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The problem is the LRBT and las/plas vanquisher are roughly similarly effective at killing marines. One large blast will hit maybe 3-5 guys with normal spacing, or perhaps even less with poor scatter. On the other hand, the Vanquisher can fire all weapons, and will hit maybe 2 per template, and on average one LC or main gun hit, for around 3-5 hits. Both wound on 2s, making them roughly equal, and the vanquisher is almost infinitely better against TEQ, MCs and anti-tank. It is simply far more versatile. The LRBT can do one thing well, but is outclassed by more specialised variants at anything but shooting at MEQ in the open.

Remember though that a plas costs 30% more than a standard russ, however I definitely see your point for the TEQ. That being said, if you want a TEQ/MC killer, why not an executioner? You get essentially 3 plasma cannons that don't get hot for 5 points cheaper.

eclipseoto wrote:

The problem is the LRBT and las/plas vanquisher are roughly similarly effective at killing marines. One large blast will hit maybe 3-5 guys with normal spacing, or perhaps even less with poor scatter. On the other hand, the Vanquisher can fire all weapons, and will hit maybe 2 per template, and on average one LC or main gun hit, for around 3-5 hits. Both wound on 2s, making them roughly equal, and the vanquisher is almost infinitely better against TEQ, MCs and anti-tank. It is simply far more versatile. The LRBT can do one thing well, but is outclassed by more specialised variants at anything but shooting at MEQ in the open.

Remember though that a plas costs 30% more than a standard russ, however I definitely see your point for the TEQ. That being said, if you want a TEQ/MC killer, why not an executioner? You get essentially 3 plasma cannons that don't get hot for 5 points cheaper.

To be honest, I find the versatility worth the price over the LRBT and the executioner, as the former can't do anti-TEQ and the latter struggles with AT. I find the vanquisher to be more versatile should it be needed, it can do a bit of everything. I tend to only run one russ in most lists, so I like having the option to hit different targets. I tend to rank the roles of the Vanquisher like this:

AT>MC>TEQ>MEQ>everything else.

A tank that is excellent at one thing and good at most others is more useful than a dedicated role when bringing only one. If I were bringing more than one, then I would probably default to a Vanquisher, an exterminator and an executioner, but I usually have neither the points nor the models for this.

I tend to only run one russ in most lists

That would make sense for the need for the versatility. In that case I totally agree. I tend to see russes in threes (not necessarily the same squadron), in which case it's much easier to specialize and capitalize on that specialization.

If I were to construct a list and use 3 russes along with standard affair of guards men and CCS I feel like I would be lacking points for much else. For instance would I still want a vendetta? A model many people seem so keen on using? Essentially I guess I am asking, do I want blobs, russes, and vendettas in my list at all times or do I only get to pick russes or vendettas? If I can only pick one which is more useful (read: which expensive model do I buy?)

In addition I want to thank everyone for the wonderful discussion this is giving me great perspective on guard and I really want to keep it up! Thank you!

 Tailor wrote:
If I were to construct a list and use 3 russes along with standard affair of guards men and CCS I feel like I would be lacking points for much else. For instance would I still want a vendetta? A model many people seem so keen on using? Essentially I guess I am asking, do I want blobs, russes, and vendettas in my list at all times or do I only get to pick russes or vendettas? If I can only pick one which is more useful (read: which expensive model do I buy?)

In addition I want to thank everyone for the wonderful discussion this is giving me great perspective on guard and I really want to keep it up! Thank you!

I would say it really depends on what you are up against, if the meta is flyer heavy you will want a vendetta, if not, Russes are a better bet in my opinion. Able to apply force from T1, and far more varied in what then can do. Vendettas do AT very well, and are good transports, but are less good at anti-infantry or anti-MEQ.

I would say bring one Russ per 750 odd points, with the rest on infantry, and 3 at 2000 will still leave you able to get a ton of troops. One of the beauties of IG is that you can bring the best part of 100 guys for as little as 500 points, if you feel so inclined, so in the long run, Vendettas and russes are not out of the question as you will find yourself with plenty of spare points. In the short terms, I would recommend a Russ or two, as they are more reliable and easy to use, Vendettas take a lot of practice to get right.

