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It seems a bit of a childish idea for a thread really, discussing the best way to market things is certificate a good discussion because you can argue that discounts and offers and giveaways and free rules actually make you more money in the long term, but this just sounds like some sort of make a wish thread.

In which case, I would turn my back on both wargaming and world peace and say that I think beer should be capped at ten cents a bottle, women should have three tits, and all vegetables should taste like pizza.

 Peregrine wrote:

3) Price proportional to quality. I'm willing to pay a lot for good models (I play DKoK!), but I expect them to be good models. The perfect example here is finecast: garbage product, highest prices. But even GW's plastic kits are guilty of this to a degree, when I look at things like the Nephilim I can't imagine being willing to buy it at half the price. Design and aesthetic quality count almost as much as production quality.

I don't disagree here, but simply because you don't like a kit doesn't make it a 'bad' kit. I'm not a huge fan of the Khornemower, but I've seen one assembled and on sprue, and it's a very well produced kit. For all the faults Finecast has, to discount it all as "garbage" is false; a well poured, properly controlled Finecast model is a good thing.

Rules, especially core rules, should be free for two reasons:

1) It removes a big barrier to entry for new players. Put yourself in the position of a potential new 40k player: you've got your $150 starter set, $50 worth of paints and other supplies, and now you need to spend $100+ on rulebooks. This is often the point where you put it all back and decide to spend your money on something else. Giving the rules away for free lets people try the game (potentially with proxy models) and discover that they like it before being scared away by the price tag.

So if you've bought the starter set, you already have the core rules. You're right in that you have to purchase the army books to build full forces, but remember (and I think a lot of us forget this) there is a TON of intro game included in those starter boxes, including customized beginner scenarios that walk people through the game, custom publications that fit the models included in that starter, etc. To say your entry barrier is $300 plus is completely disingenuous; the starter box and a starter paint set is all you 'really' need to get into the game, and as a beginner, that starter box would afford you a fair amount of play. Again, I think this is often forgotten because SO FEW OF US ever use the starter box scenarios, etc.

2) It makes it easier to update the rules. If you're depending on selling rulebooks as part of your business plan it's a lot harder to keep everything updated. You can't just change rules and release them for free because you're interfering with your sales, you have to wait until you have a new book to sell. See FW for the perfect example, where rules are scattered all over the place and often out of date because rule updates are tied to the publishing schedule, and you get stuff like the new Apocalypse book containing a few non-Apocalypse units just because they needed updates. Compare this to MTG where all of the rules are available freely online and updates are made when updates are needed without having to worry about the sales impact. The result is that 40k's rules are a joke, while MTG's rules are clear, free of loopholes and ambiguity, and always up to date.

That's really odd, because Privateer doesn't seem to have a problem issuing updates with their non-free rules, and I believe their ruleset is considered to be "clear, free of loopholes and ambiguity, and always up to date." And honestly, I don't think GW even cares about this. They've made it abundantly clear their intent for 40K/WHFB is for the casual, narrative gamer to play while drinking some beers with his pals. I think if one of the primary purposes of your game is competitive, tournament play (like M:tG or Warmahordes) then it does behoove you to have a 'living' rules set; that still doesn't mean it needs to be free.

The only thing I wish I had done with my money is not spent it on the armies I no longer play (Tau, Orks, Cygnar, Tyranids, Skorne), and had not spent so much on the armies I have currently. Granted I got them for at most a third of their retail cost, but I don't need the 60 extra Chaos Space Marines or the 100+ Guardsmen I have sitting on my shelves.

 mattyrm wrote:
In which case, I would turn my back on both wargaming and world peace and say that I think beer should be capped at ten cents a bottle, women should have three tits, and all vegetables should taste like pizza.

I like this idea!

I have a few basic "rules" that I feel would be most conducive to better sales and a higher number of new players.

1. Starter sets should have 2 sizes: $50 and $100. The smaller set would just be a basic 5v5 with only the basic rules involved(movement, shooting, combat, no USR's). The larger set would include the mini books as they do now, with full rules, and a better variety of units that make use of some of the more common USR's.

2. No single unit should cost more than $50. I feel that moving beyond that makes it a harder decision for newer players. I'd rather have 100 players buying a $50 set than 50 players buying $100 sets. The more players there are, the more people will start multiple armies and overall sales will be higher.

3. A "full" size army shouldn't NEED to cost more than $300. Injection molding is meant to crank out volume, and by dropping the cost per set that volume can actually be met. I'm not confident that GW's current markup on plastic kits is streamlined for volume.

