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2013/08/11 18:47:03
Subject: Team Germany now the world's best competitive WHFB team!
Black Orc Warboss: Talisman of Endurance, Enchanted Shield, 195 Savage Orc Great Shaman: Level4, Big Waaagh!, Crown of Command, Sceptre of Stability, 255 Night Goblin Great Shaman: Level4, Little Waaagh!, Dispell scroll, 200 Savage Orc Big Boss: BSB, Great Weapon, Morks Spirit Totem, 204 Savage Orc Shaman: Level2, Big Waaagh!, Lucky Shrunken Head, 155 Goblin-Gargboss on Giant Wolf: Light Armour, Shield, Warrior Bane, Dragonbane Gem, 61 Goblin-Gargboss on Giant Wolf: Light Armour, Shield, Tormentor Sword, Dragonhelm, 66 37 Savage Orcs Big 'uns: FCG, 2xHw, 442 2x 20 Night Goblins: Musician, 3 x Night Goblin Fanatic, Short Bow, 145 2x 1 Orc Boar Chariot: 85 2x 1 Goblin Wolf Chariot: 50 2x 1 Goblin Rock Lobber: 85 2x 1 Mangler Squig: 65 2x 1 Goblin Doom Diver Catapult: 80 Total: 2598
Sito "kasimir" Vatthauer, High Elves
Spoiler:
Archmage: General, Level 4, Death, Book of Hoeth, Crown of Command, Golden Crown of Atrazar, 320 Archmage: Level 4, Shadow, Power Scroll, Khaine's Ring of Fury, 280 Lothern Sea Helm: BSB, Standard of Discipline, 140 29 Archers: FCG, 320 2x 5 Ellyrian reavers: 80 6 Silver Helms: Shields, Musician, 148 28 White Lions of Chrace: FCG, Banner of the World Dragon, 444 6 Sisters of Averlorn: 84 1 Great Eagle: 50 1 Frostheart Phoenix: 240 3x 1 Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower: 70 Total: 2396
Any comments on the army list? Might the results influence the meta? In what way? Are you surprised by the picks? Does one list really stand out and if yes, why?
Keep it civil, folks
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/12 09:20:06
Well, no surprises at all in the Daemon list besides the fact that ETC comps them to only 1 Skill Cannon max.
Other than that, it has the staples that seem to crop up in almost every single competitive Daemons build;
- WS10 GUO who can generally only be hit on 6's in combat? Check!
- Plague-bunkers of not going away? Check!
- MSU Horrors for Gateway/Pinkfire/Treason + additional Channeling and finishing off Core Tax? Check!
- Max Beasts allowed under comp restrictions? Double Check!!
- Max Furies for chaffing/re-directing? Check, Check & Check!
- Skill Cannon? umm... kinda obvious!
Plague Drones do end up taking the place of a pair of ambushing Hound units, but I think it's more or less personal preference as to which gets taken rather than one being clear-cut above the other.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/11 18:59:25
2013/08/11 22:40:14
Subject: Team Germany now the world's best competitive WHFB team!
Sigvatr wrote: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3od94TpMuvccnEyeXk0WS0zX1E/edit
Congratulations to Team Germany for winning the ETC, being just slightly ahead of the also extremely strong Team Poland!
If I read it correctly, Team Italy and Team Denmark are ranking 2nd and third, with Team Poland fourth and not second.
I didn't expect them to win 40k as well, I really thought Italy would do better - but alas, they did a great job and in the end, the victory was extremely close!
Interesting O&G made it. They seem to have taken mass mass heroes. Same with empire.
444pt banner of the world dragon WL army...
Drones are starting to take the place of ambushing Hounds in a competitive setting.
They're tougher being T5/W3, have the benefits of flight (though no marching) and you don't need to wait until Turn 3 for them to charge something.
