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Hey Fellas,

Remember about 3 or 4 years ago when Marine armies dominated the Tournament scene.
Then the xenos creep started...

At the Bugeater Grand Tournament that just passed, I was one of like 3 Marine players.

Do you think we will see Marines dominate again or will they have a "toned down" codex?

I don't know about dominate, Tau Eldar and IG should still be big challengers, but this all depends on the new dex.

The one thing I would put money on of course is a dramatic rise in marine players again. This is of course expected with every codex, but the new C:SM will be the go to for many SW/BA/BT/DT players until their book gets an update into 6th.

Good point Bill..

I would like to see more "custom" Vanilla chapters winning instead of the specialists..

I sense the rise of mech Eldar and tau.

Maybe the new vanilla codex will be good to marines, but I think what they really need is more things that ignore cover.

I dunno, whirlwinds and thunderfires aren't too bad at ignoring cover. The difference is that there has only been one new SM codex released so far, Dark Angels, while the rest have been xenos. That right there is why there haven't been too many SM players. People love the bandwagons.

As long as the Heldrake exists, MEQ will have issues climbing to the top in tournaments. Unless the new SM book gets an equalizer to the drake, whether by ignoring the damage they deal or by shooting them out of the sky, I expect we won't see very many Space Marine armies at tournaments at all beyond the initial few months typical of every bandwagon.

So...Stormravens and Stormtalons aren't enough to deal with Helldrakes?

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
So...Stormravens and Stormtalons aren't enough to deal with Helldrakes?

Depends on your definition of "deal with".

Can the talons and ravens kill drakes? Sure.
Can they do it before the drakes cripple the rest of the marine army? Probably not.

To address the main point. Unless someone completely insane writes the new marine codex and we end up with Helldrake MKII or 25 point terminators or something, there is no way marines of any flavor will be top tier competitive in 6th edition. The era of power armor is over in 6th edition for now.

Dealing with a hell turkey after he roasts 150 points of marines and vector striked some other amount of points ....oh and then have that done times 2 or 3.... not a good plan. Oh and stormravens are a large point investment. Plus on a good round of savibg throws a hell turkey can live through a round or two of shooting. Its just too much of a game breaker for its points. It has no weakness other than armour 10 on the back.

Big Blind Bill wrote:
The one thing I would put money on of course is a dramatic rise in marine players again. This is of course expected with every codex, but the new C:SM will be the go to for many SW/BA/BT/DT players until their book gets an update into 6th.

 FarseerAndyMan wrote:
Good point Bill..

I would like to see more "custom" Vanilla chapters winning instead of the specialists..

The first quote makes a lot of sense and I agree with it.

For the second... I have to say it was discouraging getting back into 40k with blood angels, only to hear massive complaints about my "non-vanilla" marines. In hindsight, I almost wish I had painted them as generic DIY marines so I could use whatever book I'd like! Except that it wouldn't be fun to do so...

With the advent of allies, if I work on them more I plan to paint in a new scheme (Salamanders colors) so that I can use the "vanilla" book which gets updated more often, and just ally in my current blood angels. They got nerfed soooooo hard... and yet I still feel like most folks I see at gaming stores wouldn't be happy for them to win. I just don't understand the psyche about the non-vanilla marines... but because it exists it really, Really makes me want to play vanilla marines, instead (and to remember this for the future so I don't make the same mistake again).

The cries of overpowered Heldrakes are way overblown. IMO it is a crutch used by average players.

Yes Stormravens should own Heldrakes every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Anyone who lets a Heldrake 'roast' 150pts of marines was out of position and/or brought a poor list in the first place.

Reecius just finished 2nd at the Golden Throne GT with marines.

Here is the honest truth about the the top lists/codex. Top tier is whatever the best players are playing. Period. It's the players, not the army. A short sighted person would say I just said top players can win with anything. I didn't say that. Top players can win with any codex. That's what I'm saying.

Why aren't top players playing marines then? They just played the hell out of them in 5th edition. Now that 6th is allowing more competitive Xenos armies, top players are taking a break from marines and trying out new things. Trust me if the top players wanted to win with marines, they would. Even with the precious Heldrakes flying around.

Player skill will always be the most dominant factor in determining the outcome of games, for certain. But in a vacuum, I really think that despite all of the Imperial bias in the game, Xenos are stronger than they have ever been since the late days of 2nd edition.

Tau are very much a top tier army. If they ever Seize, they basically win the game outright and its a huge struggle even when they do not. Riptides have plugged a gap that not even allies could fill.

Orks have slipped a bit, but are still never a cakewalk. Shooting ork lists with a side of Battlewagon rushdown are able to go one on one with most top tier armies.