Those who say Vendettas are the best unit in the codex are probably not wrong, but unless you plan on playing purely competatively, they are not essenetial by any stretch of the imagination. .

It really depends on the meta. Probably for a general army I would consider Russes and their variants more useful in more situations, but I'd be remiss if I didn't praise the usefulness of the vendetta.

My armies usually consist of the core troops, usually two platoons for me and a veteran squad, then I add russes until I get 2 or 3, then I add artillery until I get 2 or 3. That's because there are a lot more MEQ armies in my meta than flyers though.

Really that core of cheap units with mixed heavy weapons is a big strength of the Guard I think.

Could someone run through the basic principles of a Vendetta to me, I know they must come from reserve and I know it has 3 Lascannons, but why is everyone so crazy for them? What makes them so desirable? I can get 3 Lascannons on troops for cheaper. I just can visualize their usefulness. :\

 Lothar wrote:
Do not listen do that "Vendetta list guy", he probably never played a game with flyers...

To the OP. 1000 points without chimeras and allies:

Lord Commissar, power fist (in a blob)

PCS, 4x flamer (to kill enemy infantry on objective)
3x Infantry squad, 3x power axe (with lord commissar)

PCS, AC (on the objective, ordering infantry squads, shooting light vehicles)
3x Infantry squad, 4x power weapon, commissar
2x infantry, 2x AC (objective holders)

1x Vendetta (PCS on board)
1x Leman Demolisher

You have 1 tank, 1 airplane, 2 assault units, 1 defense unit, 1 flamer droppers. It is nothing very strong, but playable.

I really like is list, especially commissar blob and power fist. The one thing is since I usually play Necrons, a battle tank won't get glanced to scrap as soon as it's in range to shoot like demolishers.
...I say this and I send hellhounds on suicide missions rushing them at scarabs

 Tailor wrote:
Could someone run through the basic principles of a Vendetta to me, I know they must come from reserve and I know it has 3 Lascannons, but why is everyone so crazy for them? What makes them so desirable? I can get 3 Lascannons on troops for cheaper. I just can visualize their usefulness. :\

I'm sure I'm missing something, but basically the advantage as I see them is that they're 3 twin-linked lascannons, they're only 130 points, 3 only take up one force organization spot and they're flyers so normal units (wihtout skyfire) hit on 6's. You can also shove troops in them to drop right onto objectives/behind armor/next to MC's etc...

I believe those are the big advantages, you just get a lot for a relatively low price point.

KommissarKiln wrote:

I really like is list, especially commissar blob and power fist. The one thing is since I usually play Necrons, a battle tank won't get glanced to scrap as soon as it's in range to shoot like demolishers.
...I say this and I send hellhounds on suicide missions rushing them at scarabs

Hey man, I don't blame you. Those little metal spiders are scary! They do horrible things to expensive tanks...

Why is everyone saying that the Regimental Banner does the same thing as the Vox? If I am reading this correctly the Vox allows you to reroll Ld tests for orders and the Banner allows you to reroll Morale and Pinning tests while also giving +1 in combat? Is that correct?

If so, how useful are Vox?

*Edit Not in this thread but another, the other IG tactics one

 Tailor wrote:
Could someone run through the basic principles of a Vendetta to me, I know they must come from reserve and I know it has 3 Lascannons, but why is everyone so crazy for them? What makes them so desirable? I can get 3 Lascannons on troops for cheaper. I just can visualize their usefulness. :\

The Vendetta is powerful because it does a lot for very few points. It's a good anti-tank unit (TL lascannons with flyer mobility to hit side armor), the best AA unit in the game, extremely durable because of hitting on 6s against AV 12, and delivers a scoring unit when you need it. And because it was designed as a skimmer in 5th edition it's incredibly cheap for what it does. A "fair" 6th edition Vendetta would cost 150-200 points, but you get it for a mere 130. Really the only reason not to take Vendettas is if you're deliberately making your list weaker so you don't crush a newbie too badly.

