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Its no secret that with the advent of 6th and the Prescience, Libbys can do everything Chaplains do, but better and (most importantly, if the C:SM books has the same pricing for libbys as DA) cheaper. There is literally no reason anymore to take a chaplain: re-rolls to hit in assault? Libbys let you do for both assault AND shooting. Power maul? Libbys get a staff with the same stats that can also cause ID. Fearless? ATSKNF is almost always better.

So how can we save them!?

Now the simple answer for me is to remove Prescience from the divination table, or at the very least not make it a primaris power anymore. have no doubt GW will do this for 7th, given how about abused Prescience is. But how can we make Chaplains useful in 6th?

I have a few ideas:

Make them even cheaper than Libbys: Librarians can and will do so much more for the army than a chaplain. Since I feel the price for a DA Libby right now is perfect, I feel Chaplains should be even cheaper, since they are one trick ponies. No more than 50 points.

Boost their stats: Libbys are fragile with only 2 wounds. Making chaplains have more wounds base (like 3) would help them a lot compared to libbys, especially since they are meant to be leading an assault army, and thus is far bigger danger of being killed.

Make their weapons better, make their power maul AP3. It doesn't help much, but its a start.

Give them more things they can do: I really think all Chaplains should be like BA ones leading DC and allow the squad to re-roll to hit AND to wound.

I think they are fine where they are.

First, not every marine force can get divination librarians.
Second, librarians, while more generically useful, require a bit of luck. Chaplains just work. No hoping for the right powers, no perils, no deny the witch. Just pure hate-driven killing.

They are more survivable then librarians. Built in 4++ goes a long way.

The problem is that they are a CC character in a shooting oriented edition. Fixing that is going to require more then a few buffs.

I think if hatred became a 6" bubble it would be a lot more useful. Having his hateful words spread all around sounds good to me!

All the Chaplain needs is a decent transport option to get his squad into the fight in one piece. Like an assault rhino or slightly cheaper LRs.

In my opinion make them an elite choice with squads of three like the BA saguinary priests. I would say that would be awesome because I love fielding them for 2 reasons they make a squad better and they are pretty damn hard to kill. Oh I love the models too. The skull helmets are amazing.

 Nevelon wrote:
I think they are fine where they are.

First, not every marine force can get divination librarians.
Second, librarians, while more generically useful, require a bit of luck. Chaplains just work. No hoping for the right powers, no perils, no deny the witch. Just pure hate-driven killing.

They are more survivable then librarians. Built in 4++ goes a long way.

The problem is that they are a CC character in a shooting oriented edition. Fixing that is going to require more then a few buffs.

What are you talking about?

Prescience of a primaris power, so you can always get it when you want. And its a blessing, so no deny the witch.

Yes Chaplains have a 4++, but then only have 2 wounds and WS 5 like a libby, and you should NEVER be getting him in a situation where he needs to rely on the 4++ to survive...

You do realize that chaplains are *supposed* to be getting into close combat? and that there are 3W chaplains in Dark Angels?

Commander OB wrote:
In my opinion make them an elite choice with squads of three like the BA saguinary priests. I would say that would be awesome because I love fielding them for 2 reasons they make a squad better and they are pretty damn hard to kill. Oh I love the models too. The skull helmets are amazing.

I agree that the BA codex is a step in the right direction by making their Chaplains Elites (though this was probably so that if you wanted to make an all DC army you could put one in each squad). Sucks that no other SM codex since has done the same...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
You do realize that chaplains are *supposed* to be getting into close combat? and that there are 3W chaplains in Dark Angels?

I'm speaking about all Chaplains in general for all SM armies. To the best of my knowledge right now only DA and BA have 3W "super Chaplains."

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

What are you talking about?

Prescience of a primaris power, so you can always get it when you want. And its a blessing, so no deny the witch.

Yes Chaplains have a 4++, but then only have 2 wounds and WS 5 like a libby, and you should NEVER be getting him in a situation where he needs to rely on the 4++ to survive...

You still have to roll to use the power. It might have been one too many games where my librarian was facing off against Eldar, where if he wanted to do anything, he stood an equal chance of having his brains leak out his ears as getting the power off. I know they don't do that anymore, but it left a bad taste in my mouth. Chaplains just work. You put them in front of a CC squad, and set them loose.

While you can kit a librarian up as a CC monster, they are not as reliable at it as a chaplain. Librarians have the potential to be very powerful, but there are some risks involved. Chaplains are more focused, but safer. And tougher then a Lib out of the box.

