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I remember GK players making similar claims in 5th
Necrons making similar claims in 6th
Chaos making similar claims with the 3.5 dex (which, to be fair, had 2 overpowered builds as compared to everyone else's one)
Eldar making similar claims in 3rd (claiming table quarters last turn and hiding all game? How was this fun?)

Just the fact these posts exist, and go on for more than 5+ pages, should be a sign that something is wrong.

Akiasura wrote:
I remember GK players making similar claims in 5th
Necrons making similar claims in 6th
Chaos making similar claims with the 3.5 dex (which, to be fair, had 2 overpowered builds as compared to everyone else's one)
Eldar making similar claims in 3rd (claiming table quarters last turn and hiding all game? How was this fun?)

Just the fact these posts exist, and go on for more than 5+ pages, should be a sign that something is wrong.

Amen.

Akiasura wrote:
I remember GK players making similar claims in 5th
Necrons making similar claims in 6th
Chaos making similar claims with the 3.5 dex (which, to be fair, had 2 overpowered builds as compared to everyone else's one)
Eldar making similar claims in 3rd (claiming table quarters last turn and hiding all game? How was this fun?)

Just the fact these posts exist, and go on for more than 5+ pages, should be a sign that something is wrong.

And what exactly is wrong? The fact that people are complaining about an army or that there must be something wrong with the army because people are complaining about said army?

The latter

Akiasura wrote:
The latter

Not really. People whine about everything when it comes to 40k. Ever hear the joke that a Group of 40k players is known as a whine of 40k players?It's not necessarily a measure of anything. A huge amount of this thread has been extremely good advice as to how to deal with Tau, and a lit of points pointing out how their supposed op-ness is overblown.

I noticed a distinct lack of whining regarding the DA codex and CSM codex, outside of drakes. Even with the noise marine buff, you still don't see it.
Eldar also don't seem to have many OP threads, despite the wave serpent being considered the best tank in the game.

I don't know how you can say that a massive post count claiming a book is OP isn't a sign that the book is op. By which other standard should we judge it by?


Edit;
I never heard that joke before, but I can see how it fits. I have never seen someone throw 300 dollars worth of toys across a public place until I saw IG vendetta spam, so this certainly isn't the most mature group I've come across

Akiasura wrote:
The latter

Fair enough. But if you look at the arguments about said army and the units in question. The issue is more of a child seeing that their friend got a shiny new toy and now he wants to either A) Degrade said toy so that it looses its luster or B) complain about said toy until they themselves get a shiny toy of their own.

Honestly every argument that has come up so far about the new Tau codex can easily be explained and has been explained by numerous people in this thread as why it is not as OP as the original post states. Unfortunately the complaints will always be louder than the compliments and in this case dealing with the internet there is going to be an over abundance of complaints. Is the Riptide a pain in the behind? Perhaps. But keep in mind that each army has several nuances and benefits that could be argued as OP. Necrons with their regenerative abilities, Imperial Guard with their super cheap Vendettas, Chaos Space Marines with their Helldrake's. The funny thing is there are counters to all of these things, and amazingly enough said counters can be found in either your codex or with the aid of the new allies rule that was introduced with 6th edition.

Another argument is that one now has to change their list to the point of loosing it's original character and they do not think this should happen. Well unfortunately tabletop war-gaming is a evolving beast of it's own and as editions come and go and new army rules are released changes no matter how one feels about them are bound to happen. Is this the fault of the codex in general? Perhaps this is the fault of GW in wanting to expand how their game is played with the changes in the rules. This in no way is the fault of the people that play said codex which quite honestly is not an overly powerful cheese monstrosity that this thread has made it out to be.

Perhaps my local meta is one of rainbows and unicorns and chocolate water because honestly Tau has yet to make a sweeping in any of our normal games. They are not some super over powered horribly ruled army that beats everything in it's path. Or possibly a more logical rational reason can be found. Perhaps my local meta has seen what the Tau army can bring to the table and have made the needed changes to make what so many on this thread are claiming as an unbeatable powerhouse really just another army with a few new toys that can still be taken down with sound tactics and strategy.

Reactionary people will always blame the unit and will always complain about how it is not their fault. Calm minded Generals will see the unit for what it is and counter accordingly.

This is a game of objectives and missions as well as bad dice rolls and stupid good luck that can be edged and guided with tactics and strategy. This game has never and for the foreseeable future ever been one with the new codex means automatic power creep and horrible death and disaster to anything older than it.

