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The Crimson Hunter is crap. I've tried to make it work...but it just dies. I might as well bring a -160pt list.

Yeah, most of it is the thing arriving at exactly the wrong time.

On top of unkillable Plague Marines...it's pretty bad. I really don't mind one. Three...? OK, you win - get your stuff off the table so I can play a game.

Plague marines are trivial for Eldar. You have S6 weapons and pseudo-rending on all catapults. Try killing them with imperial weapons.

Triple helldrake can be beaten. Happens all the time in tournaments.

Maybe weight of fire will carry the day, but my stuff doesn't remove their armor or FNP saves. Wounding easily helps. We'll see how much.

 VoidAngel wrote:
The Crimson Hunter is crap. I've tried to make it work...but it just dies. I might as well bring a -160pt list.

Yeah, most of it is the thing arriving at exactly the wrong time.

On top of unkillable Plague Marines...it's pretty bad. I really don't mind one. Three...? OK, you win - get your stuff off the table so I can play a game.

Have you tried the nightwing? It is one of the best eldar fliers currently. Ya I know its FW and that may not be your cup of tea but give it a shot proxying in your crimson hunter for one if you like, it can be found in IA:Aero so pirate away

Weight of fire is what 40k is about now. Quality is just icing on the cake. It's why terminators are garbage. So many lists can generated an unsavable amount of wounds against T4.

Martel732 wrote:
Weight of fire is what 40k is about now. Quality is just icing on the cake. It's why terminators are garbage. So many lists can generated an unsavable amount of wounds against T4.

Wel there's that and plasma is thrown around to any perky guardsmen that wants one

Yes, plasma spam is even worse for teqs, but weight of wounds does the trick as well.

Personally, I love FW stuff (well, except for the cost, utter crap quality, and shipping - but hey, why expect much for your $$$?).

It's not currently allowed in the escalation league, so...no joy. I find the Voidraven more survivable, and sometimes field that.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Going to ground prevents Righteous Zeal, but of course comes with disadvantages of its own.

Going to ground doesn't affect RZ. If you went to down, fail or pass, you'll either fall back or run towards the enemy respectively. If you read RZ, it's only effected by Pinning and Falling Back. GTG is not the same as pinning. Also they share a lot of similar effects they are two different rules.

That being said you are forced to run away from objectives either way. If you pass, you run towards the enemy; if you fail, you run towards your board edge.

A "good" loop hole around this, if you GTG to keep your Turn1 Drop-pod-Marines alive (from AP3 or better weapons) and you take a single would, you get the +1 to Cover Save AND you can assault normally the following turn. However, if you GTG and save all your wounds, you're looking at a Turn3-assault.

EDIT:
This is all lies. They FAQ'd it so RZ doesn't effect GTG and falling back units (instead of Pinned and failing back units). Do not believe my lies!

Saythings wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Going to ground prevents Righteous Zeal, but of course comes with disadvantages of its own.

Going to ground doesn't affect RZ.

Except it does, as per the FAQ. GW got tired of people trying to circumvent being Gone to Ground by Zealing away, so they FAQ'd it up. Can't be having any advantages from a Black Templars army-wide rule now, can we?

I hate it when I miss things in FAQs!! Haha.

Well, at least I can stay in my pods... LMAO! Jk. I can't decide if I'd ever even try to argue that tactic in a pick-up game or in a tournament setting. It's just too funny.

I swear I had a big post on this thread...

You did. I saw it. And I picked up most of my anti-meq rhetoric from 11th company. I originally thought the problem was BA, but they educated me.

Martel732 wrote:
You did. I saw it. And I picked up most of my anti-meq rhetoric from 11th company. I originally thought the problem was BA, but they educated me.

Couldn't have been the mods...they'd have told me.

I was largely poking fun at how dakkadakka seems to largely be arguments on the same few subjects that go nowhere now.

Yeah. 40K is somewhat operationally limited because GW won't publish internally balanced codices in general. CSM don't have a fast attack slot, they have a helldrake slot.

Saw that too. Probably modded for being off-topic or something. They're very...zealous. Er, I mean 'dedicated'.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah. 40K is somewhat operationally limited because GW won't publish internally balanced codices in general. CSM don't have a fast attack slot, they have a helldrake slot.

Nurgle bikers (or Icon'd Slaanesh bikers) would be amazeballs autotakes were Emperor Deathsaurus with spikes not in the same slot.

Yes, I have much respect for nurgle bikers. However, they don't single-handedly change an entire game's meta.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah. 40K is somewhat operationally limited because GW won't publish internally balanced codices in general. CSM don't have a fast attack slot, they have a helldrake slot.

Why does every book have to be "internally balanced"? They vary in power for certain units, its what makes one different from the other. Old Dark Angels assault marines were expensive because its not really a prime unit for DA. Did DA players complain? nope, they just didn't use them.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, I have much respect for nurgle bikers. However, they don't single-handedly change an entire game's meta.

