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I am starting up Flames of War at last after recently recontacting an old aquaintance with a sizable German late war army.

At the moment I am looking at buying a Sherman box set deal from Plastic Soldier company, one Stuart box, one M5 Halftrack box and one infantry box with extra heavy weapon s, seven boxes in total. By my caluclation that would give me a US tank company with six platoons including H.Q.

Now for my question and the initial reason for the thread.

I rather like the M4A3 and it has a lot of options, in fact I have already decided which turrets I want from the boxset, I prefer their look to the M4A1 models and so far have no indication that there is any in game difference between them.
However the V3 Flames of War lists all offer only the M4 or M4A1 Sherman to US platoons. I know this is not true the other M4's were used during WW2, but I cant really find out when and where. Can alone help me ascertain which theatres and campaigns used the M4A3.

Later as the purchase and development of my list progresses there will likely be other questions, so I might as well use this thread as the beginning of a blog of sorts.

The way I think about authenticity.
I am less interested in actual units because while I want the equipment to be accurate I am making a generic force. It has always been my beleif that for historical a generic unit is more accurate than a specific unit unless in direct recreation of an actual battle. If I make a particular company from say 3rd Armoured then even if I get things right I will get things wrong, and above all be placing an actual unit where it was not. So for example if I recreate a historical unit and participate it in a battle that the unit was never at its less authentic in my eyes than if I just make a generic company with no divisional markings.

In Flames of War, the M4A3 Sherman can be found in the Battle of the Bulge books. It's listed differently from other Sherman's because it has an ability called 'Detroit's Finest', which gives them an extra 2" of movement over cross-country or roads.

However, if all you're using is the v3 Forces book, or really any book that doesn't call for a differentiation between Sherman types (again, basically the 3 Bulge books) then feel free to us whatever Sherman's you'd like.

PSC specifically notes that only one iof the available turrets fits the M4A1's they sell. As the two kits (M4A1 and M4A3) are otherwise identical other than rthe upper hull I wonder if the 75mm and 105mm turrets for the M1A1 were not in some way different.

Here are the relevant links:

M4A1
http://theplasticsoldiercompany.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_51_56_57&products_id=204

M4A3
http://theplasticsoldiercompany.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_51_56_57&products_id=290

Also the M4A2, which is listed specifically as British and Commonwealth. I see no corroboration that the A2 was export only, was this true?
http://theplasticsoldiercompany.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_37_39_55&products_id=203

There are for completeness also M4A4/Firefly kits, but I won't be needing those.
http://theplasticsoldiercompany.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_37_39_55&products_id=269
I am prepared to just buy the M4A1's, but if the turrets are wrong the tanks will be wrong. Am I missing anything?
A lot of Shermans means a lot of rope to hang myself with regarding authenticity.


There was some good news regarding turret options i was able rto research that will be of interest to those who collect these kits, but I will share that once we get the business of the other way as to which kits to buy. I will be needing precisely three boxsets for my tank company Sherman platoons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 infinite_array wrote:
In Flames of War, the M4A3 Sherman can be found in the Battle of the Bulge books. It's listed differently from other Sherman's because it has an ability called 'Detroit's Finest', which gives them an extra 2" of movement over cross-country or roads.

Thanks for that.

 infinite_array wrote:

However, if all you're using is the v3 Forces book, or really any book that doesn't call for a differentiation between Sherman types (again, basically the 3 Bulge books) then feel free to us whatever Sherman's you'd like.

Pretty much every entry says M4 or M4A1, that's fairly specific IMHO. I begin to wonder if its an attempted lock in with certain boxsets from Battlefront. It would make a lot os sense to just say Sherman as it seperately specifies which main gun the tank has. Yet it does not do this.

Amended (would appear i don't know what i am talking about)

I would take photos over Wikipedia.

 Orlanth wrote:
I would take photos over Wikipedia.

I would agree, but i shall stay quiet till i can dig out the book i am sure i read about it in.

Regardless of that i would say you wont go far wrong using the M4A3, though i know also some battalions ended up being a total mix of Sherman models dues to losses and replacements so i would not think there is a totally 'right' way to do things. Certainly the battle group overlord book which i consider rather well researched allows the use of M4A1 / M4A2 and M4A3 under the American tank platoon.

