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Hey all, I've been working on a traitor guard list to ally to my Daemons after acquiring a mountain of cultists. I wanted to do an ork-like horde that charged forward while shooting, then got stuck in. Few if any transports, just a tidal wave of filthy devil-worshipers charging with bayonets fixed, while my Great Unclean One and Soul Grinders did the heavy lifting. Before I really got down to painting cultists forever, I wanted some opinions on how well it would work.

Was planning on Straken for furious charge and counter-attack in a command squad with all the fixings. Banner, medic, bodyguards, maybe some flamers or meltas. He'd sit at the center of a full platoon with 5 infantry squads and a max conscript blob. Was going to split the platoon into a 30 and 20 man blob, each with a priest with eviscerator. Either I'd stick a commissar in both squads or take Chenkov, not sure which. Every sergeant would have either an axe or a mace, and some combination of flamers and meltas in the squads. The conscript squad would have a priest as well.

Basic strategy would be to just charge forward with the platoon and company command squads at the center of the three blobs of guardsmen. Conscripts in front to eat bullets, 30 and 20 man squads behind them. Fire what they can then charge and spend the rest of the game in melee.

This is being taken as an allied contingent, so just 1 hq, 2 troops, etc. I wasn't sure what to take as extras. A vet squad for heavier weapons, maybe throw in Marbo and a special weapons squad in with demo packs to go blow themselves up for Chaos? Thoughts?

Vendettas are always good.

I think Axes are a better choice than Maces for your power weapons.

As a daemons player I encourage all Imperial Guard players to abandon the gunlines and assault.

Thanks you for your time.

Assault Guard so to speak are definitely viable, just don't zerg them straight into people, as 150 Lasgun shots to the face are pretty damn effective as well. It also gets you access to a Vendetta and a Manticore, which are great support units.

The key for Guard blobs is to ensure that they are Fearless/Stubborn or have ATSKNF, its what makes the unit viable. Your core unit is 50 guys, with Power Axe + Melta Bombs on every Sarge (occasionally I see people run one of them with no upgrades to absorb the first challenge/Commisar hit), additional weapons are optional (mostly as Lasguns are the most points effiecient way to force wounds on normal infantry) - Flamers are nice for Overwatch (you tend to get assaulted quite a bit, you aren't fast) but heavy weapons are definitely optional. Don't split them into 20 and 30 man units, your strength is being one big blob that is impossible to shift - I would never go below 40 for a blob squad. Being a single unit makes it easier to get them Fearless etc, and easier to issue orders to.

Tbh I wouldn't bother with Straken, he is really expensive and very easy to just torrent off the board if he is actually in the position to buff your blobs. A Priest in the squad can be worth considering though I guess. Don't take Conscripts, just take more guys. Remember that each 50 man blob + Command + Specials/Heavies (if you take them) is only a single troops choice, so if you really wanted to you could take 2 x 50 man blobs as an ally (which would usually be the bulk of your army).

As for other stuff, as mentioned a Vendetta (best flier in the game) and a Manticore (very tasty S10 pie plates) are very solid support units. Its usually worth finding 50 odd points to throw a special weapon squad in the Vendetta (better than putting a Command type unit in it cause that loses you their orders) so you can potentially drop them on objectives late.

It's not very difficult nowadays for your opponent to kill guardsmen in such a way where it's two steps forward, and then one or two steps back. Getting horde units into close combat is all but impossible in a world filled with bolter banner DA, and MSMM shuriken weapons, and venom spam, and ignores-cover tau, and ignores-cover CSM armies. Really, every army has more than one way to wash away your models before they even think about close combat if you can't manage at least a 3+ save.

Guard can still do close combat, in a limited way and relegated to a counter-charge role. It's been over a year since foot guard armies could run across the table with any serious degree of success. Perhaps when the new guard codex comes out, they'll do something to make it so that you don't lose more inches of guardsmen than you advanced in the previous turn, but that seems unlikely. Choppy foot guard is going to have to wait for a new rules edition to fix the barbarity done to assault horde armies. If it even does. The longer things go, and the more new codices come out, the more I'm thinking that power blobs and green tides were really an anomaly of 5th edition, and we're probably not going to see them again.