Plus the flies can be given poisoned attacks, the unit can make use of the Flaming Banner and they come out of the otherwise lackluster Rare section and not the overflowing Specials section. (really, outside of auto-include Skillcannon/s, the Grinder & Burning Chariot are really list dependant on where they fit in)
Drones with the Flaming banner are pretty decent counters to problems like the Hellpit or Hydra.
Overall there's just a lot more flexibility and general 'problem solving' that Drones can do, whereas the Hounds are purely mid to late game backfield wreckers & contesters/claimers.
2013/08/12 17:42:14
Subject: Team Germany now the world's best competitive WHFB team!
Lol s8/7 banishment. Making me debate on running that list sometime. Not too far off my list. I'm surprised at 2x halberd hordes. When I've used them, they were just too unwieldy. I far prefer halberd horde + knights w/ war priest.
Interesting ideas.
2013/08/12 23:18:17
Subject: Team Germany now the world's best competitive WHFB team!
I just want to point out of the armies that can take Wizards, the average # of spell levels is 7.7 total. With only 2 armies having 6 spell levels total at the low end and 4 armies having 8 or more spell levels. And it may be slightly higher because there's a few typos.
But that's a bit disconcerting. While one championship can't be used to draw conclusions, out of 2400 points having 7.7 spell levels ON AVERAGE seems an awful lot. It's almost universally the largest chunk of points as well. Magic was clearly a huge factor in this tournament.
To begin with, magic is the most important thing in WHFB 8th, even under competitive restrictions, so you want to make sure you win the match...and thus make sure your magic gets off.
On top of that, ETC rules change how magic works. You may only throw 5 dice at any spell casting attempt or only 4 with the Lores of Hashut, Death and Shadow. Furthermore, you may only generate up to 2 additional PD per magic phase (includes many magic items). As a consequence, you want to raise your caster level in order to increase the chances of your spell going off.
It's a very good example of how different rules improve the existing ones. Instead of relying on luck, you have to focus on a static, controllable component, in this case wizard levels.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/13 11:05:28
I think the exception to that is empire duke/sigvtar. I'm 90% sure those extra 3 wizards are for banishment stacking around the war altar. They probably only had signature which is really only useful against high regen armies, and even then the war altar should be within 6" of the cannon turn 1 for flaming cannonballs. After that, it's ok but the war altar + cannon is a bit better cause its unexpected by many.
I do like that empire list. I might try it out sometime.
2013/08/13 17:21:23
Subject: Team Germany now the world's best competitive WHFB team!
To be honest: I was blasted away by the Empire list. Empire is one army I never had on my radar and suddenly, there's a good, rather unexplored Empire list floating around. I'll double-check it
At ETC you don't have to have a team of the most kickarse lists, you simply need a couple lists that can viable act as beatsticks, and then fill out your roster with armies that can points-deny like champs and play to their preferred match-ups.
While that VC list may not exactly be the traditional power build, as long as it can secure decent match-ups and avoid the really terribad ones, it works.
At least, that's how ETC has always been explained to me.
2013/08/17 08:44:53
Subject: Team Germany now the world's best competitive WHFB team!
ETC is a completely different ruleset to a regular tournament
It really isn't about winning, it's about losing less than the others basically
And you are extremely limited in some ways about how to play the game
In short, it's not really WHFB anymore, some swear by it and ONLY play with ETC rules, some don't care, some hate it
It's kinda interesting, but it hurts the hobby as a whole (at least where I experienced it, in France and Ireland). There's a group of people that will ONLY play with ETC rules and won't ever consider any other players "worth" it, and there's some kind of backstabbing to be on the ETC team (petty nerdy bickering for a lot of em)
Globally it means that candidates for the ETC team are from a small percentage of the global player pool -only from one or two clubs really- (thus missing some real good players) and a good portion of these candidates never go to other tournaments / events
I hope it's different in other countries (and it probably is to have better results), but if I had to describe ETC shortly in France / Ireland, it would be "haughty inbreds"
(you guessed it, I don't like ETC :p )
2013/08/20 21:30:49
Subject: Re:Team Germany now the world's best competitive WHFB team!