This whole thread was started because the OPs wayyyyy out of date black templar got crushed by his opponent who was cheating by basically not using tokens with markerlights (once a markerlight hit, every Tau unit shooting that turn was able to get +BS/remove cover against that target).

This topic is now just dragging on because of riptides. 1 riptide isn't a big deal, 2 is annoying, 3 OKAY fine 3 is a bit too strong for some armies to handle. However, the same goes for 3 hell drakes, 3 annihilation barges, 3 vendettas, 3 wraithknights (although many pts), etc.

40k isn't designed for ultra competitive play. Some armies no mater how hard you try will never be as good as others because that isn't the point.

If you spam 3+ riptides - you are just a FotM Tau player and I disown you - you are just giving the rest of us a bad name by pissing off all the cry babies.

They went to far when your only option is to try and get your guys in close combat while they nuke you from orbit.

Akiasura wrote:
I noticed a distinct lack of whining regarding the DA codex and CSM codex, outside of drakes. Even with the noise marine buff, you still don't see it.
Eldar also don't seem to have many OP threads, despite the wave serpent being considered the best tank in the game.

I don't know how you can say that a massive post count claiming a book is OP isn't a sign that the book is op. By which other standard should we judge it by?


Edit;
I never heard that joke before, but I can see how it fits. I have never seen someone throw 300 dollars worth of toys across a public place until I saw IG vendetta spam, so this certainly isn't the most mature group I've come across

A lot of people complaining about the new Tau codex either do not like markerlights, do not like the riptide or have played against a Tau player that has misused markerlights and has trounced all who come before them.

The issue a lot of people have is that the new Tau codex is not the old Tau codex and therefore it is over powered. Honestly the book is balanced, and has synergy. Because it has synergy and the units rely on each other they must be overpowered. If you look at this so called massive post count claiming the book is OP look at how many of the people complaining that are the same few people. Now realize that if for example 5-6 people are complaining about something a lot it might look massive but it is only 5 or 6 people with a lot of the same things to say without listening to the counter arguments presented by the Tau Generals in this thread. That sounds like a handful of grumpy people making a massive issue over nothing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MMJ24 wrote:
They went to far when your only option is to try and get your guys in close combat while they nuke you from orbit.

And when they nuke you from orbit they cannot fire the following turn... Yeah super over powered there.

Flying Toaster wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
I noticed a distinct lack of whining regarding the DA codex and CSM codex, outside of drakes. Even with the noise marine buff, you still don't see it.
Eldar also don't seem to have many OP threads, despite the wave serpent being considered the best tank in the game.

I don't know how you can say that a massive post count claiming a book is OP isn't a sign that the book is op. By which other standard should we judge it by?


Edit;
I never heard that joke before, but I can see how it fits. I have never seen someone throw 300 dollars worth of toys across a public place until I saw IG vendetta spam, so this certainly isn't the most mature group I've come across

A lot of peoples complaining about the new Tau codex either do not like markerlights, do not like the riptide or have played against a Tau player that has misused markerlights and has trounced all who come before them.

The issue a lot of people have is that the new Tau codex is not the old Tau codex and therefore it is over powered. Honestly the book is balanced, and has synergy. Because it has synergy and the units rely on each other they must be overpowered. If you look at this so called massive post count claiming the book is OP look at how many of the people complaining that are the same few people. Now realize that if for example 5-6 people are complaining about something a lot it might look massive but it is only 5 or 6 people with a lot of the same things to say without listening to the counter arguments presented by the Tau Generals in this thread. That sounds like a handful of grumpy people making a massive issue over nothing.

I agree with the above and I feel like a big issue is that many Tau players are getting zero credit for their major asset - maybe we know what the hell we are doing?

Personally for 8 years I had to fight tooth and nail with an extremely limited tool box to pull of a minor victory against "newer codices" who's players could practically faceroll their strategy and still beat me. Now Tau actually have everything they had before with some updated mechanics and pt costs that make units actually accessible (go look at an old markerlight drone's pt cost.... HA).

Many Tau players are veterans who know what works and what doesn't. It was very easy to throw together competitive lists from day 1 without needing to go through a period of a few months to test out builds. On the other hand, it doesn't help that non-Tau players had to learn the codex from scratch as they probably had little exposure the army previously.

Veterans with competitive lists on day 1 vs opponents just starting to learn their enemies capabilities is definitely a factor in this whole argument.

Flying toaster,
I'm not sure if its intentional, but the condescending tone of your posts isn't helping your otherwise excellent points. Suggesting that people who see tau as op are children jealous of their friends do you no favors.