Eldar have a few cute tricks, but I think the rise of Mech Eldar is a bit overstated. Serpents are too easily glanced to death and the army has no real way to close in on Tau or IG to greatly benefit from its massed catapults. The Wraith and Bike armies are still really good, though they have been diminished by Fortune and Doom not being a lock.

Necrons are strong and have a lot of really interesting builds, but pretty much everyone just seems to play Campcrons, which basically folds to IG and certain mass deep strike armies. The flyer paranoia pretty much died down when people saw how it actually performed, as well. Still, Crons packing Mind Shackle and Wraiths are always going to be top contenders and its arguably the most novice friendly Xenos list.

Nids are in a weird spot where if they avoid drawing certain matchups, they dominate, but others they have no chance against. A nid player who can avoid facing GK or SW in an event has a good shot at placing well, but as long as things like Psycher killing missles and Jaws are out there, they are rolling the dice.

Dark Eldar pretty much exist to supplement other xenos books right now. The new shooting game is just not something they can handle very well and the general nerfing of vehicles was a double kick to the nuts for them. There are some sick things you can do pairing them up with Eldar and Tau, however.

Overall, I think IG still are the strongest army in the game (when done right), but I think you have to give the nod to Tau and Necrons as being the next strongest lists out there and the tournament results seem to reflect that, for the most part. Also, you could put foot slogging Templars in Reece's hands and he would still win a lot of games....

 Carnage43 wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
So...Stormravens and Stormtalons aren't enough to deal with Helldrakes?

Depends on your definition of "deal with".

Can the talons and ravens kill drakes? Sure.
Can they do it before the drakes cripple the rest of the marine army? Probably not.

To address the main point. Unless someone completely insane writes the new marine codex and we end up with Helldrake MKII or 25 point terminators or something, there is no way marines of any flavor will be top tier competitive in 6th edition. The era of power armor is over in 6th edition for now.

Just hide in your 35 point METAL BAWKSES then get out once you swat the hellturkey down.

but hopefully within a few months the new space marine codex will give more interceptor options.

 Wildstorm wrote:
I sense the rise of mech Eldar and tau.

Maybe the new vanilla codex will be good to marines, but I think what they really need is more things that ignore cover.

im a DE player - there is already to much stuff that ignores cover. So many things just look in my direction and i die, its hard and requires a lot of skill using DE as it is, as most weapons deny any save, dont need even more ignore cover, and ignore night fight weapons.

Seeing the recent rumors.....

Anyone want to weigh back in on this one?..?...?....

 FarseerAndyMan wrote:
Seeing the recent rumors.....

Anyone want to weigh back in on this one?..?...?....

I can't see centurions being any good, but I have a feeling one of those rhino variants will bring the number of held rakes down significantly.

Eldercaveman wrote:

 FarseerAndyMan wrote:
Seeing the recent rumors.....

Anyone want to weigh back in on this one?..?...?....

I can't see centurions being any good, but I have a feeling one of those rhino variants will bring the number of held rakes down significantly.

Agreed. Zero hope for the centurions, but if the Hunter/icarus AA cannon is LETHAL, it might have a 2 fold effect on helldrakes;

1. People will take less because they will get owned.
2. They will be killed before getting a chance to fire.

The amount of fire-power needed to achieve that though is STAGGERING, and will basically invalidate all other flyers in the game. So I assume it's not going to happen, which means marines will still be a mid-tier book at best. A few price cuts, couple new pieces of wargear, maybe a nerf to thunderfire cannons and possibly some flavor with the chapter tactics, but nothing that will make marines top tier unless they go pants on head stupid somewhere else.

DarthDiggler wrote:
The cries of overpowered Heldrakes are way overblown. IMO it is a crutch used by average players.

Yes Stormravens should own Heldrakes every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Anyone who lets a Heldrake 'roast' 150pts of marines was out of position and/or brought a poor list in the first place.

Reecius just finished 2nd at the Golden Throne GT with marines.

Here is the honest truth about the the top lists/codex. Top tier is whatever the best players are playing. Period. It's the players, not the army. A short sighted person would say I just said top players can win with anything. I didn't say that. Top players can win with any codex. That's what I'm saying.

Why aren't top players playing marines then? They just played the hell out of them in 5th edition. Now that 6th is allowing more competitive Xenos armies, top players are taking a break from marines and trying out new things. Trust me if the top players wanted to win with marines, they would. Even with the precious Heldrakes flying around.

I assume you are referring to yourself as an 'above average' player? Reece also did not face any Helldrakes during the Golden Throne Tournament. His army also did not have a lot of tactical marines in it. I agree with you that one Helldrake isn't that big of a deal, but any CSM player who wants to get to the second round of a tournament will have 2-3.