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The Emperor spilt some perpetual into his tank accidentally.

Graphite wrote:
Did they really name an immortal Old Person?

It's actually a reference to someone in actual world history, but I'm forgetting who. They did the same thing in Prospero Burns.

i am quite enjoying the book...

i don't have a problem with Perpetuals, and have enjoyed the way they've been written...
i like that none of them seem very happy about their immortality, and pretty much just seem to want a rest...
in Vulkan's case, it makes an interesting foil to Curze's sadism...

the bits about Istvaan V, from the Salamanders' side, are what make the book great, for me...
the Dropsite Massacre is such an iconic moment, as the Primarchs true loyalties are revealed, and the depths of the Heresy understood for the first time...
i can't get enough of it...
the only thing i'm looking forward to more is the Siege of Terra...

anyway, i like the way the series is progressing, and have enjoyed EVERY book so far...
i don't understand why so many people get their panties in a bunch over the fluff...
it's only make believe...
i'm just happy that writers get to create these fantasies for us...

cheers
jah

****Spoilers, yo****




As others have pointed out, its eluded to that Grammaticus' next encounter with Vulkan will be to kill him so that he doesn't end up as "guardian of the gate," or something vague like that. His goal in the book is to capture a super powerful relic of the emperor, which he does. Presumably that has the power to end Vulkan.

Parallel to Grammaticus, we have the story of Vulkan and Kurze. The author seems to be building them up as opposites, yet with Kurze testing/taunting Vulkan that he is every bit the killer and monster that Kurze is. Vulkan passes each test of his values, but starts to slip towards the end, only being saved seemingly by the emperor. Without this intervention, Vulkan likely would have killed Kurze, thus validating him (martyrdom seems to be Kurze's primarch trait ).

The impression I got was that Vulkan is built up as the most human of the primarchs. Much of his story focuses on his attachment to his sons and his need to protect humanity. As others have mentioned, it's possible that this is his "grounding to the earth," which makes him a perpetual. It seems awfully convenient that Kurze spends the whole story failing to make him a monster, simultaneously killing him again and again, and that we're told Grammaticus is seeking to sever his connection "to the earth."

As to being a perpetual making Vulkan a Mary Sue, I think that's entirely missing the point. Towards the end of the book, Vulkan comments to Kurze that he's always been the physically strongest of the primarchs and that he has always held back in sparring. He's also a total push over when it comes to protecting people. While he may be unkillable, the story line we're enjoying isn't "who is the toughest," it's an epic. Maybe if Vulkan was in the role of Russ as the executioner would his immortality seem excessive, but as the guy who just wants to return home and start a farm, it is fitting.

Laslty, with people complaining about perpetuals... We don't yet know how the series will end. Things have been mixed up and changed but there are still a ton of books to be written / read. I think people should just focus on trying to enjoy what we're being given instead of whining.

Looks like a have a book i need to read. Already a fan of salamanders, guess vulcan is the offspring of angry hulk and wolverine.

... or perhaps GW should leave well enough alone and stop changing traits to characters they've established over the past 20 years?

If a character is immortal, and that character is some kind of warrior-figure (which, let's face it, all Primarchs are), then that character loses all dramatic tension. You know that the character is never going to die on the page in any way that is permanent. Or even suffer an injury that is more than a temporary, minor inconvenience.

That Vulkan is strongly supportive of humanity makes sense, as this has been reflected in Salamanders fluff since the beginning. He doesn't need to be immortal to be this way.

And, actually, since this is a telling of the Horus Heresy, we *do* know exactly how the story will end. Of the very few things that are considered "canon" to the setting by GW, the events of the Heresy are one of them.

Perhaps this is their segue into advancing the storyline? Wishful thinking I know, but I badly want to see the Big E go somewhere - either die and get it over with, or disconnect from the throne and heal up and begin a new era of absolutely epic warfare.

It's a setting, not a story. Nothing ever really changes in the 40K setting. Names might change, a fictional planet might get blown up, another fictional planet gets discovered. New Hive and Forge Worlds are introduced, and so on and so forth.

Nothing actually *happens* in the over-arching story of 40K. The names might change (Chapter Master So-and-so of the Ultrablue Marines Marines Chapter dies, and is succeeded by Chapter Master Whats-His-Face, who happens to have an identical statline...) but everything else stays exactly the same.

 Psienesis wrote:
... or perhaps GW should leave well enough alone and stop changing traits to characters they've established over the past 20 years?

It's not as if Vulkan had much a character at all to begin with. He was practically a blank slate. People barely even knew whether he survived the dropsite massacre. The character changes are more of a filling out the blanks rather than retconning established background information about him. Like the Khan and Ferrus Manus, Vulkan can do with a little time in the spotlight.

Sounds like they're trying to take some of the grim darkness out of the setting.

For one, Vulkan is probably still alive in the "present" in any case. No surprise if he can simply regenerate every time he takes a mortal wound.

