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 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
The drop pods don't say that you must disembark unlike normal drop pod rules where you have to

Yep, try insisting this in a game...

I always insist my army plays by it's codex. Its not like there is a universal drop pod in the BRB. each codex is separate from the other and each has their own rules. If vanilla space marines have to disembark, then that's what their drop pod does. Otherwise it is a vehicle coming in on reserves, much like a stormraven. Do you have to disembark the stormraven on first turn?

 Icculus wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
The drop pods don't say that you must disembark unlike normal drop pod rules where you have to

Yep, try insisting this in a game...

I always insist my army plays by it's codex. Its not like there is a universal drop pod in the BRB. each codex is separate from the other and each has their own rules. If vanilla space marines have to disembark, then that's what their drop pod does. Otherwise it is a vehicle coming in on reserves, much like a stormraven. Do you have to disembark the stormraven on first turn?

Pretty much this. If the FAQ isn't to be trusted, can I have my Drop Pod Terminators back?

 Icculus wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
The drop pods don't say that you must disembark unlike normal drop pod rules where you have to

Yep, try insisting this in a game...

I always insist my army plays by it's codex. Its not like there is a universal drop pod in the BRB. each codex is separate from the other and each has their own rules. If vanilla space marines have to disembark, then that's what their drop pod does. Otherwise it is a vehicle coming in on reserves, much like a stormraven. Do you have to disembark the stormraven on first turn?

But remember, when the Black Templars book was written, logic and fun were still part of the game, not petty whinging about how GW never took into account every single situation imaginable...

It's not petty whining because I can go play a game called Starcraft where they do bother to think about different situations. It's called competition. There's no excuse for GWs lack of tight and balanced rules. They choose to publish slop.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 Icculus wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
The drop pods don't say that you must disembark unlike normal drop pod rules where you have to

Yep, try insisting this in a game...

I always insist my army plays by it's codex. Its not like there is a universal drop pod in the BRB. each codex is separate from the other and each has their own rules. If vanilla space marines have to disembark, then that's what their drop pod does. Otherwise it is a vehicle coming in on reserves, much like a stormraven. Do you have to disembark the stormraven on first turn?

But remember, when the Black Templars book was written, logic and fun were still part of the game, not petty whinging about how GW never took into account every single situation imaginable...

What's in the book doesn't matter at all; GW replaced the Drop Pod Assault entry through the FAQ in 6th edition. They removed the rule that explicitly said you have to disembark.

so what is your point? are you going to keep your marines huddled in a drop pod?

There might be times this could be useful, but I'm not too sure when that would be.

how about never. the only time it would be useful would be to lose an opponent.

It's useful because black templars are an assault army. why would i want to unload next to a firing squad just to shoot my pistols at them when I could wait and assault them next turn.

Well it's very possible that someone has thought of a use for it that we haven't.

What's in the book doesn't matter at all; GW replaced the Drop Pod Assault entry through the FAQ in 6th edition. They removed the rule that explicitly said you have to disembark.

Except that the Black Templar FAQ came out after the 6th edition BRB. The FAQ, for all purposes for RAW, is the correct way of playing the BT Drop Pod.

Saythings wrote:

What's in the book doesn't matter at all; GW replaced the Drop Pod Assault entry through the FAQ in 6th edition. They removed the rule that explicitly said you have to disembark.

Except that the Black Templar FAQ came out after the 6th edition BRB. The FAQ, for all purposes for RAW, is the correct way of playing the BT Drop Pod.

All they have to do is write what they mean and mean what they write. But they can't even do that.

It's definitely useful for a dread (how I've seen it used). Now he has an extra three hp the turn he comes in, and can assault out of his vehicle the next turn. Also an exploding drop pod can't hurt him. Also it's open topped, so he shoots from anywhere on the drop pod hull

It's also useful because a DP is open topped, sop you still get your turn 1 shooting. Heck, you could fire a dreadnought out.

Saythings wrote:

What's in the book doesn't matter at all; GW replaced the Drop Pod Assault entry through the FAQ in 6th edition. They removed the rule that explicitly said you have to disembark.

Except that the Black Templar FAQ came out after the 6th edition BRB. The FAQ, for all purposes for RAW, is the correct way of playing the BT Drop Pod.

Exactly. Who are we to discuss the how/why of the rules we are given. They are written as such. and if you think about it, it does make sense. It keeps the close combat guys protected before they assault everything.

Oh, yeah I forgot they were open-topped. I wish they made this change for all drop pods! That would be quite useful actually. It would repel a lot of S6 Eldar fire, since they can't pen it.

So for more discussion about this go the POLL in the "You make da call" forum.

I personally would argue against staying in a drop pod even though I'm a BT player. I wouldn't let you do it without a roll off for it. And in the codex after FAQ's all it says is units can not rembark after there disembark so I can see his point.

I'm NOT a templar player, and I call bulls on your wish to dice-off raven.

If RAW leaves a loophole, then it is fully allowed to take advantage of.

It might not be a nice thing to do, and puts you slightly into the TFG realm, but its legal.

can we bring the discussion back on topic? there is already another thread dealing with the beardiness of the drop pod issue.

The biggest problem I see with the Black Templars, is the righteous zeal rule. It can force your troops to walk off an objective or into assault range of something. Daemons lack grenades. No problem. Shoot some of the Templars and they'll happily walk out of terrain for you.