Of course the person giving advice about using 12 Vendettas is still utterly wrong. Vendettas are an auto-include in every IG list, but you still have to take other units to handle other jobs.

 Tailor wrote:
Why is everyone saying that the Regimental Banner does the same thing as the Vox? If I am reading this correctly the Vox allows you to reroll Ld tests for orders and the Banner allows you to reroll Morale and Pinning tests while also giving +1 in combat? Is that correct?

You are correct. The regimental standard does absolutely nothing to help with orders. The people suggesting it for that reason are just wrong.

Yeah, I got confused over the banner, and you are quite right. Sorry about that.

I still don't really see the usefulness of vox, though, as the points are probably better spent on more weapon upgrades, as to be honest, you will only occasionally fail an order, and it is not normally detrimental to a plan.

 Paradigm wrote:

I still don't really see the usefulness of vox, though, as the points are probably better spent on more weapon upgrades, as to be honest, you will only occasionally fail an order, and it is not normally detrimental to a plan.

Vox-casters are essential if you expect to issue orders that should be successful at all costs. For example, I see incoming FMC and I need to bring it down ASAP (or it will rip my platoon apart). OK, I have veterans with 3 plasmaguns and attached Primaris Psiker just for this case. I move them into the Rapid Fire range and issue a "Bring It Down!" order to make their shots twin-linked. Then I roll dice and uups! - order fails! In this case I would be more than eager to pay a pity 5 pts to be able to reroll .

Fair enough, I can see the usefulness of vox in certain situations, but on the whole I find them less useful than other options. That said, I often bring attached Commissars or marine ICs, so that could explain the difference of opinion.

 Paradigm wrote:
Fair enough, I can see the usefulness of vox in certain situations, but on the whole I find them less useful than other options. That said, I often bring attached Commissars or marine ICs, so that could explain the difference of opinion.

Does IG units benefit from attached ICs leadership when rolling for orders? GWs FAQ says the opposite:
"Q: Can an Imperial Guard unit use the Leadership of an allied Independent Character that has joined their squad for the purposes of receiving an order? (p29)
A: No."

And I just don't see what else can I buy for just 5 pts that will be as useful as vox. Melta-bombs are too situational and everything other is more expensive.

Ah, ok, had not seen that FAQ, I see your point there. As for the use of 5 points, a couple of them dropped can upgrade an AC to a LC, or a grenade launcher to a melta ect.

I'm not sure if I think the Vox is worth it or not, I could definitely see how it could be useful and the added consistency is always good; however how much it would actually affect the game, I don't know.

If I could, I've been trying to understand the Psyker Squad and the Primaris Pskyer, but I just don't get it, I've looked in the rule book and read the FAQ so apparently they're all level 1? If someone would quickly explain how they work as far as powers and how they use them I would appreciate it!

PBS can only use the two abilities in the IG Codex. The Primaris Psyker can opt to roll for two powers on any of Pyromancy, Biomancy, Telekinesis, and/or Telepathy instead of using its book powers. They're both Mastery Level 1.

 Tailor wrote:
I'm not sure if I think the Vox is worth it or not, I could definitely see how it could be useful and the added consistency is always good; however how much it would actually affect the game, I don't know.

I never leave home without the vox squads. I use a lot of commands to get every last drop out of my little guardsmen, and frankly I'd rather spend 5 points to increase my chances of getting 20 shots rather than 10 for FRFSRF from 58% to 82%. To me, the voxes are important because I use "bring it down" quite a bit because of my interspersed heavy weapons, having twin linked heavies is just fantastic.

I can see your angle, however, I wonder how many points you invest into this as kitting out multiple squads gets costly quick!

In addition does anyone use the PBS or am I better of with a Primaris?

Also thank you @Talore! I don't know why I couldn't understand that :\ lol

 Tailor wrote:

In addition does anyone use the PBS or am I better of with a Primaris?

I use them both -- their powers are very useful.