Actually I could kind of see this working with a FMC list. The guardsmen absorb the small arms fire that normally grounds the FMC and the FMC actually do all the work. If they don't deal with the guardsmen then they swamp the opponent's deployment zone. Though honestly IG add only HS and flyers to a daemon army. You have better assault horde units in the daemons dex.

As for in general assault guardsmen are dead as dead gets. Killing 30-50 IG per turn is not hard for most lists and 30-50 guardsmen is usually 3-6 inches of your movement from each unit or the entire unit. It take 3-4 turns to close with most opponents or they can assault better than you...this means 200 guardmen will either die before ever assaulting or fight something which will kill you.

For reference;
Typical Tau gunline overwatch: >20 dead guardsmen if you charge the kroot screen...good luck getting that charge range. (meaningless as they probably will never even get with 12" of the tau gunline)

Typical hounds of khorne charging you: 22 guardsmen dead turn 1...after a few turns they kill you completely with half their unit alive. That is with a little over half the IG unit's points in dogs. It is bad.

As for if it is fun. Yes it is very fun. The conscripts work okay as a screen but you need a commissar to keep them from running while he sticks around in the guardsmen. Krieg assault list from IA 12 is much better at this type of play style. They also have corrupt army lists which are very cool.

Have mentioned this before but taking Azrael with DA allies helps alot with this style of army, put him with x50 Guardsmen and give them all a 4+ ward save and Fearless, it works very well

And do not forget about Creed! He will be able to make your blob+Azzy Scouts and let them outflank .

Thanks for the advice. I'm kinda torn on not using Straken, having already mashed together an Evil Straken model for him out of bits. Running two platoons would certainly be a way to throw more models into the enemy guns as well. The large variety of toys is probably making me throw too many points into units and not enough expendable bodies.

Are conscripts really that bad though? Aside from the awful leadership, which can always be raised with an IC, their stats aren't that much worse than a regular guardsman. BS2 on a frontline screen that's just moving into assault doesn't seem that terrible, and WS2 hits on 4's against most stuff just like WS3. The 5 power weapons are certainly a loss, I'll admit.

I'll have to check out IA12 though, and see what it does. Other than make me want to spend too much money on models.

Conscripts are terrible for actually accomplishing anything other than dying. They die incredibily well though if you give them SiNW as they can come back like cockroaches from the boardside.

IA12 krieg assault list has a rule for games above 1500 pts called the last hope that makes all of your infantry platoons respawn at your board edge if they get completely killed. They also don't run due to casualties. However I forgot when I posted this that they have a limited allies matrix (no chaos allies for them, sorry).

On a related note the other army lists are overall weaker (no vendettas) but they give some interesting stuff like plague ogryn (Renegades and Heretics: Servants of Decay) and infantry that act as mobile cover for SM models literally throwing themselves in front of bullets (IA10 Tyrant's Legion).

I have run assault guard with some success in casual games, but on the whole, Platoon infantry will die in droves before they can even get in rapid fire range, and with enough fire, the I've even had blobs killed so far back the last turn of movement is removed.

One idea I hav thought of (although hve not yet tested) is the idea of non-blob blobs. It sounds mad, but hear me out: by running 30+ guys near each other, but not in combined squads but exactly as if they were, you get the force concentration of blobs, but the enemy can only kill 10 guardsmen at a time, with overwatch or shooting generally. The disadvantage of this, as far as I can see, is you have less ablative wounds for each PW, and orders lose their punch (KP are also an issue, but as you choose to blob or not at deployment, this can be mitigated somewhat.)

The consript screen seems a waste of points, as they die in masses, and SINTW is too expensive for my tastes. On most boards, they will only be able to screen a small section of the army due to terrain. They also lack the flexibility of PIS, having to be run as one massive squad regardless of mission or opponent.

True and they also have the run factor. Where if the conscripts only run 1" and the squad behind them gets 6" you either loose that movement or shoot past your screening unit. What conscripts are great for is a turn 1-2 cover save and then popping up in you own deployment zone to ensure an objective is claimed.

