. I would without a doubt get a list focused on shooting 100% of the time with Tau.

You don't need THE MOST OPTIMAL LIST EVAR!!!111!11! You need a list with a goal. A plan. What do you want to do? Hold Objectives? shoot? drop from the sky in tin cans? Assault? something else?

Then from there all you do is make that work better. You can do that without making a Tourney list and if your group is all having trouble with the Tau, then when they see you beat them with a list with an Actual plan in mind( or even give the guy a run for his money), They just might learn from what you did and follow suit.

Kangodo wrote:
How about models I like?
It's a modelling game first, a beer and pretzels game second and somewhere in the last spot is it a competitive game.

I have almost 6000 points in Crons, but only 7 Wraiths, one flyer and 2 Barges.
The rest are Monoliths, warriors, scarabs, triarch stalker, etc, etc.
It might be hard to understand for some people, but (pre-Tau) it can be fun to make up army-lists with any units from the codex and just battle each other.

Ok , but if you collect models not to game , but just to own them , why do you care about losing ?

Did you miss the part where I said it's also a game?
The competitive play is just much less important.

He cares about his gaming group? I know the feeling and wrote about it in another thread. To recap, we have 6 player's in our group, having fun games with non optimal armies (orks, tau, ba, sm, eldar, necron). Previously anyone could win our minitournaments, but not anymore. With the same models our Tau player doesn't even have to try so hard to win. From my perspective the new Tau do feel somewhat over the top.

Naw wrote:
He cares about his gaming group? I know the feeling and wrote about it in another thread. To recap, we have 6 player's in our group, having fun games with non optimal armies (orks, tau, ba, sm, eldar, necron). Previously anyone could win our minitournaments, but not anymore. With the same models our Tau player doesn't even have to try so hard to win. From my perspective the new Tau do feel somewhat over the top.

Ban tau from participating in your mini tourneys, everyones happy.............oh.