Imperial guard vendetta spam is widely considered an op build, and is why they are the most commonly taken allies. Look in most marine tacticas on various sites, the common paintbrush applied to every list posted is "add more IG/vendettas".

The magic number of heldrakes is two, and you do see csm taken as allies for a single drake, but rarely the main list. This is mostly because the rest of the dex is well...awful, with few exceptions.

Necrons regen isn't what makes them op, it's the fliers, specifically the transports. I don't often see any complaints about them getting back up, other than its annoying.
Oh, and MSS, but that's more not fun than op, since assault isn't popular anymore.

Eldar wraith knights aren't what makes that codex strong, it's the wave serpents and walkers.

I really doubt your meta is filled with calm rational players only while the rest of the posters who disagree with you are reactionary children, or have metas filled with such. Then again, I don't think personal attacks add weight to an argument. The fact you didn't know why half of the armies you posted about are considered strong isn't helping either, and makes me think less of your meta's competitiveness, not more.

You also never addressed my point about none of the other codexes that have recently come out producing this kind of reaction. Though looking at who posted what, I'm willing to concede its the same 9-10 people posting.

I think people's issue with the tau codex is solid shooting on suits and troops followed by the riptide, easily the best MC in the game right now, in an edition where MC's are amazing. Psyker powers that don't follow the psyker rules (marker lights being like divination's best power, dat ethereal) seems to annoy people, but I don't think those are really op in any sense.

To be fair, I don't think the tau dex is op unless you take 3 riptides, but this is every op dex in the last two editions (except gk, which didn't require spamming only one unit). As you said, IG spam vendettas, necrons spam their flying transports, so on and so forth.

Gossipmeng, you always see people who play the army leaping to its defense because people discredit your wins even if you aren't using the op builds. I do feel your pain here, and it does suck. One unit being spammed is causing most tau players to be labelled as FOTM players, which is just awful for everyone.
I myself felt it when playing the chaos 3.5 dex and the Eldar 3.0 dex, where I never used the siren bomb or IW, and didn't hide the whole game and spammed warp spiders. Recently my wolves were considered op, despite not using jaws, long fangs, and spamming scouts.

Akiasura wrote:
I do feel your pain here, and it does suck. One unit being spammed is causing most tau players to be labelled as FOTM players, which is just awful for everyone.

:( /hug

Akiasura wrote:

Bunch of stuff that makes sense...

I was not trying to be condescending in the least bit. I can see where you are coming from and appreciate the fact that you pointed it out. As far as my examples go, I just pulled stuff out of thin air that I have heard complained about on Dakka here before. I am fully aware that Necron flyer spam is a problem.

I guess what it really comes down to and this is something that Gossipmeng has stated, it is unfortunate that there is this projected backlash of the Tau Codex and how it is written based on a few bad experiences. I have played Tau practically since day one and we have struggled through it all just to claim victories no matter how minor they were.

This is a first on a warhammer forum.
3 people with opposing view points agreeing with one another and admitting they each made excellent points.

If you'll excuse me, I'm going to prepare my bomb shelter. This must be the end times

I know this is kind of off topic but I don't consider myself a WAAC player and try to bring a balance list for everything.
So would this be considered a cheeses list? I've attempted to cater for everything.

1850
HQ
Farsight 165
5 body guard & 5 gun drones 403
(2) 2x fusion, target lock
(2) 2x plasma, target lock
Drone controller, C&CN (reroll misses) and MSSS (ignore cover)

Elite
Riptide ion, fusion, skyfire, interceptor 210
Riptide ion, fusion, skyfire, interceptor 210

Troops
Firewarriors (10) shas'ui 100
Firewarriors (10) shas'ui 100
Firewarriors (10) shas'ui, devilfish SMS, Dis pods, spines 210

Fast
Pathfinders (5) 55
Pathfinders (5) 55

Heavy
Broadsides (3) Shas'vre HYMP, SMS, interceptor 220
Hammerhead, ion, SMS, dis pods 140

Or something like that (my memory for exact details fails me right now).

It has antiflyer, anti MEQ/TEQ, fire saturation redundancy (to a certain level).

I wouldn't call it cheese.
But you are probably going to kick ass with it

Boniface wrote:
I know this is kind of off topic but I don't consider myself a WAAC player and try to bring a balance list for everything.
So would this be considered a cheeses list? I've attempted to cater for everything.