The best book for the M4A3 variants is Blood Guts & Glory.

M4A2s were not export only - The USMC used them.

Also some Sherman Dozers, Jemima's and Flails were M4A2s.

There is also rumours that some British M4A2s were run out to US units after the Bulge to replace losses but actual hard evidence is hard to find on that.

With regards the M4A3 are you looking for when its most commonly used?

I'd recommend the Steven Zaloga 'Armour' books, especially his book that purely covers Shermans. Nearly over 400 pics in that book I seem to remember.

Forgive me for being lazy, but I am happy with just a short answer. Also out of 400pics there will a disproportionate highlight on oddities. The average stock tank might warrant a picture so will the unique modded tank or unfielded prototype.

So generic late war American, regular not veteran troops and I have fifteen Shermans to buy.

1. What ratios of M4A1 to M4A3 is fair, understanding that each boxset holds five tanks so I need to buy three boxsets.

2. Did either chassis favour or exclude a particular gun or turret?

Generally, one either fields M4/M4A1s in Midwar and LW(Normandy) and M4A3s in LW(Lorraine & Bulge)

Both types can have 75mm, 76mm, or 105mm guns.

You need to get a army list set before you start buying tanks. What book do you have to work with?

A tank company can have up to 23 tanks, with 8 76mm, 6 105mm, and 9 75mm in BG&G.


Here's a sample list from BG&G using BF's box sets
Book Blood Guts & Glory
1 box of M4A3(Late) ($58)
1 box of M4A3(76) ($58)
1 box Armored Rifle Platoon ($80)
1 box Armored Artillery w 3 M7s and Observer Sherman ($52)
1 Box Tank Destroyers (M18 or M10) ($45)
1 Blister Tank Destroyer Security Section ($26)
1 Blister Cav Recon ($23)
AOP ($17.50)
($360)

Split the Tanks so there are two 76s and two 75s in each platoon, with the 1iC and 2iC the left over tanks

7th Armored Tank Company (Trained)
Tank Company HQ - 1x CinC M4A3(Late), 1x 2iC M4A3(76) (190 pts)
Tank Platoon - 1x Command M4A3 (Late), 1 M4A3(late), 2x M4A3(76) (375pts)
Tank Platoon - 1x Command M4A3 (Late), 1 M4A3(late), 2x M4A3(76) (375pts)
Trained Corps Tank Destroyer Platoon - 1x Command .50cal Recon Jeep, 2x M20, 4x M18 Hellcat GMC (late) (315 pts)
Armored Rifle Platoon - 1x Command Rifle, 5x Rifle, 5x Bazooka, 2x LMG, 1x 60mm Mortar, 2x M3 with .50cal AA MG, 3x M3 with AA MG (225 pts)
Veteran Cavalry Recon Platoon - 1x Command M8 Armoured Car, 1x Mortar Jeep, 1x Recon Jeep (90 pts)
Trained Armored Field Artillery Battery - 1x Command Carbine, 1x Staff, 1x M4 Sherman OP, 3x M7 Priest HMC (170 pts)
Air Observation Post - L4 Grasshopper AOP (40 pts)

1780 Points, 6 Platoons

Replacing the AFAB with a 105mm Field Artillery box set puts it at 1750pts

Two boxes of PSC M4A3s can be bought instead of the separate BF M4A3 platoons and that gives the option of the 105mm tank and it saves $56.

If you want to get the PSC halftracks ($26), the the dismounted Armored Rifle Platoon from BF will give you the infantry (US703) for $23 and saves $31 over BFs ARP boxset

 infinite_array wrote:
It's listed differently from other Sherman's because it has an ability called 'Detroit's Finest', which gives them an extra 2" of movement over cross-country or roads.

Detroits finest? Rather ironic now. Wouldnt it give them a slowly incremental chance of falling to bits?

AndrasOtto wrote:
Generally, one either fields M4/M4A1s in Midwar and LW(Normandy) and M4A3s in LW(Lorraine & Bulge)

Both types can have 75mm, 76mm, or 105mm guns.

You need to get a army list set before you start buying tanks. What book do you have to work with?