If you wanted to boost them, I like the aura idea. Boosting the crozius might be another option, but I think AP3 with what it has already would be a bit much. There are some situation USRs that fit the bill, might be worth tacking an extra one on.

(When discussing this I am coming from view of a DA player, as this is what I know best.)
I for one definitely agree with the OP here, Chaplains need some kind of change. There is no reasonable logic why a chaplain with exactly the same stat line as a librarian should have a 25 pts cost increase over him. Yes He gets a 4++ save and hatred. But remember, hatred has downsides too, prescience does the same thing but lasts into the enemies turn too, as well as effecting shooting attacks. Librarian also gets a choice of better power weapons as well as a psychic hood for some slight frosting on the cake. All in all Chaplains struggle to currently fit into a competitive SM list, the shooting nature of 6th doesnt help this for sure, and I for one think it is a shame, as their models help bring character to SM lists as well as looking pretty nice in the process.

Changes: This is the tough part, for me it comes down to 3 things: Their weapons, their cost and their special rules.

1) If one think truly irks me about the current chaplains, it is the crozius. What a boring waste of space this weapon is. Same stats as a power maul with nothing at all to add fluff or actual game play advantage. This needs a change, either some special rules or stat changes to set it apart from a normal power weapon.

2) Cost: What were they thinking when planning out codex DA? Either lower the price to a more acceptable level (I would suggest around the same as a DA libarian would be closer to the mark) or give them some buffs to represent their price tag.

3) Ok, special rules. This bit is a tough one. One of the big short comings of chaplains in 6th is the same problem which many units in different codices have faced, that is, simplification of rules through grouping USRs together. I don't believe simply giving a Chaplain zealot does them any justice. He should have some special rules specifically for him (Perhaps these can change between the different marines dex's?). One issue these rules should address is the chaplain's role in 6th edition. The chaplain is often stuck in a CC unit and rushed across the board, and whilst I don't want to take this away from him, I would like him to have a greater role outside of cc if the player desires to. I would suggest something along the lines of a leadership bubble (Stick it on the corzius, make it a USR and call it symbol of office or something?), or perhaps granting nearby units special rules, something like counter-attack for example.

Through giving the chaplain some kind buff that will make him more effective outside of CC, I would hope to make him a more viable choice alongside librarians.

Perhaps giving the Chaplain a choice of rules might be the way to boost their versatility. For example, pick at the beginning of the turn: Hatred, Counter-Attack, Crusader, Rampage.

All nice CC buffs, all slightly different, and all useful, rather than just 'hit those guys over there'. Crusader helps get to CC with the 2d6-pick-highest running, counter-attack helps against horde charges (although someone would have to do the maths on +1A or re-roll all A is better), Rampage makes them good for going solo if needed.

 Paradigm wrote:
Perhaps giving the Chaplain a choice of rules might be the way to boost their versatility. For example, pick at the beginning of the turn: Hatred, Counter-Attack, Crusader, Rampage.

All nice CC buffs, all slightly different, and all useful, rather than just 'hit those guys over there'. Crusader helps get to CC with the 2d6-pick-highest running, counter-attack helps against horde charges (although someone would have to do the maths on +1A or re-roll all A is better), Rampage makes them good for going solo if needed.

They are still CC buffs in a shooty army in a shooty edition. I don't think having 1 of these buffs, or even all of them, would significantly raise their use in 6th ed. Of course it would still be nice for those dedicated assault units.

To be honest, while this is apparently a 'shooty edition', the chaplain will always have the role of boosting CC prowess, the issue is that anyone with a Divination libby (which is anyone with allies) can do it better, so I suggested something to make him better at that.

On the whole, you can't really change what a chaplain is meant to do, only make him better at it than the alternatives. You only really take a chaplain with a dedicated assault unit anyway, either termies, ASM or vanguards (or possibly a command squad), so the best bet is to make him better at boosting their potential. With a price drop to 90 points, and the rules I suggested above, I would happily take one as my second HQ (libby or captain first, generally). Any buff to stats is also cool, but it is the rules you take a chaplain for.

Black Templars Chaplains are going to remain the ideal Chaplains until Saturday, when we'll lose them. 3 Wounds, other buffs than just rerolls and access to the Armoury (Thunder Hammers, Adamantine Mantles etc.), 3 attacks base (4 with TDA). Chaplains ought to be great CC beatsticks while buffing their squad; 2-wound Chaplains with I4, AP4 weapons and 2 attacks base are an affront to the Emperor.

