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Bit of a debate going at my local gaming club.

It's about whether a lone model (mainly Monsters. Dragons, Griffons ect..) can pivot for free during a fly move / flying march.
The "Lone Models and Movement" rule (p27) says that they can make as many pivots during its movement as it likes.
"Fly" (p70) is of course a different method of movement to the standard rules, and an advanced rule compared to the basic "Lone Models" rule.

If pivoting is allowed, this leads to things like Monsters flying backwards, zig-zagging, or landing beside a unit, turing to face it and getting a breath weapon right down it's files.

Are there some for/against points I've missed?

I don't think you missed anything.
That is the bonus to lone models.
You still must have front arc for charging and you since you are on your own you are easily targeted by shooting and spells.

Peasant wrote:
You still must have front arc for charging

Absolutely, no one is trying to use a pivot for charging.

But the club can't agree if it's legal to use the pivots during a Fly move.
Also on a large base the pivot can add an inch or two to total movement.

Not sure why you would need to pivot mid flight though... why zig zag when you can fly over stuff. Pivotint at the end is one of the main benefits of flying models.

If you couldn't pivot during flight, fly would often be a penalty for monsters.

 grendel083 wrote:

Peasant wrote:
You still must have front arc for charging

Absolutely, no one is trying to use a pivot for charging.

But the club can't agree if it's legal to use the pivots during a Fly move.
Also on a large base the pivot can add an inch or two to total movement.

I think you can pivot all you want during flying.

As long as the furthest edge of the base doesn't end up more than the maximum movement away from the starting point of the base.

Just like any other movement, no part of the base can end up further away than the maximum move distance.

Nothing in the Fly! rules states it is not movement; thus your allowance to pivot during movement still applies.

Thanks all.
Just trying to get some solid RAW arguements either way.

probably worth adding to this that P11 basic rules vs advanced rules are being used to argue pivoting is not permitted.

argument being that they say that a 'fly' is an alternative move and will remove the pivot on p27.

How do they think that fly is more specific? Fly doesn't mention not being able to pivot. It does the opposite in fact - all fliers are skirmishers, so can freely reform as much as they like. Pivoting is just a free reform for a lone model.

Niteware wrote:
How do they think that fly is more specific?

"Fly" being a special rule is an Advanced rule by the definition of p11, while "Lone Models" is a basic rule, and thus is overridden. Fly makes no mention of allowing pivots.

 grendel083 wrote:

Niteware wrote:
How do they think that fly is more specific?

"Fly" being a special rule is an Advanced rule by the definition of p11, while "Lone Models" is a basic rule, and thus is overridden. Fly makes no mention of allowing pivots.

Fly is a special rule that says a model starts and ends on the ground, so they still have to follow the rules for ground movement when starting and finishing their movement. It is still an individual model, unless there are two, then they gain skirmish.

So you would actually start where you are, find the center-point of your "unit" (the model) pivot if you want, make a 10 inch glide move, land, and pivot again if you want to. The important factor seems to be that from beginning to end, the center point of the model cannot move more than 10 inches.

 grendel083 wrote:

Niteware wrote:
How do they think that fly is more specific?

"Fly" being a special rule is an Advanced rule by the definition of p11, while "Lone Models" is a basic rule, and thus is overridden. Fly makes no mention of allowing pivots.

Only when they conflict.

Find the conflict. Namely, find where in "Fly" it states you cannot pivot.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Niteware wrote:
How do they think that fly is more specific?

"Fly" being a special rule is an Advanced rule by the definition of p11, while "Lone Models" is a basic rule, and thus is overridden. Fly makes no mention of allowing pivots.

Only when they conflict.

Find the conflict. Namely, find where in "Fly" it states you cannot pivot.

Exactly - there is no conflict.
I still don't see why you would be pivoting mid-flight anyway - there is nowhere that you can get to with a pivot that you cannot fly straight to. When on the ground, you are a lone model and can pivot all you like, or you are a unit of fliers and can freely reform.

