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ThePrimordial wrote: If Abnett or Mcneil do it I'm game. BTW there needs to be middle ground for the poll. I don't want to know everything about his past. But certain events: Implications of when and how he found out what he was, His trolling of the Void Dragon, relatively detailed backstories for his time as Jesus, Buddha and the like, What he thinks of his sons individually, What he thinks as he starts to notice himself fething up parenting more and more.
These kind of things.
Done, ty for suggestion....
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
I'd rather have more tidbits on his personality and general persona from those who dealt with him most closely. We see some of that in the Sigillite audio-drama, where we catch a glimpse of the Emperor as the somewhat naive idealist who envisions a humanity full of serious, hard-working, mature people who don't need to be ruled.
Getting more such glimpses at him from the perspective of the Primarchs, especially Horus, would be great.
Come into my web, said the spider to the fly.
Come rest your wings, and let us talk eye to eye.
For I am a spider, and you are the fly. Now that you are here, let us sit, and say hi.
But I have have no morsel to share, nor anything to eat. But wait, what is that stickiness upon your feet.
Ah now I have you, now I can eat. Now I can enjoy you, or store you as meat.
For I am the spider, and you are the fly. How else could it have gone, between one such as you, and one such as I.
I admit ; I googled "Umpa lumpa" and laughed like a maniac....
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
In my opinion, the Emperor of Mankind needs to stay mysterious, because, in the scope of the greater narrative, he isn't about being a tangible person. Like someone posted earlier, hes an examplar, the shining principle of the creative mind shaping his world for the better. He is humanity at its grandest made flesh. Like the chaos gods, whose interpretation not as persons, but as archetypal ideas/feelings that have grown sentient and wilfull, is easilier accepted by many people. I could go on about this without end, but im on a cell phone and typing is soooo slow. One last thing: Papa Nurgle is most certainly not the god of YOLO, and I can (and will) argue for that if needed
"The Crozius is the Imperium in a nutshell: pitiless authority, unquestioning zeal, and half understood technology encased within the form of a beatin' stick."
I admit ; I googled "Umpa lumpa" and laughed like a maniac....
Sorry for the deception, I couldn't resist posting it. At least you got a laugh out of it though.
Come into my web, said the spider to the fly.
Come rest your wings, and let us talk eye to eye.
For I am a spider, and you are the fly. Now that you are here, let us sit, and say hi.
But I have have no morsel to share, nor anything to eat. But wait, what is that stickiness upon your feet.
Ah now I have you, now I can eat. Now I can enjoy you, or store you as meat.
For I am the spider, and you are the fly. How else could it have gone, between one such as you, and one such as I.
I dont mind seeing him doing things like in Mechanicum but I dont want anything ever told from his point of view. In fact I want him to have as little screen time as possible, only appearing when the story is following a Primarch.
I would love to learn more about him but it is best when he is a mystery
KhornedBeef wrote: In my opinion, the Emperor of Mankind needs to stay mysterious, because, in the scope of the greater narrative, he isn't about being a tangible person. Like someone posted earlier, hes an examplar, the shining principle of the creative mind shaping his world for the better. He is humanity at its grandest made flesh. Like the chaos gods, whose interpretation not as persons, but as archetypal ideas/feelings that have grown sentient and wilfull, is easilier accepted by many people. I could go on about this without end, but im on a cell phone and typing is soooo slow. One last thing: Papa Nurgle is most certainly not the god of YOLO, and I can (and will) argue for that if needed
If he's not the god of #YOLO, what is he the God of?
If he's not the god of #YOLO, what is he the God of?
Nurgle embodies the very truth imperial citizens seek to forget by going YOLO, but, from his point of view, they got it all wrong anyways by fearing death in the first place. Nurgle is the god of decay, but also of acceptance thereof. His message is that everything ends, but also, on a more positive note, that from every ending comes new life. And those that turn to him in their suffering may actually be saved and granted life...in a way . So, YOLO is indeed denying his aspect as the god of regeneration. Embracing Nurgle would mean aknowledging death as another form, or at least transitionary state, of life.
Nurgle is kind of complicated imho, in that his personality doesn't reflect exactly the same mortal emotions that brought him into the world, compared to the other gods. At least, I understand him to be created through the emotions of those suffering, dying and pleading for salvation, most of which probably didn think "but it's k because it's the circle of life" at the same time. Though maybe I'm missing something about his creation because I haven't read any primary source on that.