Second, if the Emperor is a Perpetual, then if the Golden Throne fails, the Astronomican will presumably go out while the Emperor is rebooting, which would cause havoc and fragment the Imperium. But after that, if he acted decisively enough, he could effectively begin a second Great Crusade if he acted quickly. Of course everything could go completely wrong in the meantime...

I feel like picking up the book now in any case.

Let's not forget that the real reason for things like this is to extend the run of the HH series.

That said, I like this book and this idea.

I wonder if things like this and the 13th company are setting up for a Warhammer 50k setting

Enron wrote:
Not all Primarchs are true immortals in the sense they cannot be killed. Ferrus Mannus/Sanguinious/ possibly papa smurf and Horus are indications that primarchs can in fact "die".

What makes Vulcan unique amongst the Primarchs is that he is truly unkillable ie. complete dismemberment will not stop him from healing.

There is also fluff indicating that some Primarchs are not immortal. I believe there is a passage in the space wolves codex where Leman Russ indicates that his "Lifes breath is almost spent..." What that means is up for interpretation however I think that he was saying that he was really old and was going to die soon.

Well, according to at least one of the Space Marine codexs, Papa Smurf is possibly healing in stasis, from a mortal wound. So read into that what you will.

Immortals have been in 40k since the start, people should stop being upset about a mere name change, case in point "illuminati"

The Sensei and the Illuminati were of a different breed. Background actors and antagonists (not exactly villains) more often than they were protagonists. The =I= spent a lot of time, in those days, chasing them down for their own purposes.

@Jojo - Great Post.

 Psienesis wrote:
... or perhaps GW should leave well enough alone and stop changing traits to characters they've established over the past 20 years?
.

I think "established over the past 20 years" is pretty....generous. Before the Black Library Horus Heresy books, there was, for all intents and purposes, a simple "outline" for the heresy. These characters were hardly defined. Hell, Lorgar's character has evolved a ton from First Heretic to where we are now, and seeing that character growth is awesome.

Concerning Guilliman in statis - Angel Exterminatus showed us that people can heal in status, if not very slowly.

Concerning Perpetuals - Vulkan Lives makes it pretty clear that Grammaticus has a means to kill Vulkan. Maybe only perpetuals can kill other perpetuals?

I actually love all the stories that are coming out now with the Iron Hands, Sallies, and Ravens working together in these small splinter cells. I think we've learned more about those three chapters in how they interact THAT way than in anything else.

Ladies and gents need to keep up with these books.

Gramticus is in Mark of calth, all I'm gonna say about that
Deamons can kill perpetuals, oll is terrified of.this happening, anything that destroys a soul can also kill them, a bullet can also kill them, but from that sort of thing they are reborn.

Vulkan is unique in that he does not get reborn, he comes back as is.

 Formosa wrote:
Ladies and gents need to keep up with these books.

Gramticus is in Mark of calth, all I'm gonna say about that
Deamons can kill perpetuals, oll is terrified of.this happening, anything that destroys a soul can also kill them, a bullet can also kill them, but from that sort of thing they are reborn.

Vulkan is unique in that he does not get reborn, he comes back as is.

Oh thats right! I totally forgot about that!

Good call.

There's also time travelling. So yeah. Where's JJ Abrams...

You should see the primarchs as 1/20th of the emperor.. They all have some personal traits and skills the emperor does... Like Aggron is super uber duper strong, Fulgrim is uber fast, Lorgar a masterfull speaker, the Lion a master tactician, Magnus a master Psyker..... So why shouldnt Vulkan inherrit this? It is a bit on the far overpowered side yes... but still...

Also,... dont get the illusion that the writer gets a 100% say in how the story has to go... I could almost guarantee that GW gives a big red line which they HAVE to follow. And also the book will be rated and checked for every inch of paper.. No way that GW lets the writers decide how their universe will unfold...

Also,... dont get the illusion that the writer gets a 100% say in how the story has to go... I could almost guarantee that GW gives a big red line which they HAVE to follow. And also the book will be rated and checked for every inch of paper.. No way that GW lets the writers decide how their universe will unfold...

Black Library specifically has no such controls placed on it. While the HH series has more studio control than any other series they've produced... GW is fairly hands-off when it comes to BL titles.

Are Perpetual part of the Cabal?

VampireDeLaVega wrote:
Are Perpetual part of the Cabal?

They possess the technology to make people perpetuals. I know that.
A large portion of their human members are probably perpetuals, but not all perpetuals are part of the cabal.
The Cabal is primarily Eldar if I recall.

 cincydooley wrote:
@Jojo - Great Post.

 Psienesis wrote:
... or perhaps GW should leave well enough alone and stop changing traits to characters they've established over the past 20 years?
.

I think "established over the past 20 years" is pretty....generous. Before the Black Library Horus Heresy books, there was, for all intents and purposes, a simple "outline" for the heresy. These characters were hardly defined. Hell, Lorgar's character has evolved a ton from First Heretic to where we are now, and seeing that character growth is awesome.