Niteware wrote:
there is nowhere that you can get to with a pivot that you cannot fly straight to.

Arkhan is limited with his arcs if he uses his chariot.
Especially between units/terrain/etc.

Niteware wrote:
I still don't see why you would be pivoting mid-flight anyway.

I could be wrong but I think there's some new Lizardmen units or combo that can benefit. Something about damaging each unit they pass over?

True, same for flame phoenix.

True, didn't think about that.

I would think that the actual flight movement is a straight line. But other than the rules using the word "glide" there really isn't much clarification. I think that the only time you can pivor is when you are on the ground though.

I think all the fly-by attacks (at least the recent versions) are specifically written so that they can only affect one of the units that you just flew over

just checked, HiE and LM fly-by attacks only affect one target

Which stops one kind of problem, but doesn't say if you could fly in a v to do a bombing run (with total movement of under 10"

I would say that they could, everything about the fly rule is about giving models that lack mobility normally the mobility of movement and free re-forms.

with P27 granting lone model units the ability to pivot there wasn't ever a need give them any particular SR as they already had all the mobillity that they needed to use the fly rule effectivly.

I've had chance to sit back and think about it some more and I would say that if you were going to lable the pivot as anything, it would be a maneouver, this particular one has an unlimited use with no penalty, as it certainly isn't moving the model anywhere else.

as such models should be able to pivot on the spot as many times as they like during a fly move, showing their mobillity over those units confined on the ground.

P27 even goes into the fact that the pivot is there to represent the freedom they have of not having to remain ranked up to others in their unit.

to me it is very clear cut.

p27 pivot augments normal movement in the basic section

fly as an advanced movement rule replaces the standard movment rules but is still augmented by any other rules (such as the pivot) for the purposes of movement as there is no conflict.

the fast cavelry and skirmisher rules augment both the fly rule and basic movement, they had to named in the fly rule as the fly rule, fast cavelry rule and skirmisher rules are all advanced rules so couldn't over-rule each other using the basic vs advanced.

To pivot you have to be at a stationary point though, since every pivot (even for a lone model) is based on a very specific point on the table. The rules don't mention a straight line, but I do think it's implied by the wording used.

1) It talks about a "swoop" or a "glide", both imply a straight movement.
2) It says "starts on the ground, takes off, flies to where it wishes to go, and then lands". Fly is a way to get from point A to point B and the rules really don't read like you can just take the scenic route..
3) The rules also read "this is chiefly because it's impractical to suspend models over the battlefield,...". If you can't suspend a model over the battlefield, then how do you find the pivot point?
4) How do you accurately measure a pivoting flight move?

Just seems like pivoting is not supported, at least in my opinion.

I also think that the rules didn't address it better because up until the last few books, there has not been a reason for people to even question the rule.

Prior to HE, the reason you picked a model with "Fly" is to get that maximum movement. You want to go as far as possible, and since you passed over obstacles in the way a straight line will always get you farther than a line that includes a pivot. You either wanted to go 10 inches and went straight, or you flew less and still went straight.

But HE, and the arrival of "fly over stuff and kill it", introduced an additional rule that people didn't think about when they wrote the "fly" rule. Now people might want to pivot to get a weird flight path, a scenario they didn't think about when they wrote the BRB.

So this might get handled in a FAQ in the future and in the meantime it is probably best to have a house rule or to ask a TO before an event.

it actually addresses it as the move being made counts as in 'open ground' (second paragraph).

however the purposes of the argument are, at this point at least, not with regards to changing direction mid flight, but the pivot at the start and end of the movement.

i.e. I want to go to spot A from spot B, I point myself in that direction, fly there, turn to face an enemy. my move ends.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
it actually addresses it as the move being made counts as in 'open ground' (second paragraph).

however the purposes of the argument are, at this point at least, not with regards to changing direction mid flight, but the pivot at the start and end of the movement.

i.e. I want to go to spot A from spot B, I point myself in that direction, fly there, turn to face an enemy. my move ends.

Beginning and be pivots seem to be a crystal clear "allowed" IMO.