Void_dragon is also right in way, since "overcoming adversity" is right there in the description of Nurgle's realm in the Codex, but it's also used as an ironic point that the most physically resistant legion, the Death Guard, turned to him for salvation because their bodys were failing, emphasizing that, in end, nothing is made to last forever, and everything's for Nurgle to claim.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/09 15:02:31
"The Crozius is the Imperium in a nutshell: pitiless authority, unquestioning zeal, and half understood technology encased within the form of a beatin' stick."
Those are the two worst authors you could have picked, especially McNeil. I enjoy some of his books, but he has no grasp of the continuity of the Horus Heresy, has a tendency for the worst hyperbole since Goto, and consistently paints the Emperor in the most negative light possible (Last Church, Outcast Dead).
Abnett would be better, with some great characterization and dialogue, but it would take place in a much more lighthearted version of the universe, there would be a lot of wet leopard purring, then he would run out of steam and ideas towards the end and quickly wrap up the book in a chapter with some bs series of events.
I wonder what it would be like if Alan Bligh, who wrote the story parts of the Forgeworld Badab War books and is now doing the WH30k Heresy campaigns, were to write a novel about the Emperor?
Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
>Raptors Lead the Way <
Those are the two worst authors you could have picked, especially McNeil. I enjoy some of his books, but he has no grasp of the continuity of the Horus Heresy,
Other than Outcast Dead, which errors are you thinking of?
And hey, it could be worse. He could be writing Guilliman as being capable of being in several places in the galaxy at the same time, as is a couple other author's wont.
has a tendency for the worst hyperbole since Goto,
Such as?
and consistently paints the Emperor in the most negative light possible (Last Church, Outcast Dead).
Me too...Dan has Abnettverse, and Mcneil tends to radicaly change stuff, but both are the best BL has too offer.
AdB is good but IMHO little overatted....
Thing is, McNeil can really add a depth with his phylosophical approach and most of his books are well balanced, although sometimes very boring when he goes too deep...
I noticed in his books there is always "a story, within a story" thing, which makes me giggle (every time:-), Abnett on the other hand uses action flickers too much, but also has the biggest word count (if you ignore wet lepard growl) amongst all of them...I mean he can really write when he
wants too, and I consider him "the king of BL"...
Gav Thorpe should write the Emperor.......
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Those are the two worst authors you could have picked, especially McNeil. I enjoy some of his books, but he has no grasp of the continuity of the Horus Heresy,
Other than Outcast Dead, which errors are you thinking of?
And hey, it could be worse. He could be writing Guilliman as being capable of being in several places in the galaxy at the same time, as is a couple other author's wont.
Isn't Outcast Dead enough? There are so many instances of continuity Please don't bypass the swear filter like this. Last warning. Reds8n in that book, that I consider it the most egregious violation of the established fiction ever printed by Black Library, on the level of tank-surfing backflipping terminators.
And yes, James Swallow is another inconsistent BL author (I would say this about all of them, honestly, except I haven't yet read anything by ADB that I've actively disliked... I'm sure it's only a matter of time). There is no rhyme or reason to Guilliman somehow managing to traverse the warpstorms and the barrier that was preventing the Angels from leaving Signus Prime, and appear on the planet while being undetected by no less than three other Legions. The only explanation I can think of is that at the end of the last short story about the Lion, he acquires some super trans-galactic teleportation computer and says he's off to meet Guilliman. Maybe that's how Guilliman did his little trick.
has a tendency for the worst hyperbole since Goto,
Such as?
Well, first he has an unarmed and unarmored Space Marine punch through a Custodian's power armor and rip his spine out (the Custodian's reduced reflexes are irrelevant), and then in the same book has a samurai guy actually somewhat hold his own against the same Space Marine.
and consistently paints the Emperor in the most negative light possible (Last Church, Outcast Dead).
As does just about everyone, to be honest.
Not to that extent, not even by a long-shot. At worst, the other authors paint the Emperor as enigmatic and perhaps a bit distant. With McNeil, it's all "molten core of violence and raw ambition" this, and "I don't care about horrendous human suffering right outside my door, am unaware that someone I tried to kill still lives there causing all that suffering, and then that same guy, despite by all accounts having the intellect of a rabid gorilla, can reverse engineer and even improve on my gene-splicing technology". Blah.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/10 09:27:32
I would like a story about the Emperor, similar to the short story, The Last Church.
I want it to show how the Emperor's "glorious reunification" was horrifying to those on the receiving end of a boltgun.
I don't necessarily want the Emperor to speak at all in the novel, but perhaps it could be told from one if his officers (similar to how Loken judged Horus's actions).