4. Rules should not be the product. Rule books and codices should be back at their old $20-25 marks(full rule books at $50). If you want to sell models, write rules that draw in players. At the same time, power creep for pushing the flavor of the month models needs to be avoided. Not everyone wants to start EVERY army, and those who bought last months should not be penalized against this months buyers.

5. Supplies should be pushing model sales. GW is not a paint company. Their paints should be sold at a minor mark up. Compare to Vallejo who is solely a paint company, and they sell more paint for less money in better packaging.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

3) Price proportional to quality. I'm willing to pay a lot for good models (I play DKoK!), but I expect them to be good models. The perfect example here is finecast: garbage product, highest prices. But even GW's plastic kits are guilty of this to a degree, when I look at things like the Nephilim I can't imagine being willing to buy it at half the price. Design and aesthetic quality count almost as much as production quality.

I don't disagree here, but simply because you don't like a kit doesn't make it a 'bad' kit. I'm not a huge fan of the Khornemower, but I've seen one assembled and on sprue, and it's a very well produced kit. For all the faults Finecast has, to discount it all as "garbage" is false; a well poured, properly controlled Finecast model is a good thing.

Rules, especially core rules, should be free for two reasons:

1) It removes a big barrier to entry for new players. Put yourself in the position of a potential new 40k player: you've got your $150 starter set, $50 worth of paints and other supplies, and now you need to spend $100+ on rulebooks. This is often the point where you put it all back and decide to spend your money on something else. Giving the rules away for free lets people try the game (potentially with proxy models) and discover that they like it before being scared away by the price tag.

So if you've bought the starter set, you already have the core rules. You're right in that you have to purchase the army books to build full forces, but remember (and I think a lot of us forget this) there is a TON of intro game included in those starter boxes, including customized beginner scenarios that walk people through the game, custom publications that fit the models included in that starter, etc. To say your entry barrier is $300 plus is completely disingenuous; the starter box and a starter paint set is all you 'really' need to get into the game, and as a beginner, that starter box would afford you a fair amount of play. Again, I think this is often forgotten because SO FEW OF US ever use the starter box scenarios, etc.

2) It makes it easier to update the rules. If you're depending on selling rulebooks as part of your business plan it's a lot harder to keep everything updated. You can't just change rules and release them for free because you're interfering with your sales, you have to wait until you have a new book to sell. See FW for the perfect example, where rules are scattered all over the place and often out of date because rule updates are tied to the publishing schedule, and you get stuff like the new Apocalypse book containing a few non-Apocalypse units just because they needed updates. Compare this to MTG where all of the rules are available freely online and updates are made when updates are needed without having to worry about the sales impact. The result is that 40k's rules are a joke, while MTG's rules are clear, free of loopholes and ambiguity, and always up to date.

That's really odd, because Privateer doesn't seem to have a problem issuing updates with their non-free rules, and I believe their ruleset is considered to be "clear, free of loopholes and ambiguity, and always up to date." And honestly, I don't think GW even cares about this. They've made it abundantly clear their intent for 40K/WHFB is for the casual, narrative gamer to play while drinking some beers with his pals. I think if one of the primary purposes of your game is competitive, tournament play (like M:tG or Warmahordes) then it does behoove you to have a 'living' rules set; that still doesn't mean it needs to be free.

I'm going to have to agree with this, PP does a great job of keeping the rules as clear as possible and fixing issues with rules on the fly, They even have folks on their forums to do just this.

I like that PP has the basic starter rules for free on their website, and I am totally ok with them charging for the full rules set (mostly because its a very "reasonable" price).

As to what I would love to see from a game company.....

1. Clear intent as to what kind of game you are. (competitive vs bear and pretzels)
2. Bundles.
3. FLGS support.
4. MARKETING (get yer darn name out there).
5. Interesting models and factions (no rock, paper, scissors).
6. Relatively low cost of entry.
7. Open Communication with Customers.
8. Painting, modeling, terrain for your game tutorials.

I just wish things were cheaper all around. I don't care about bulk discounts or free rules or anything - just don't charge such ludicrous prices for hunks of unassembled plastic. I don't get it!

 darefsky wrote:

As to what I would love to see from a game company.....

1. Clear intent as to what kind of game you are. (competitive vs bear and pretzels)
2. Bundles.
3. FLGS support.
4. MARKETING (get yer darn name out there).
5. Interesting models and factions (no rock, paper, scissors).
6. Relatively low cost of entry.
7. Open Communication with Customers.
8. Painting, modeling, terrain for your game tutorials.