1850
HQ
Farsight 165
5 body guard & 5 gun drones 403
(2) 2x fusion, target lock
(2) 2x plasma, target lock
Drone controller, C&CN (reroll misses) and MSSS (ignore cover)

Elite
Riptide ion, fusion, skyfire, interceptor 210
Riptide ion, fusion, skyfire, interceptor 210

Troops
Firewarriors (10) shas'ui 100
Firewarriors (10) shas'ui 100
Firewarriors (10) shas'ui, devilfish SMS, Dis pods, spines 210

Fast
Pathfinders (5) 55
Pathfinders (5) 55

Heavy
Broadsides (3) Shas'vre HYMP, SMS, interceptor 220
Hammerhead, ion, SMS, dis pods 140

Or something like that (my memory for exact details fails me right now).

It has antiflyer, anti MEQ/TEQ, fire saturation redundancy (to a certain level).

I'd lose the devilfish. You can do so much with those points.

Naw wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

Think of it as a level 0.25 psyker, because honestly that's what it is. the more you got, the more reliable and powerful the "psyker" becomes, but they can be twiddled down, and for each such (easy to make) kill, the "psyker" gets weaker. its a good buff, but nothing special compared to sorcerers, farseers and Liberians. just going differently about it.

You can't use that as a defence, as Tau can BB Eldar and benefit in a huge way.

You can't use it as an argument. "tau are OP because they can bring NON -TAU?"
Guess what. eldar can bring eldar too! ELDAR RUINED THE GAME OMGWTFBBQ.
Yea....no. if any, its an allies matrix issue, and I can't even see the problem here, you get allies to do your buffs rather then use your own buffs. as said-same goal, different ways to it, some like markers, some like psykers. (oh, and you cant use markers for your allies BTW, just saying.)
Seriously that's the silliest argument I've seen in a long time, and I regularly argue with religious zealots. arguing X is too good because you can bring less X for more Y.
Tau are too good because they can choose not to play tau....hilarious.
You really mised the fact the allies chart works for everyone right? (except nids at least. and some get the shorter sticks. but most armies got some use of them.)

Naw wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

As for the target lock "mistake", it seems you tau makes alot of "mistakes". before I was suspicious, now it is obvious, your tau is a cheater.

I am not the OP, markerlights were not used in so imbalanced way. Our Tau is a new player and probably just accidentally mixes old and new codex. Honest mistakes happen, at times we mix up 5th and 6th edition rules as we play both.

No, the OP's opponent used it as "one marker boosts the entire army against target", rather the "one marker boosts one squad against target"-TOTALLY different, and completely overpowered. and it was never like that, not for the markers and not for the target locks.


Maybe the fault isn't in the tau codex at all, and just all the kids who jumped the bandwagon are cheating/idiots who can't understand the basics of their own rules?

Tactical_Genius wrote:

I'd lose the devilfish. You can do so much with those points.

Probably chuck in a Ethereal at least.

 Desubot wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

I'd lose the devilfish. You can do so much with those points.

Probably chuck in a Ethereal at least.

That would work or Longstrike (I love him so much he should be in every army!)

Flying Toaster wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:

I'd lose the devilfish. You can do so much with those points.

Probably chuck in a Ethereal at least.

That would work or Longstrike (I love him so much he should be in every army!)

Actually why not both.
just realized it wasnt a stock fish but one that was a bit kitted out.

And you could probably cut the skyfire off the Riptides. There is no way I'd give up a turn of shooting with that cannon to take three BS3 pot shots at a flyer.

Akiasura wrote:
Imperial guard vendetta spam is widely considered an op build, and is why they are the most commonly taken allies. Look in most marine tacticas on various sites, the common paintbrush applied to every list posted is "add more IG/vendettas".

You seem to be a little confused here. If you want to spam Vendettas you don't take IG as allies (which are restricted to a single Fast Attack choice), you take them as the primary detachment. And, as a matter of fact, armies that take IG as the primary detachment (the only way to "spam" Vendettas) are far from "overpowered" as demonstrated by solidly middle-of-the-pack performance in 6th edition GTs (only 6 top-five showings in 17 GTs featuring 30+ players).

You can take multiple vendettas per fast attack choice

Edit:
Not to be rude, but I think you are the one who is confused. 2-3 flyers is hard for most armies to deal with, and outside of necrons and IG, nobody can take that many. This is why them, plus chaos for the drake, are the most common allies. But for marines (maybe not BA, they might use necrons) 2-3 vendettas is all the anti air you'll ever need unless facing the flying bakery.

In addition, I said that's the most common advice given to marine armies. Most GT winners are not using marines as the main detachment, so I'd expect IG allies to not been seen there.