Doesn't that go without saying? I honestly always think of that Jet Li movie Hero, where the Emperor is initially portrayed as this evil guy who wants to conquer everyone, and has all these assassins after him, but one of them understands that the Emperor is doing this so he can unite the country into "One Land", so everyone can live in prosperity without further war.
Isn't Outcast Dead enough? There are so many instances of continuity in that book, that I consider it the most egregious violation of the established fiction ever printed by Black Library, on the level of tank-surfing backflipping terminators.
Well no, similar to how it is not entirely fair to make a broad sweeping statement about Abnett or ADB based on Know No Fear or The Emperor's Gift, respectively.
And yes, James Swallow is another inconsistent BL author (I would say this about all of them, honestly, except I haven't yet read anything by ADB that I've actively disliked... I'm sure it's only a matter of time). There is no rhyme or reason to Guilliman somehow managing to traverse the warpstorms and the barrier that was preventing the Angels from leaving Signus Prime, and appear on the planet while being undetected by no less than three other Legions. The only explanation I can think of is that at the end of the last short story about the Lion, he acquires some super trans-galactic teleportation computer and says he's off to meet Guilliman. Maybe that's how Guilliman did his little trick.
Who mentioned James Swallow?
Granted I have only read one book by him, the couple I had in mind were ADB and Abnett.
Well, first he has an unarmed and unarmored Space Marine punch through a Custodian's power armor and rip his spine out (the Custodian's reduced reflexes are irrelevant), and then in the same book has a samurai guy actually somewhat hold his own against the same Space Marine.
You're going to forgive me for not being exactly impressed.
That little showing doesn't hold up nearly as well as such showings like an Ultramarine jumping off of a building and one-shotting a Daemon Prince with a tiny dagger. A Daemon Prince that tossed a 300 ton Shadowsword so hard it exploded and pushed a fortress' fortified wall over. From Abnett's Know No Fear. Oh, from the same book, we of course have an Ultramarine shrugging off a bolter round to the face, and then killing an armoured Word Bearer with one round to the chest. Because as we all know the Word Bearers are a legion of seven foot tall guardsman, only a threat to the mighty Ultramarines when outnumbering them ten to one.
Nor does it really hold up to Logan Grimnar powering through Hyperion's telekinesis. The same telekinesis that of course stopped Angron's Black Sword dead in its tracks and shattered it. But of course, Logan Grimnar walks through Grey Knight Grandmasters like they are nothing, and doesn't give a gak about some silly psychic mumbo jumbo, he has greater psychic resistance than the mightiest servant of the Blood God. Of course. From ADB's The Emperor's Gift, naturally.
Then there is the entire clusterfeth that is the climactic battle of Battle of the Fang, lol.
Not to that extent, not even by a long-shot. At worst, the other authors paint the Emperor as enigmatic and perhaps a bit distant. With McNeil, it's all "molten core of violence and raw ambition" this, and "I don't care about horrendous human suffering right outside my door, am unaware that someone I tried to kill still lives there causing all that suffering, and then that same guy, despite by all accounts having the intellect of a rabid gorilla, can reverse engineer and even improve on my gene-splicing technology". Blah.
True, both Corax and Thunder McWarrior being genetic scientists superior to the Emperor is indeed pretty darn dumb, though like the perpetuals, I am getting the feeling that these sub plots are the direction of the studio itself, rather than individual writers. Though I admittedly have not read Outcast Dead, to be honest that seems to be your main issue with the man, lol.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/10 09:28:00
Not to that True, both Corax and Thunder McWarrior being genetic scientists superior to the Emperor is indeed pretty darn dumb, though like the perpetuals, I am getting the feeling that these sub plots are the direction of the studio itself, rather than individual writers. Though I admittedly have not read Outcast Dead, to be honest that seems to be your main issue with the man, lol.
Fair enough, the examples you bring up are pretty horrifying (although the dagger in question was a seemingly semi-sentient super ancient magic death blade akin to the one that felled Horus). Emperor's Gift was dumb, too, this cartoonish Lord Inquisitor threatens Exterminatus, Logan witch-punches him and a Grand Master, and everyone decides to just go home.
Anyway, the one interesting thing in Outcast Dead is that the
Spoiler:
Prophecy seen by that Astropath did two things:
1 - everything that happened was pre-destined and there is nothing anyone could have done to change things
2 - the Emperor knew exactly how the Heresy would play out, so Sanguinius' noble death was a calculated sacrifice, the Emperor's supposed emotional turmoil during his battle with Horus was instead a genuine struggle, Olanius' death was merely a much-needed distraction, and the perpetually grinding machine of human misery that is the Imperium was by design.