A tank company can have up to 23 tanks, with 8 76mm, 6 105mm, and 9 75mm in BG&G.


Here's a sample list from BG&G using BF's box sets
Book Blood Guts & Glory
1 box of M4A3(Late) ($58)
1 box of M4A3(76) ($58)
1 box Armored Rifle Platoon ($80)
1 box Armored Artillery w 3 M7s and Observer Sherman ($52)
1 Box Tank Destroyers (M18 or M10) ($45)
1 Blister Tank Destroyer Security Section ($26)
1 Blister Cav Recon ($23)
AOP ($17.50)
($360)

Split the Tanks so there are two 76s and two 75s in each platoon, with the 1iC and 2iC the left over tanks

7th Armored Tank Company (Trained)
Tank Company HQ - 1x CinC M4A3(Late), 1x 2iC M4A3(76) (190 pts)
Tank Platoon - 1x Command M4A3 (Late), 1 M4A3(late), 2x M4A3(76) (375pts)
Tank Platoon - 1x Command M4A3 (Late), 1 M4A3(late), 2x M4A3(76) (375pts)
Trained Corps Tank Destroyer Platoon - 1x Command .50cal Recon Jeep, 2x M20, 4x M18 Hellcat GMC (late) (315 pts)
Armored Rifle Platoon - 1x Command Rifle, 5x Rifle, 5x Bazooka, 2x LMG, 1x 60mm Mortar, 2x M3 with .50cal AA MG, 3x M3 with AA MG (225 pts)
Veteran Cavalry Recon Platoon - 1x Command M8 Armoured Car, 1x Mortar Jeep, 1x Recon Jeep (90 pts)
Trained Armored Field Artillery Battery - 1x Command Carbine, 1x Staff, 1x M4 Sherman OP, 3x M7 Priest HMC (170 pts)
Air Observation Post - L4 Grasshopper AOP (40 pts)

1780 Points, 6 Platoons

Replacing the AFAB with a 105mm Field Artillery box set puts it at 1750pts

Two boxes of PSC M4A3s can be bought instead of the separate BF M4A3 platoons and that gives the option of the 105mm tank and it saves $56.

If you want to get the PSC halftracks ($26), the the dismounted Armored Rifle Platoon from BF will give you the infantry (US703) for $23 and saves $31 over BFs ARP boxset

Great answers. Actually I have given this subject a lot of thought, but want to get all my DUKWs in a row (sorry cant resist) before putting any money on the table.

I am looking at Plastic Soldier Company boxsets: 3x M4 Shermans, 1-3x M3 Halftracks, 1x M5 Stuarts, 1x Infantry and 1x Heavy weapons (unreleased). All can be found on the PSC website linked to throughout this thread, all vehicle boxsets contain 5 vehicles each. The two infantry boxsets will make an infantry company plus heavy weapons.

As I don't even know whats in the heavy weapons boxsets yet I am open to exact layout, but the set will contain mortars and the LMG's as the other heavy weapon boxes for other lines do , it might contain a 37mm for the ARPs if it doesnt I will go with the five bazooka option for my ARP.

15 Shermans yields:
One 2x Sherman 75mm HQ
Two 5x Sherman 75mm platoon
One 3x Sherman 105mm Assault Gun platoon
plus five extra 76mm turrets for swap ins for the Sherman platoons

Each sprue contains one high bustle and one low bustle turret hatch, you need both for the 76mm turret, but only the low bustle for the 75/105mm turret
Check out sprue image link on this page

Now reviews of the Plastic Soldier Company Sherman kits say that you can only therefore have enough hatches to make one turret per tank, however from my research there was a lot of chop and change going on with the Shermans, and they werre after all designed with that in mind. By equipping five of the 75/105mm Shermans with high bustle turret hatches I will have enough hatches for a full platoon of 76mm turrets to swap in.
Current lists avialable to me only allow me to swap one whole platoon, though I know other lists allwed two tanks per platoon to be 76mm equipped. Either way this covers all the bases.

Here is the providence for the above, and the good news I promised for gamers in the OP:
http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/turret_types/75mm_turrets.html

One M3 Halftrack boxset will provide transport for my ARP for my Tank company.