 Paradigm wrote:
To be honest, while this is apparently a 'shooty edition', the chaplain will always have the role of boosting CC prowess

Why?
There is no reason why options couldn't be added to expand the role of chaplains. After all a chaplain is simply a priest who serves alongside the armed forces, nothing states he has to be a close combat psychopath.
I'd like to see (along with the additions I stated previously) cheaper base chaplains with the option to purchase different special rules and wargear. Allowing SM players to kit out a chaplain to entirely suit their list should make them more viable.

Of course the option to build them as a CC monster would still be there, if you wanted to take it.

Chaplains fill the role of CC buffs as they lose out in terms of personal CC power to captain/chapter masters, and you have libbys for buffing units outside of CC. The only other thing that chaplains could do is provide a LD buff (as currently) over a wider range, but I don't see what else they could offer that isn't covered by another slot.

Anything else, like the granting USRs to nearby units, is probably better to represent the Captain's role as a leader than a chaplains' as a priest. Chaplains are not military commanders, they are zealous, angry priests whose oratory inspires those around them with the same anger and hatred.

The rule (or kind of rule) they have at the moment is actually fitting of the fluff, it's just not good enough in comparison to the Libby. Therefore, what they really need is an impovment to the rules they already have, or simply a points-drop. Keeping them as they are but sticking a 60-70 point price tag on them would be the easiest way to make them more useful, and actually something worth taking over the libby, or a buff to Captain-level stats and a Ld bubble for say, 90 points. I suppose you could add in some form of psychic defence as well, but it would have to be good enough to compete with the psychic hood.

The ability to kit out your HQ exactly as wanted is already present. If you want a purely CC monster or force-org manipulation, take a captain/chapter master and add upgrades, if you want wide buffs and potential defbuffs, take a libby, and if you want to boost a single unit, take a chaplain. It's only the points that make a chaplain redundant compared to the others.

 Paradigm wrote:


The ability to kit out your HQ exactly as wanted is already present. If you want a purely CC monster or force-org manipulation, take a captain/chapter master and add upgrades, if you want wide buffs and potential defbuffs, take a libby, and if you want to boost a single unit, take a chaplain. It's only the points that make a chaplain redundant compared to the others.

This logic just supports the fact that chaplains are out of place in the current edition. HQ's are limited not just by their points cost, but also by the 2 slots available for a regular 40k army. If the current chaplain was even less points that you suggested, lets say 50, then even at this low cost they will most likely be overlooked for the more versatile nature of librarians.

But to say all the bases are covered by other space marines hq choices is simply not correct. Captains provide little for an army besides a slot for bikers as troops, and librarians are totally random in their powers outside of their primis choices, even then they have the chance to fail their ld roll.

Chaplains could offer a more reliable, though of course either less potent or more expensive choice, compared to the librarian. I still stand by the fact that the corzius is absolute rubbish and needs a buff for both fluff and balance sake, and also that chaplains deserve a role outside that of cc.

I agree the crozuis needs something to make it better than a normal power maul (even AP3 would probably do it), and could give some kind of Ld buff.

I agree that captains are only there for CC and bike troops, but the point I'm making is that if any HQ should be getting the choice of issuing USRs, then it should be captains, they are the leaders and it would boost their effectiveness.

Yes, chaplains should be a more reliable counterpart for libbys, and better in CC, but how you can do this without straying too far from their traditional roles is not something I can really see an answer to. At 60 points for a guaranteed Hatred and Fearless would be fine for an ASM/Termie squad, and a great force-multipliers. The solution to the limited HQ slots is solved rather well by BA, have them as Elites (maybe even a 1-3 choice) and then have an Interrogator-chaplain/reclusiarch as a Chaplain with W/A 3 and perhaps a better buff, or wider range. Something like this:

Elites: Chaplain:
1-3 chaplains @ 60 points per model, IC. Access to armoury but not relics.
Hatred and Fearless conferred to squad.
Crozius, AP3 +2S, Concussive.

HQ: Reclusiarch:
W3 A3, I5 WS/BS5 90 points, gives 6" Hatred/Fearless bubble. Access to armoury and relics.

Yes, chaplains should be a more reliable counterpart for libbys, and better in CC, but how you can do this without straying too far from their traditional roles is not something I can really see an answer to.

I think this is the key difference between our views. You wish to keep the traditional role of chaplains and everything that comes with it, whereas I would not mind seeing a change to the status quo as long as I get to field chaplains again in competitive army.