I'm not fond of #1, because it makes the whole setting pointless since essentially no one made any mistakes since the end result was inevitable. #2 is more interesting, but it clashes with the overall noble intentions we are told the Emperor had, going as far as planning to retreat along with his sons into the Palace to leave humanity to govern itself. Unless, of course, what we got was literally the best scenario possible, I which case no one should bitch about anything the Imperium does ever again.
Fair enough, the examples you bring up are pretty horrifying (although the dagger in question was a seemingly semi-sentient super ancient magic death blade akin to the one that felled Horus). Emperor's Gift was dumb, too, this cartoonish Lord Inquisitor threatens Exterminatus, Logan witch-punches him and a Grand Master, and everyone decides to just go home.
It was created from one such weapon, split into eight pieces, one of which belonged to some random cult leader dude, so I truly doubt the potence was similar.
I thought of also bringing up Kor Phaeron utterly demolishing Roboute Guilliman in single combat, but I am willing to accept that on the grounds that it makes Kor Phaeron look like a beastly manly man.
Yeah, TEG was pretty stupid. The first twoish thirds was really good, and it has probably my favorite depiction of a Daemon Primarch (Compare Battle of the Fang), but the last third was pretty bad. The worst thing though, is that ADB managed to take a concept like "Badass female Fenrisian Inquisitor" and makes it unbearable. Inquisitor Annika Jarlsdottyr is my single least favorite character in the canon, solely because any other character that falls under that archetype will forever be compared to that "witch", as the DakkaDakka censors would have me say. "Witch-punch", lol, that gave me a good laugh.
Anyway, the one interesting thing in Outcast Dead is that the
Spoiler:
Prophecy seen by that Astropath did two things:
1 - everything that happened was pre-destined and there is nothing anyone could have done to change things
2 - the Emperor knew exactly how the Heresy would play out, so Sanguinius' noble death was a calculated sacrifice, the Emperor's supposed emotional turmoil during his battle with Horus was instead a genuine struggle, Olanius' death was merely a much-needed distraction, and the perpetually grinding machine of human misery that is the Imperium was by design.
I'm not fond of #1, because it makes the whole setting pointless since essentially no one made any mistakes since the end result was inevitable. #2 is more interesting, but it clashes with the overall noble intentions we are told the Emperor had, going as far as planning to retreat along with his sons into the Palace to leave humanity to govern itself. Unless, of course, what we got was literally the best scenario possible, I which case no one should bitch about anything the Imperium does ever again.
I have to admit, the first one does sound pretty balls.
Spoiler:
The "You can't fight fate" plot type worked really well for McNeill in A Thousand Sons, but it seems like McNeill might have been trying to recycle that plot-line for the entire heresy (Or was instructed to by the editors, idk), and while it worked with the downfall of Magnus and his Legion, for the entire heresy it just gives the impression that no one can be really seen as being at fault for any of it because it was all predestined.
The Emperor's mythos is part of the 40K universe. If he's not on the golden throne, nothing we know remains true. His current state is a key aspect of this story. It won't change.
It was created from one such weapon, split into eight pieces, one of which belonged to some random cult leader dude, so I truly doubt the potence was similar.
Actually, not all athames are from pieces of the anathema (which is the sword that wounded Horus). In "Know No Fear", a SM sergeant shows one of the character a whole bag of athames that have been collected from cultists, and they seem DIY pieces. The one mentioned earlier belonged to a Word Bearer, so it might have been more special, surely the rest aren't from the anathema. And it stands to reason that this accounts for differences in value and power, too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/13 14:47:05
"The Crozius is the Imperium in a nutshell: pitiless authority, unquestioning zeal, and half understood technology encased within the form of a beatin' stick."
Omegus wrote: Well, it's not only McNeil gaking on the Emperor that bothers me. He was also given the task of depicting Horus' fall, and botched it tremendously.
So he has shitted on the Emperor and Horus, the two most important personages in the Horus Heresy.
Yeah, I can't defend False Gods' depiction of Horus' fall. No matter how much I like some of his books, that single scene will exist as a permanent black spot on his resume.
Fluff for the Fluff God! 
Sorry for the deception, I couldn't resist posting it. At least you got a laugh out of it though. 
. So, YOLO is indeed denying his aspect as the god of regeneration. Embracing Nurgle would mean aknowledging death as another form, or at least transitionary state, of life.
>Raptors Lead the Way < 