Two more will provide a second ARP, Mech Inf HQ Platoon (I will need one resin jeep separate) and if I am lucky an Armored Mortar Platoon. I can also field those infantry as the core of a horde list, but that would involve towed artillery and other expensive stuff.
Earlier lists allowed naked rifle platoons as tank riders, historically my research has a doctrine for US tank riders, 6 per Sherman 4 or Stuart, all get off before contact is expected. The old Battlefront US army tank company had two rifle platoons in it, probably intended to be considered tank riders.

Here is my provisional list:

Tank Company H.Q. (2x M4A? 75mm) 140pts
Tank Platoon (4x M4A? 75mm) 275pts
Tank Platoon (5x M4A? 76mm) 445pts

Assault Gun Platoon (5x M4A? 105mm) 215pts
Light Tank Platoon (4x M5A1 Stuart) 190pts
Armored Rifle Platoon 225pts
1490pts

I have a list that includes everything, all fifteen Shermans and 5 Stuarts, no 76mm turrets though and it coes to 1505pts frustratingly enough.
Frankly I would prefer to try lists that are light of 76mm, the better guns were not always available and can be a crutch. Also this list has no recon.

Adding the extra halfracks, ARP, Armored Mortar platoon and a single Cavalry Recon section will make a 2k list, but its a lot to go with for now.
My opponent has Panzer IV's, Stugs, some Panzergrenadiers, Schwimmwagen recon and Brummbars (which I gave him as a gift a few years back ).

AndrasOtto wrote:
Generally, one either fields M4/M4A1s in Midwar and LW(Normandy) and M4A3s in LW(Lorraine & Bulge)

Both types can have 75mm, 76mm, or 105mm guns.

You need to get a army list set before you start buying tanks. What book do you have to work with?

A tank company can have up to 23 tanks, with 8 76mm, 6 105mm, and 9 75mm in BG&G.


Here's a sample list from BG&G using BF's box sets
Book Blood Guts & Glory
1 box of M4A3(Late) ($58)
1 box of M4A3(76) ($58)
1 box Armored Rifle Platoon ($80)
1 box Armored Artillery w 3 M7s and Observer Sherman ($52)
1 Box Tank Destroyers (M18 or M10) ($45)
1 Blister Tank Destroyer Security Section ($26)
1 Blister Cav Recon ($23)
AOP ($17.50)
($360)

Split the Tanks so there are two 76s and two 75s in each platoon, with the 1iC and 2iC the left over tanks

7th Armored Tank Company (Trained)
Tank Company HQ - 1x CinC M4A3(Late), 1x 2iC M4A3(76) (190 pts)
Tank Platoon - 1x Command M4A3 (Late), 1 M4A3(late), 2x M4A3(76) (375pts)
Tank Platoon - 1x Command M4A3 (Late), 1 M4A3(late), 2x M4A3(76) (375pts)
Trained Corps Tank Destroyer Platoon - 1x Command .50cal Recon Jeep, 2x M20, 4x M18 Hellcat GMC (late) (315 pts)
Armored Rifle Platoon - 1x Command Rifle, 5x Rifle, 5x Bazooka, 2x LMG, 1x 60mm Mortar, 2x M3 with .50cal AA MG, 3x M3 with AA MG (225 pts)
Veteran Cavalry Recon Platoon - 1x Command M8 Armoured Car, 1x Mortar Jeep, 1x Recon Jeep (90 pts)
Trained Armored Field Artillery Battery - 1x Command Carbine, 1x Staff, 1x M4 Sherman OP, 3x M7 Priest HMC (170 pts)
Air Observation Post - L4 Grasshopper AOP (40 pts)

1780 Points, 6 Platoons

Replacing the AFAB with a 105mm Field Artillery box set puts it at 1750pts

Two boxes of PSC M4A3s can be bought instead of the separate BF M4A3 platoons and that gives the option of the 105mm tank and it saves $56.

If you want to get the PSC halftracks ($26), the the dismounted Armored Rifle Platoon from BF will give you the infantry (US703) for $23 and saves $31 over BFs ARP boxset

Thanks AO. I just found what I want to run for my first FoW army. Now I just need to get the cash together to get it. You did miss one item in your list, the Dismounted MG's ($12.50) for the Halftracks in the ARP.