Not to use a cliche fallacy, but you just text book straw manned me.

Akiasura wrote:
Flying toaster,

I think people's issue with the tau codex is solid shooting on suits and troops followed by the riptide, easily the best MC in the game right now, in an edition where MC's are amazing. Psyker powers that don't follow the psyker rules (marker lights being like divination's best power, dat ethereal) seems to annoy people, but I don't think those are really op in any sense.

To be fair, I don't think the tau dex is op unless you take 3 riptides, but this is every op dex in the last two editions (except gk, which didn't require spamming only one unit). As you said, IG spam vendettas, necrons spam their flying transports, so on and so forth.

Gossipmeng, you always see people who play the army leaping to its defense because people discredit your wins even if you aren't using the op builds. I do feel your pain here, and it does suck. One unit being spammed is causing most tau players to be labelled as FOTM players, which is just awful for everyone.

I do understand your points how x3 Riptides is a pain in the butt and how some armies would have issues with it especially when x3 are brought to the table. But as mentioned there are other army builds that are if not just as good but worse then this (necron flying circus for example) and the fact that I want to take x2 Riptides I hate it that makes me seem like a WAAC or TFG, neither being the case. I feel that I am an out of place player here because other players at my store and myself have not had an issue fighting Riptides as so many other people are saying they have. A good friend of mine ran an Space Marine with Dark Eldar allies army and the poison the Dark Eldar put out had killed all of his riptides by turn 4 giving him the win as he basically outshot the rest of his Fire Warriors with Riptides and well placed orbital bombardment.

I also can see the validity of your statement saying the Riptide is the best MC in the game, however that being said I think that you may need to consider the Wraithknight as the best MC in the game, just watched a game where x3 Wraithknights all with swords, shields and x2 scatter lasers supported by Waveserpent spam slaughtered a x3 Riptide list even with the Tau player using the good tactics and was actually having good dice roles. Yes the Wraithknight is much more expensive, however most Riptides are upgraded to be about 210-220pts for them to be as effective as they are, and the Wraithknight has the advantages of being faster and T8 really helps it out alot.

The wraith knight is amazing, and I'd certainly put it up there with the riptide in terms of performance. Against the most commonly faced army, marines drop podding, the riptide performs a bit better, which does make it appear superior in the current meta. If transports become a thing, the wraith knight might pull ahead.

I think the combo of marker light and riptide is what makes it feel broken. Only invulnerable saves can be taken against it at that point, and the large blast template helps with the weaker bs, which makes players feel like there is no defense

Are you sure it wasn't the wave serpent spam that won it? I'm half joking here, but wave serpents are very strong (it's a shame the basic Eldar troops are just average, unless wraith guard. This could be bias, iyanden was my first army)

Edit, that said, 2 riptides don't make you TFG. I love the model personally, and can understand fielding as many as you own. 3 riptides however...
This is the same with necrons. 2-3 flyers is fine. 7-9 though?

 Savageconvoy wrote:
And you could probably cut the skyfire off the Riptides. There is no way I'd give up a turn of shooting with that cannon to take three BS3 pot shots at a flyer.

I tend to use the TL fusion blaster for that with ripplefire (should the gen not blow up in my face).
trying to cover all the bases.

So you think longstrike and and ethereal over a fish?

I have totally hijacked this thread. I apologise.

Don't think it's much of a problem since the thread has always been rather directionless.

But Devilfish are generally never worth it. They're expensive and only transport troops that should really be sticking into cover and enjoying the 30" range weapons. But when you ask "Is this expensive and questionable tank worth less than a BS5 tank hunting hammerhead and a huge leadership buff" The answer should be fairly obvious. I haven't unpacked my devilfish since day 1 of 6th ed and even then it was only for recon drone turbo boosting outflanking antics.

I can see your idea behind the TL fusion hitting flyers, but that's still rather hard to do. Two TL bs3 shots are indeed better than 3 BS3 shots, but it still forces you to give up shooting the main weapon. Give the skyfire to your Broadsides since they could use it more. Dedicating all of their firepower into a flyer would be far more suitable than wasting the primary weapon in hopes the secondary weapon will smudge their paint.

 gossipmeng wrote:
This topic is now just dragging on because of riptides. 1 riptide isn't a big deal, 2 is annoying, 3 OKAY fine 3 is a bit too strong for some armies to handle. However, the same goes for 3 hell drakes, 3 annihilation barges, 3 vendettas, 3 wraithknights (although many pts), etc.

3 dreadnoughts? I am interested which unit I should spam with BA