That sounds like a really interesting game style. How is it played?

 frozenwastes wrote:

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:I shouldn't have to pay for rules. Or, to phrase it in a less "butt-hurt arts major" way, I shouldn't have to pay $200 to simply buy into your game. I love to see the full rulebook free online, but I would settle for some quick-start rules for free and/or lumped in with the starter bundle.

This.

Though I will say that we can't except GW to adopt this approach any time soon. People don't stick with 40k/WFB or LOTR long term. They tend to discover girls and beer and move on to other things. A rare few of us are lifers and even then, we may move on to other company's products. So GW needs to get as much money from each of us as they can before we quit. They need the starter products to be a higher price so the average spend per customer goes up faster than the rate of customer loss lowers things.

I stopped using the rules GW provides quite some time ago. I play lower model count games and have found my models feel far more valuable as a result.

Haha me and my friends discovered it in reverse, we now use beer and 40k to move on from our wives

Or even a simple discount when you buy a unit,a over 30 euro tank/monster and a hero.It would encourage people to buy more at once.Which they probably like us doing.I bet you they have party every time someone buys Seige of angels redoubt because the marketors said it would never sell.(They haven't had many partys)

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

 darefsky wrote:

As to what I would love to see from a game company.....

1. Clear intent as to what kind of game you are. (competitive vs bear and pretzels)
2. Bundles.
3. FLGS support.
4. MARKETING (get yer darn name out there).
5. Interesting models and factions (no rock, paper, scissors).
6. Relatively low cost of entry.
7. Open Communication with Customers.
8. Painting, modeling, terrain for your game tutorials.

That sounds like a really interesting game style. How is it played?

No idea. PP does a few of these really well..... but no one out there does them all......

I wish they had material options, I'd pay more for a metal version vs finecast version.

I'd love to be able to buy pre-painted models painted like the 'evay metal studio.

If GW is listening, I'd pay 4x the price for a metal model painted like what is in WD.

My 0.02 cents, I like what GW is doing and how they handle themselves and the prices they have set for their models. Before you drop a child out of Ur bum let me explain why.

1. It shows creators and up and coming companies the money that can be made IF your games are successful

2. Due to all the threads created about how unhappy people who Really play are with what GW is doing is great! Again helps new companies be aware of what the community wants from a game system/company, and that being involved with us intern influences us to spend more money to help support a company who in turn supports us!

3. Price. What is fair and what WE are willing to pay for what we need and want. How to set your prices and what to expect.


Now I’m sure everything I just typed has its flaws or loop holes. I didn’t mean for it to be a business plan just a guide. GW is helping other companies learn what not to do. GW was doing it right in the beginng and then slowly lost there way. I will agree that allot of GW's new stuff is amazing and I believe worth some of its value but not 100% of what they are asking.

I run on night out vs box of toys. A box set should come to about the equal of 5 pints and a Rat Burger so £20 ish.

 darefsky wrote:

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

 darefsky wrote:

As to what I would love to see from a game company.....

1. Clear intent as to what kind of game you are. (competitive vs bear and pretzels)
2. Bundles.
3. FLGS support.
4. MARKETING (get yer darn name out there).
5. Interesting models and factions (no rock, paper, scissors).
6. Relatively low cost of entry.
7. Open Communication with Customers.
8. Painting, modeling, terrain for your game tutorials.

That sounds like a really interesting game style. How is it played?

No idea. PP does a few of these really well..... but no one out there does them all......

Privateer Press does Bear vs Pretzels really well? How do the poor pretzels stand up against bears?

 Alfndrate wrote:

 darefsky wrote:

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

 darefsky wrote:

As to what I would love to see from a game company.....

1. Clear intent as to what kind of game you are. (competitive vs bear and pretzels)
2. Bundles.
3. FLGS support.
4. MARKETING (get yer darn name out there).
5. Interesting models and factions (no rock, paper, scissors).
6. Relatively low cost of entry.
7. Open Communication with Customers.
8. Painting, modeling, terrain for your game tutorials.

That sounds like a really interesting game style. How is it played?

No idea. PP does a few of these really well..... but no one out there does them all......

Privateer Press does Bear vs Pretzels really well? How do the poor pretzels stand up against bears?

No idea but I'm sure it's manageable under feat turn..... Spelling issues aside though they do a lot well. GW does a couple. Hopefully someone will figure out the whole package some day.