I want to play Templars, but until their codex is fixed, I can't see a way around this flaw.

Going to ground prevents Righteous Zeal, but of course comes with disadvantages of its own.

Martel732 wrote:
How exactly is a 200 pt vehicle with only AV 12 HP 3 and no ability to ignore cover an abomination? I'd much rather see Stormravens than Helldrakes (harder to kill, ignore cover) or Vendetta (Far more HP and fire power per army point spent)

Hmmm, let's see... It eats other most other fliers - because they are not AV 12, and typically mounts 12 twinlinked str 5 bolters with psiammo. It also has a multimelta. It has an assualt cannon that can fire 360. It can fire at two different targets via PotMS, killing your tank and a flier, or two fliers if it get's lucky. It's AV 12 all around, so there's no "maneuvering for a weak point"; oh, and it craps paladins or dreadnoughts or some other crazy gak without pausing for breath.

That's not even all of the crap it can pull. Now, deal with two. And a dreadknight. Ugh.

I don't have psyammo chief. I'm BA.

My success rate against GK goes *up* the more stormravens they bring. What does that tell you about them? The look on their face when the thing crashes with all those paladins on board is priceless.

Let me repeat this again: HP 3 AV 12 for 200+ points is NOT GOOD. It dies. Constantly. People aren't stupid and they shoot the damn thing down and everything inside instagibs.

And if you play against Vendettas, you basically autolose because they trump you that hard.

Necron fliers are good because there are ton of them, and if they die, the troops just come back unscathed. Vendettas are good because they are priced the same as *dreadnoughts* and have comparable firepower to Stormravens. Helldrakes ignore cover with two different attacks that are both AP3, have a 5++ invuln, and regenerate HPs.

Stormravens have none of those advantages. The GK one is a little slicker with the psy ammo, but its still a HP 3 AV 12 deathtrap. The Stormraven is an expensive point sink that starts in reserves and really only serves as a hedge against helldrakes or as the cornerstone of a gimmick list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and your Stormraven has to hover for the contents to assault. Hovering Stormraven = owned. Otherwise, the occupants have to deepstrike, which means no assault, and usually results in getting many pulse rifles or catapults to the face.

I most often seem them fielded by GKs - and they wreck my day. Contents are dumped early, if any, to avoid getting them shot down and insta-dying.

Game after game of them decimating my armies trumps your "they are not good because I said so".

True, my dice hate me, and I'm not the best player - but those things are a problem.

More usefully, what do you see drop them most often? Dark Reaper exarch on an Icarus has worked for me, but it's boring, and I hate camping and spending all those points just to deal with the ravens and drakes.

The problem with a loaded Stormraven is that its worth shooting an entire army at if necessary. All one needs is three glances. Not exactly epic. If they have multiple loaded Stormravens, now their turn 1 table presence is very low and you basically get to engage their list completely piecemealed. The loaded models can not possibly assault before turn 3. Under the best circumstances.

It gets epically bad when you can do something like drop a fragnought on their aegis line and frag everything manning the commlink. Then they get their Stormravens piecemeal and their list completely falls apart.

When they dump their contents early, they must enter by deep strike. That allows for mishaps and prevents them from assaulting that turn. Shoot them.

Granted, the GK are a more formidable list by far than the BA. And they get Stormravens in the FA slot, not the Heavy slot. But compared to Vendettas and Helldrakes, the Stormraven is really mediocre.

The lowly quad gun with a BS 4 model puts a solid 1-2 glances on a Stormraven. Note that again, each glance is basically killing 70+ of model. You can't get that efficiency anywhere else. Prescience some lascannons or MLs or something to get the rest of the glances. It happens all the time. Stormravens don't have saves like Helldrakes, which is why this approach does not work well against the helldrake. If you don't explode it, you run the risk of it regenerating the damage you did to it. But it sure works awesome against the more expensive Stormraven.

If you have this kind of issue with Stormravens, what do helldrakes do to your list?

The helldrake is a meta changer. You must have solutions. The Stormraven is not, due to its expensive nature and inability to ignore cover. Look at the math of a Stormraven trying to shoot down a Wave Serpent vs the cheaper helldrake vector striking. It's down right depressing.

I've only squared off against the helldrake twice, and, as I don't play a-holes, there's never more than one in a low points game.

The first time, yeah - it ate my army.

The second time, I brought a Dark Reaper Exarch with an Icarus cannon, and it was like that scene from The Crow: "Caw! Caw! Bang! Feth, I'm dead!"

People aren't jerks for using the helldrake. It's one of the primary features of the CSM codex. If anything, GW are the jerks for making the thing. I don't blame people for using it.

Try going against triple helldrake lists at 1850 before decrying the Stormraven.

I think that if you bring something to your play group that you know people have no answer for, that's kinda jerky.

If you bring 3 - yeah, you're super jerky.

Anyway, I'm going to see if Wave Serpents and Warp Spiders can clip the thing's wings.

It's a standard competitive CSM loadout. It loses horribly to IG air cav and most Tau builds. How is it jerky? It's just kinda what they do.

Warwalkers with scatterlaser/bright lance are probably pretty unpleasant in combination with icarcus/quad gun. Plus other fire from Wave Serpents. Prescienced pulse lasers are really mean.

If you really want to be brutal, get the Eldar flier with the two lances and pulse laser and then try to get the divination power that allows three dice for reserves, so you can try to always come in right after he does.