BTW SiNW conscipts are like putting your name on one objective on your board edge, it is yours and you will own it.

 ansacs wrote:


BTW SiNW conscipts are like putting your name on one objective on your board edge, it is yours and you will own it.

This is true, but I don't really like the idea of a backfiled objective placement with an assault/agreesive army, as it means something has to stay behind and babysit. The only thing guard have that can do this is HWTs, which suffer from Ld problems. I agree conscripts can fuflil this function with SITNW, but the cost of chenkov+conscripts+SITNW could get you another kitted out platoon, a mobile Melta/plasma vet squad, an upgraded Leman Russ or even a manticore with points to spare, and I think that any of those probably add more the the guard. I prefer placing the objectives in the mid field, using MMM to reach them with 100+ guardsmen, and force the enemy to come to me, where I can die 10 men at a time and Burn/FRFSRF whatever killed them the next turn. With the amount of flamers mass PIS can bring, they are pretty handy with en-masse overwatch as well.

I think the new style of assault guard has to become more abstract. Intead of focusing on power weapons and massive assaults, they need to be more about getting in the enemy's face and unloading hundreds of las-rounds from upwards of the midfield. Once the enemy have been weakend by artillery/russes/masses of firepower, then the infantry hordes can go in for the kill if needed. The key is to play agressively, but remember guard are a shooty army in a shooty edition. One thing we can and always will be able to do is put out tonnes of shots, that should be the key focus of 6th ed assault guard.

@Paradigm
You funny neckbeard that isn't assault guard if it shoots and never assaults...that is close support guard. Honestly I like playing this style as well but they are much better with IA12 DKoK assault list armies (forlorn hope or grenadiers). They can also work reasonably well with SoB or DA allies. You can place the ADL on the mid field point and move the IG guys up behind that for the first 1-2 turns. This helps alot with the SoB they are Fnp, 2+++ troops for 1-2 turns which usually buys them enough movement to get well into the mid field.

Regular IG will fall apart to the football field deployment and gunlines though as their lasguns are 24" range and their best weapons want to be within 12" or less. The SiNW conscripts can still be hugely useful in all these armies as if you depend on claiming a midfield objective every game with IG you will find you loose to anyone who can kill ~30 GEQ a turn. This is a huge number of lists at the moment even with cover. If you don't have plentiful good cover this strategy is doomed.

Conscipts are still good for giving another round of 5+++ cover and when you get into it you can sacrifice them and bring them back to claim the objective. You can also afford to bunch them up and let blast templates devour them wholesale as any firepower the opponent uses on them is beneficial to you. This means they have better force concentration than regular guardsmen if you don't mind lasgun fire being the type of damage you are dealing. They can also be a very useful character bunker as you just have to remember to split the character off one turn prior to pulling the conscripts. Also make sure you space them out in the vicinity of the IC as barrage weapons will kill him otherwise.

As I said, it's assault in a more abstract sense, in that is focuses on agression and close range damage, and still plays similarly. I just find that it is more effective these days to focus on shooting with a shooting army, in an edition that favours shooting. Guard can put out a load of firepower, and it seems pointless not to capitalise on this.

You hit at the same strength in shooting or melee, but the shooting is more reliable, as it does not suffer from random charge difference, lose effectiveness from overwatch, anc can take advantage of orders to maximise damage. You can also spend the points you would allocate to power weapons on Special weapon upgrades, which, in all likelyhood, will get to fire more than once per game, as opposed to a power weapon that can hit in a round of CC, then likely either sweep or be swept depending on the opponent. In the former case, you will be shot to peices next turn, likely in the open with no cover, and in the latter case, you will just be plain dead.

Conscripts have their use, and I can accept that. They do make good distractions and fire magnets, but I find most opponents, once they find they can come back or are just WS/BS2 guardsmen, ignore them and focus on killing the PIS anyway, leaving me with a bunch of respawning conscripts when I would rather have just spent the points on regular guardsmen or more artillery. I think it is really a matter of opinion.

I agree the IA12 list seems great for this kind of army, but have not yet tried it. I almost think the extra points per squad over C:IG is actually a detriment, as every 5 PIS could get you 7 for the main codex, and this does add up when playing a larger list.