All games should have a core starter set with forces for both sides and core rules at the $50-$100 US price point. This would be a loss leader, but if no one has the starter, they probably aren't going to be playing the game and buy more stuff anyway.

I think what is so amazing about the hobby right now is that going out onto the internet and looking up miniature wargaming is like going to an art fair. There's so many interesting things popping up because democratization of the means of production has made it easier for small companies to proliferate.

That said, my wargaming money spends like I am at an art fair: I am stingy with it unless I really like something, in which case I don't mind paying a premium. I prefer to pay higher prices to small companies and individuals, rather than larger companies. I think larger companies like GW benefit from an economy of scale, and I would prefer to see lower prices. If I can get beautiful boutique artwork for the same price as a mass-produced model, why buy the mass-produced model?

If I am really honest with myself when it comes to price, any price for a single ~28mm human-sized model in metal above $5 gives me pause. Once it reaches $5 I start shopping around and considering my options. I'll pay above $5 for sure, but that is the line where I start really evaluating a product. Below $5 I'll buy it without thinking about it if I like the way it looks.

When it comes to mass units, like 10+ models, I prefer a combined, multi-pose set 'roundabouts $3/model. Lower than $3/model and I am very happy. Higher than $3/model and I start looking around for options. At $5/model a box set faces stiff competition because at that price one can compose the desired unit out of individual metal models at a similar price.

Overall, I prefer plastic injection molded models that are multi-part kits with extra options on the sprue, but I don't want to pay for extra options. That with GW pisses me off. I don't want to pay a premium to get parts I might want to use. For me, spare bits are like curb appeal when it comes to buying a house. It doesn't bump the value up, but the product gets another tick in the Pros column. If a product should be $4/model, but is sold at $5-$6/model because of the "bits," I won't buy it on principle.

The gold standard for me is Perry Miniatures plastic box sets. The Perry Brothers do just about everything right. Large box sets of beautiful models that are well detailed, well cast, and well laid out on the sprue. The models come in at something under $2/model in most cases, which is a fantastic value, and the sprues always have extra useful bits. I emphasize useful because they are generally bits you can use with other models, great for the bits box. As icing on the cake, Perry plastics also assemble very easily with very clever design in terms of interchangeability.

For example, the Perry Confederate box set has 5 models on a sprue with two sets of arms for each model (shouldered rifle and charging). Within the charging arms, even though the hands are attached to the rifle, three different poses are interchangeable and the other two are interchangeable with each other. So the arms are not paired off A set, B set, C set, D set, E set; rather there are three different B sets and two different A sets. Any B left arm can go with any B right arm. Big bonus.

The intent of this thread seemed to be aimed toward the entire wargaming hobby. It appears instead to be pretty much "I wish GW was like this" with PP and other brands brought into the discussion mostly as contrasts to GW.

The fact is that nearly everything I could want in tabletop gaming already exists, you've just got to leave the big boys behind. .
1) Rulesets that are reasonably priced: Reaper, Mantic, Ganesha, Battletech, etc
2) Fast-playing, rules-lite games with unit creation mechanics so I can use any miniatures I want:Song of Blades and Heroes, Tomorrow's war Mech Attack, etc, etc,
3) To not have to pay much more (a small up charge compensating for less production is understandable) for characters than line troops if they are the same size: Almost any company other than GW and PP.
4) Reasonably priced Plastic kits: Perry, Mantic, Gripping Beast, Warlord, etc, etc...
5) Affordably priced basic metal figures (less than 4 bucks each). EM4, Megaminis, Old Glory, Perry, Black Tree Design, etc, etc.
7) High Quality metal and resin figures that are still reasonably priced: Reaper, Heresy, and too many others to list.

6) For more people to look outside of the "BIG" gaming companies and discover the wonder of products made by smaller and independent gaming companies: A fella can dream can't he....

weeble1000 wrote:
I
The gold standard for me is Perry Miniatures plastic box sets. The Perry Brothers do just about everything right. Large box sets of beautiful models that are well detailed, well cast, and well laid out on the sprue. The models come in at something under $2/model in most cases, which is a fantastic value, and the sprues always have extra useful bits. I emphasize useful because they are generally bits you can use with other models, great for the bits box. As icing on the cake, Perry plastics also assemble very easily with very clever design in terms of interchangeability.

Agreed. Perry is probably the top of the heap, but they and other manufacturers have blown the lid of the idea that multipose plastic kits are so expensive to manufacture that GW prices are required. If I hadn't had so much luck finding cheap metal medieval figures, I'd have a stack of Perry boxes on my desk right now.