Seemingly the 5th IG newb to contribute to this thread. The debates on vox and vendettas and CCS are really useful, I'll be tracking this for sure!

I'm a big fan of psykers so a PBS and primaris psyker as one psychic mini death machine could be an ace especially if you manage to generate Gate to Infinity *mwahahaha*

A couple of questions... In general play are combined squads better than individual? And which orders are best/duds?

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
Seemingly the 5th IG newb to contribute to this thread. The debates on vox and vendettas and CCS are really useful, I'll be tracking this for sure!

I'm a big fan of psykers so a PBS and primaris psyker as one psychic mini death machine could be an ace especially if you manage to generate Gate to Infinity *mwahahaha*

A couple of questions... In general play are combined squads better than individual? And which orders are best/duds?

regarding orders, the best are, in no particular order, FRFSRF, as the sheer shots it can put out is terrifying, GBITF, as you need as many guys on the field as possible, and it can be used to get up from GTG behind an ADL, shooting with no penalty, and FOMT, for multiplying the effectiveness of your mass of heavy weapons. The others are also good, but a bit more situational. MMM is useful early on but less so later on, unless you need to reach an objective, and FOMT can be useful on infantry in cover. Incoming is ok if you expect to get really hit hard next turn, as it gives you a cover save even in the open. None of them are really useless, but the first ones I listed are probably the most versatile and useful.

As for the eternal question, 'to blob or not to blob', there are arguemts for both sides. Blobbing makes orders more ffective and concentrates force better, as well as lessening KP, while seperate squads allow you to engage more targets and spread out further. They also make the army easier to move and manouvre. It really is a matter of personal preference, so try both and see, and the real beauty of it is that you don't decide until you deploy, so you can switch around between games to keep your opponents on their toes.

 Paradigm wrote:

regarding orders, the best are, in no particular order, FRFSRF, as the sheer shots it can put out is terrifying, GBITF, as you need as many guys on the field as possible, and it can be used to get up from GTG behind an ADL, shooting with no penalty, and FOMT, for multiplying the effectiveness of your mass of heavy weapons.

I actually end up using FRFSRF and Bring it Down almost exclusively. Do note that I run against a good amount of tanks and MC's so there's a LOT of opportunity for it, but I definitely use FRFSRF the most.

 Tailor wrote:
Don't PCS lack the ability to use Bring it down? I thought that was a really great order and pivotal to play? I can see the effectiveness of using a Lord Commisar and definitely think those units will have more bite in CC with the power weapons but at the end of the day, I'm still guard, my sergeants only have 1 wound, no save to speak of, and low I, is it worth trying to kit them for CC?

I'm not trying to flame your list at all so please don't take it that way, I appreciate all input! This has been great for me, as well as the other thread, I'm simply wondering what your justification is. Because I really don't know, because I'm new.

Infantry blobs: Commissars and CC weapons are pivotal in big infantry squad blobs. Without them you can only fire guns and you have small to no chance to win a CC. You can think that you will avoid CCs, but infantry blob is big unit, it is quite slow and has bad manoeuvreability so your opponent can usually catch you with ease. There are many fast units, which would tear your blob apart in CC and even the non-dedicated close combat units can give you a hard time without power weapons (or lock you up in CC to the rest of the game or simply destroy your unit in 1 turn through sweeping advance if you do not have a commissar).

Orders and command: PCS do not have Bring it down, but you do not need that order in that particular list. CCS is a lot better unit than PCS, but from my experience it is killed very soon, giving your opponent quite easy slay-the-warlord point. Lord Commissar on the other hand is not easy to kill when marching around 30 guys. You can save your CCS with some transport, but you have already said you do not want chimeras. You can put CCS in a vendetta, but then you are not using orders and you need that extra vendetta. You also pray that you opponent would not shot it down.

My favourite orders are FRFSRF and MMM, so I do not need a CCS at all. Bring it down is useless for me, because I do not use units which would benefit from it (you can use HWTs, but they are LD7, so you orders have not a great chance to work). Fire on my target is another order I do not use. Get back into the fight seems nice, but with commissars in squads, you do not need it.