Concerning Guilliman in statis - Angel Exterminatus showed us that people can heal in status, if not very slowly.

Concerning Perpetuals - Vulkan Lives makes it pretty clear that Grammaticus has a means to kill Vulkan. Maybe only perpetuals can kill other perpetuals?

I actually love all the stories that are coming out now with the Iron Hands, Sallies, and Ravens working together in these small splinter cells. I think we've learned more about those three chapters in how they interact THAT way than in anything else.

My point on Guilliman wasn't just that he's healing in stasis, but the fact his wound was sufficient to kill a Primarch yet he's 'getting better'. As in, having Vulkan do whatever regeneration he does (haven't read the book), isn't completely out of left field.

GW likes their dangling threads in this regards because it lets people have 'more fun' with the universe.

Want your own legion? Check, we've left two blank for you
Want your primarch to come back? Check, left that open for you with several of them
The universe will end if the Emporer is unplugged? Yup, have that for you
The universe is saved if the Emporer is unplugged? Yup, have that for you

It is a soap opera, and people come back from the dead all the time in soap operas (no matter how ludicrous it sounds).

Guilliman is not, categorically, "getting better". People, in-universe, believe that he is getting better. There's a difference here, because the belief that he's getting better underpins the faith the Imperial citizenry have in the divinity of the God-Emperor and His chosen sons, not an observed, definite event that indicates that he *is* healing.

GW wrote it this way, on purpose, so that they (or anyone, really) could have it go either way. Maybe Rowboat will get off that chair someday. Maybe he won't. This sort of open-ended situation is how most 40K events and themes are written, so that the studio and players can take things as they like them, and then go on with their own stories about them.

This has begun to change in recent publications, though, with characters previously listed as "MIA" or "fate unknown" being established as categorically dead (or not).

I think "established over the past 20 years" is pretty....generous. Before the Black Library Horus Heresy books, there was, for all intents and purposes, a simple "outline" for the heresy. These characters were hardly defined. Hell, Lorgar's character has evolved a ton from First Heretic to where we are now, and seeing that character growth is awesome.

You said it before I could. They are currently fleshing out and evolving what we already knew about the heresy. Things will change from what we already knew. Based on BL's track record with the series, I am ok with that.

 Psienesis wrote:
Guilliman is not, categorically, "getting better". People, in-universe, believe that he is getting better. There's a difference here, because the belief that he's getting better underpins the faith the Imperial citizenry have in the divinity of the God-Emperor and His chosen sons, not an observed, definite event that indicates that he *is* healing.

GW wrote it this way, on purpose, so that they (or anyone, really) could have it go either way. Maybe Rowboat will get off that chair someday. Maybe he won't. This sort of open-ended situation is how most 40K events and themes are written, so that the studio and players can take things as they like them, and then go on with their own stories about them.

This has begun to change in recent publications, though, with characters previously listed as "MIA" or "fate unknown" being established as categorically dead (or not).

That was my point. He could be getting better, which would make Vulcan not out of left field, or he could be going no where, hence my unplugged good/bad.

As I noted, ambiguous so that it reads like a soap opera to try and keep folks interested.

Haven't read the book yet, So what has Vulkan been doing since the horus heresy?

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Haven't read the book yet, So what has Vulkan been doing since the horus heresy?

Like, presently in the heresy? Or presently in the 40k timeline?

If the former, getting tortured by Konrad Curze.

If the latter, missing. His brosefs are searching for him.

 Kain wrote:

Because Vulkan is better than you?

This line of reasoning is actually fairly accurate, albeit perhaps not intended as worded.

Vulkan, before this book, was basically just "black Ferrus Manus" with some of Sanguinius' niceness.

He had little that made him distinct from his brothers.

Now, he does.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Because Vulkan is better than you?

This line of reasoning is actually fairly accurate, albeit perhaps not intended as worded.

Vulkan, before this book, was basically just "black Ferrus Manus" with some of Sanguinius' niceness.

He had little that made him distinct from his brothers.

Now, he does.

Does he have character depth that makes him distinct, or just some stupid external thing (like being a perpetual)?

I haven't had the chance to read it (I must ask whether anybody thought it was a good read? Well at least as far as Black Library goes. I'm ambivelent on getting it. For some odd reason my favourite chapter has always been the Salamanders, I blame Flamers and Meltaguns).

From an assumption, the book probably makes him more complex simply because there is very little fluff about Salamanders and even less about Vulkan. They've always been one of the more often ignored chapters/primarchs. Anyways I think the other point was simply that most guys have an iconic thing that makes them unique. Horus the ambition, Magnus the psyker powers. Something from their father. If this is the same as the emperor then it could be the way he has gained a bit from him (you could argue the love of humanity but the Emperor is shrouded and hard to understand as though he is tired of humanity).