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Indeed.
To say the winner of the ETC is the "Worlds best competitive team" is the height of arrogance.
No, they are the best team in the ETC. Which frankly means nothing to anyone who doesn't use ETC rules.
If you really want a worlds best WFB Team or player, have a truly international uncomped competition.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
By it's very nature, WHFB can't really have a best. It's got a truly obscene amount of random occurrences. The winner of Poker Tournament X isn't the best in the world, they were the best with those cards vs. those opponents who had those other cards on that day/week.
Best is a definition, as always. I think it's pretty much a given that this always includes the unspoken but obvious disclaimer of "in these circumstances".
ETC is the only tournament I know of that pits national teams against one another, so unless there is another one of the same calibre, the winning team is indeed the current world champion (which is just another term for best).
To argue that there could be a better team somewhere in Africa or anyplace which potential members have yet to find out that there is this game, or a couple of excellent arm chair generals in Estonia who due to a lack of interest have never heard of ETC is besides the point I feel. That could be said for boxing or soccer, too.
As for individual players, it's all a matter of focus. You can look at one tournament or a set, and that could well include the ETC. Many others are comped, too, after all.
I am White/Green
2013/08/26 08:56:24
Subject: Team Germany now the world's best competitive WHFB team!
Just to make it clear: I explicitely put "competitive" in the title. I purposefully did not just say "The best team" as "the best" is a very broad term. By including "competitive", I specifically refer to the competitive WHFB that culminates in the ETC as the biggest competitive WHFB event - not to mention that it is, as far as my knowledge goes, the only actual tournament that puts teams against each other - just as Mike already pointed out.
WHFB outside of ETC restrictions is not competitive - far from it. I fully respect people liking the game and having fun, also at tournaments, but if you want to claim that vanilla WHFB is "competitive", I'll just put on a broad smile and move on
ETC is not "competitive", it's a different game with a crapload of arbitrary house rules that hurt some armies a whole lot while others are barely hampered
"competitive" has different definitions from player to player.
to me the most "competitive" WHFB is a no-comp, no-limit tournament where you play the game as it was written, and let the chips fall where they may
You take the most brutal, most filthy army with the most disgusting combos available and let's roll (not that I enjoy this kind of gaming anyway)
ETC is just a different set of rules where you stack up the filth with different limitations and different views on how it's supposed to be played
All a point of view really, everyone is right in their own view The real problem arises when someone thinks his way of playing is the one and only, that everyone else is playing it wrong and when he tries to force his view of the game onto others (sadly it often is the case and leads to intense nerdrage)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/26 11:47:13
2013/08/26 11:47:11
Subject: Team Germany now the world's best competitive WHFB team!
I have played 8th from start in a tournament environment and switched to ETC tournaments slightly more than a year later - and I have never looked back!
Anyone who both played with and without ETC rules is free to have his very own opinion, and I am extremely single-minded on this one: I prefer playing an actual wargame instead of paying lots of money for what is nothing but a glorified version of Yahtzee
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/26 11:48:06
Sigvatr wrote: Just to make it clear: I explicitely put "competitive" in the title. I purposefully did not just say "The best team" as "the best" is a very broad term. By including "competitive", I specifically refer to the competitive WHFB that culminates in the ETC as the biggest competitive WHFB event - not to mention that it is, as far as my knowledge goes, the only actual tournament that puts teams against each other - just as Mike already pointed out.
WHFB outside of ETC restrictions is not competitive - far from it. I fully respect people liking the game and having fun, also at tournaments, but if you want to claim that vanilla WHFB is "competitive", I'll just put on a broad smile and move on
You could scarcely call the rules the ETC uses WHFB at all, they practically write their own little wargame and call it warhammer.
Honestly, this competitive fantasy/40k trend in recent years is the silliest example of mashing the metaphorical square peg into the round hole I've ever seen.
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