About Vendetta: The best unit we currently have. But it will not simply win you the game, do not listen to guys who say that. It is the best anti-tank in our codex (our other options are not really good), the best AA in our codex, great for transporting cheap units with low range (flamers PCS, melta units). Every IG army which wants to play competitively should have some of them. I do not recommend to use them in squadrons.

 Lothar wrote:

 Tailor wrote:
Don't PCS lack the ability to use Bring it down? I thought that was a really great order and pivotal to play? I can see the effectiveness of using a Lord Commisar and definitely think those units will have more bite in CC with the power weapons but at the end of the day, I'm still guard, my sergeants only have 1 wound, no save to speak of, and low I, is it worth trying to kit them for CC?

I'm not trying to flame your list at all so please don't take it that way, I appreciate all input! This has been great for me, as well as the other thread, I'm simply wondering what your justification is. Because I really don't know, because I'm new.

Infantry blobs: Commissars and CC weapons are pivotal in big infantry squad blobs. Without them you can only fire guns and you have small to no chance to win a CC. You can think that you will avoid CCs, but infantry blob is big unit, it is quite slow and has bad manoeuvreability so your opponent can usually catch you with ease. There are many fast units, which would tear your blob apart in CC and even the non-dedicated close combat units can give you a hard time without power weapons (or lock you up in CC to the rest of the game or simply destroy your unit in 1 turn through sweeping advance if you do not have a commissar).

.

With regards to infantry and power weapons, in anything short of a 5-squad blob, they are not really going to save you from a dedicated CC units. You ca expect to have one challanged out, and the rest will not hit hard enough. I agree commissars are usesful for not being swept, but the 10 points for a power weapon could go towards upgrading an AC to an LC, or a flamer to a plasma gun. On the whole, I find that a better use of points as they can do damage over several turns, rather than one turn in CC and thn being swept or shot. Over the course of a game, one plasmagun will probably kill as much as a power axe would, but the difference is you can pick the target, and can kill stuff before it hits you, rather than at I1 in CC, by which point it's probably too late. I do see that this is a matter of opinion, so don't think I'm criticising your point, I'm just discussing the alternatives.

I'm with Paradigm, you'd be better off saving the points from power weapons for special or heavy weapons.
I was thinking of doing a 30 and 20 for my eventual IG army, or 30 and 2 10s to provide numbers and obj capture. A couple of those, with HWTs. Then 2 veteran squads, one chimera one Valkyrie. Beyond that I'm not sure, probably CCS and primaris psyker with PBS. Is this a good solid core?

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
I'm with Paradigm, you'd be better off saving the points from power weapons for special or heavy weapons.
I was thinking of doing a 30 and 20 for my eventual IG army, or 30 and 2 10s to provide numbers and obj capture. A couple of those, with HWTs. Then 2 veteran squads, one chimera one Valkyrie. Beyond that I'm not sure, probably CCS and primaris psyker with PBS. Is this a good solid core?

This looks solid enough as a foundation. 2 platoons in that sort of setup give you a good core of infantry, and should only cost around 600 points, leaving plenty of points for even more stuff. I would suggest one defensive platoon, armed with meltas and LC, to possibly use an ADL or just defend the back/midfield, and a more agreesive platoon, possibly with flamers. I would say keep PCS all with flamers behind the infantry blobs, it is a great unit and ditry cheap.

I would hesitate to run just a single chimera, as it will just become a target for all the AT on the board. I would certainly add a primaris, and probably a CCS at 1500 points, for more orders coverage and access to BID for your LC platoon. I have no experience with the PBS, but people seem to have success them. I can see them working well with artillery as well, making pinning more effective. Consider adding either russes or artilletry for some serious killing power. I would probably choose one or the other.

Thanks, no conscript gets anywhere without a veteran to guide and lead. I was thinking a punisher vanquisher and executioner. I have no real artillery knowledge but a basilisk or manticore wouldn't go amiss. I'll also mount my CCS and maybe a small platoon in a chimera too. Then a hellhound squadron possibly