Honestly Bad times (tm) were on the Horizon for MeQs since the Colossus showed up in the IG book. The Heldrake continued a trend that culminated in the Newdar, the ultimate middle finger to MeQs and anyone who tries 5e style lists in general.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah. 40K is somewhat operationally limited because GW won't publish internally balanced codices in general. CSM don't have a fast attack slot, they have a helldrake slot.

Why does every book have to be "internally balanced"? They vary in power for certain units, its what makes one different from the other. Old Dark Angels assault marines were expensive because its not really a prime unit for DA. Did DA players complain? nope, they just didn't use them.

It makes no sense on both a financial level and a hobbyist level not to have each slot in each army book be equally fieldable.

Did matt ward write the codex?don't forget they disagreed with rowboat girlyman which may have made our spiritual leige punish them for being awesome.

Da krimson barun wrote:
Did matt ward write the codex?don't forget they disagreed with rowboat girlyman which may have made our spiritual leige punish them for being awesome.

Ward was still mainly a LotR author back when the BT book was made.

It is just that old.

Martel732 wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah. 40K is somewhat operationally limited because GW won't publish internally balanced codices in general. CSM don't have a fast attack slot, they have a helldrake slot.

Why does every book have to be "internally balanced"? They vary in power for certain units, its what makes one different from the other. Old Dark Angels assault marines were expensive because its not really a prime unit for DA. Did DA players complain? nope, they just didn't use them.

It makes no sense on both a financial level and a hobbyist level not to have each slot in each army book be equally fieldable.

Why? Some armies good Elites and some don't, some good Heavies, etc. I almost can't figure out why Dark Eldar have anything more than Ravagers as heavies, they are supposed to run as a lightning fast raider army. If every book had the same availability for the same stuff, might as well go back to Rogue Trader when there were three armies and Orks were using bolters.

Well, internal balance is nice - because you don't then get total chaos when one ill-conceived kit hits the shelves.

The Terrordactyl is like nothing previously mentioned. It looked ridiculous when it first came out (still does, IMO). We expected a fighter plane, or maybe a possessed fighter plane...not something that it looks like it escaped from WHFB. But the rules were so compelling for an army sort of (arguably) in need of a boost that now they are practically compulsory. That's not "internal balance."

When one unit forces every other army to adapt - that's a hint that something is not quite right.

I still think that the predacon from hell needs a tail.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah. 40K is somewhat operationally limited because GW won't publish internally balanced codices in general. CSM don't have a fast attack slot, they have a helldrake slot.

Why does every book have to be "internally balanced"? They vary in power for certain units, its what makes one different from the other. Old Dark Angels assault marines were expensive because its not really a prime unit for DA. Did DA players complain? nope, they just didn't use them.

It makes no sense on both a financial level and a hobbyist level not to have each slot in each army book be equally fieldable.

Why? Some armies good Elites and some don't, some good Heavies, etc. I almost can't figure out why Dark Eldar have anything more than Ravagers as heavies, they are supposed to run as a lightning fast raider army. If every book had the same availability for the same stuff, might as well go back to Rogue Trader when there were three armies and Orks were using bolters.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm talking about internal balance.

Look at it this way. If two chaos armies fought each other, and one had Helldrakes and the other didn't, and one with them always won...something is wrong.

In my view, each slot in each army should have compelling, effective choices. This does not mean that all choice in all slots in all armies should be generic and interchangeable. It just means that some should not be SO much better than others that there is essentially no chance of seeing those other units show up in most lists.

 Kain wrote:

Da krimson barun wrote:
Did matt ward write the codex?don't forget they disagreed with rowboat girlyman which may have made our spiritual leige punish them for being awesome.

Ward was still mainly a LotR author back when the BT book was made.

It is just that old.

you mean when he was a decent author?He might have given the BT a nudge in the "right" direction.

 VoidAngel wrote:
Look at it this way. If two chaos armies fought each other, and one had Helldrakes and the other didn't, and one with them always won...something is wrong.

In my view, each slot in each army should have compelling, effective choices. This does not mean that all choice in all slots in all armies should be generic and interchangeable. It just means that some should not be SO much better than others that there is essentially no chance of seeing those other units show up in most lists.

That is not necessarily true. If one chaos player isn't even able to kill one flyer than it will always lose to a flyer. If the chaos player brought an Aegis for example then they can be decently ready. However the chaos drake is not as big and scary as everyone makes it (except when its spammed). Vendetta's laugh at all the flyers. Vendetta's used to be game changers (when they were skimmers)but, they eventually become killable and now no one complains about them. Same with necron flyers. Everything has a counter but no one knows them yet. In my meta I have never seen one even used but I have seen the tactics against them. If you have counter for AV12 flyers then you will be fine.