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Not to really start a rant but i played against a khorne daemons army 2-3 weeks ago and he rolled on the reign of chaos chart and lost nearly his whole army with the exception of like a daemon prince. It's one of the only wins i've had in a while and it felt like an empty win.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Not to really start a rant but i played against a khorne daemons army 2-3 weeks ago and he rolled on the reign of chaos chart and lost nearly his whole army with the exception of like a daemon prince. It's one of the only wins i've had in a while and it felt like an empty win.

Oh yeah. Reign of Chaos is a terrible mechanic. It's one of the few issues the book actually has.

The book has a ton of issues. I've said it a lot, but one of the biggest flaws IMHO is random gifts. Kitting your heroes and lords is maybe 1/4-1/3 of your army selection process and it's largely out of your hands. Most people default to taking the 0th item or BRB weapons and relying on the generic ward or regen.

I would not say its terrible the mechanic is indeed fluffy but the results could use a tone down be more of a inconvenience then "you die and you die"

For instance instead of
result 2 make it all daemons follow the lowest leadership in there unit cant benefit from general presence
result 3 being a random Daemonic Character and his unit that makes them unable to act for this turn
result 4 is reasonable
result 5 Tzeentch removes D3 dispel dice from your foe dispel pool
result 6 Nurgle on a roll of a 6 on each enemy unit lowers armour value by D3 for that turn
result 7 is fine
result 8 Slaanesh roll a 6 on each enemy unit lowers there initiative value by D3 for that turn
result 9 Khorne roll a 6 on each enemy unit always strikes last but gives them Frenzy for that turn
result 10 is reasonable
result 11 Daemonic possession just steals a enemy spell and gives it to a random Daemonic Character
result 12 I have no issues with that I rarely get it and the unit normally dies anyway.

 Kaligoth wrote:
I would not say its terrible the mechanic is indeed fluffy but the results could use a tone down be more of a inconvenience then "you die and you die"

It pretty much is. Most of the time, it adds unnecessary time onto gameplay, and the fact that it can take off entire demon armies just makes it worse. It has the capability to turn favourable combats into unfavourable combats just by rolling poorly for the winds of magic.

I would be happier with the gifts if, as 626 pointed out, the greater gifts were all defensive so you could get some kind of protection. I also agree that the gifts need to be better than the equal point sword you can default to simply because they're random. For example:

Lesser Gifts: "Offensive"
0: Same
1: Same but for any model in a challenge (makes it similar to Eye of the Gods)
2: Multiple Wounds (2)
3: +3 WS
4: +2 Attacks
5: S2 Breath Weapon that ignores armour
6: ASF and +3I

Greater Gifts: "Defensive"
0: Same but includes armour
1: +1 Wound and Chaos Armor
2: 2+ Armour and 2+ ward versus first hit
3: +2 toughness
4: +2 Strength and +1A
5: Every unsaved wound caused in combat (not from stomp/thunderstomp) roll a D6 on a 4+ gain a wound up to starting total
6: 3+ Armour and reroll failed armour saves

Exalted Gifts: "Magic"
0: Same for Hellforged
1: One use: Enemy wizards within D6 x 5 inches take T test, if failed they lose a magic level and forget a random spell (daemon of nurgle can pick this one without rolling)
2: Dispels a spell on a 2+ then on a 4+ steals the spell (like Glean Magic) (daemon of tzeentch can pick this one without rolling)
3: Wizard targeting bearer must pass leadership on 3D6 or must select a different target (daemon of slaanesh can pick this one without rolling)
4: +2 to Dispel rolls (unless wizard level is higher) and extra dispel dice per attempt (daemon of khorne can pick this one without rolling)
5: Knows 1 more spell and has +1 to cast (pseudo-level 5)
6: Doubly Blessed

I've play tested these a bit and they don't seem so ridiculous or OP because you can't plan on them, but at the same time it makes you not want to just take the default every time either. Also we tried to make it so that with the gifts Heralds and Daemon Princes would be more attractive since I think they're a bit overpriced now.

A great unclean one with a 2+ armour and a charmed shield? Not ridiculous at all. Totally balanced.

One thing I'd really love to see for the Greater Daemons to help give them some added character is to give them "Archetypes" similar to the Herald Locii abilities for a pts increase.
For example, Tzeentch could be something like;
- Lesser Changebringer = All enemy models in base to base take an automatic S3 hit with the Warpflame rule before any blows are struck in combat. (+10 pts)
- Greater Dark Magister = The Daemon adds an additional +1 to all their casting & dispel rolls. (+20 pts)
- Exalted Master of Sorcery = May choose to generate spells from any of the spell lores in the BRB. (+25 pts).

Khorne could be;
- Lesser Slaughterman = May re-roll missed To-Hit rolls in the first round of combat. (+30 pts)
- Greater Spell Destroyer = MR3 & enemy Wizards within 12" may not attempt to channel dice. Enemy Wizards in base-to-base contact may not add their wizard levels to their casting/dispel attempts. (+45 pts)
- Exalted Destroyer of Worlds = Replace the models attacks with 2D6+2 attacks. Model may not use a Magic Weapon. (+60 pts)

Nurgle;
- Lesser Lord of Rot = Enemy models in base-to-base contact suffer an automatic wound on a D6 roll of 5+. (+10 pts)
- Greater Host of Contagion = S3 Breath weapon. Armour saves suffer a -3 modifier. (+25 pts)
- Exalted Plaguebringer = All enemy models in base-to-base contact lose ASF (if they have it) and gain ASL. (+50 pts)

Slaanesh;
- Lesser Tormentor = Enemy model who suffers an unsaved wound must pass a Ld test to attack the Daemon. (+10 pts)
- Greater Spirit Swallower = If the Daemon kills one or more enemies in close combat, roll a D6. On a 6 regain a single lost wound. (+15 pts)
- Exalted Radiance of Dark Glory = Enemy unit in base-to-base contact suffer -1Ld. At the start of their turn, enemy units within 6" must pass an Initiative test if they LoS or suffer -1Ld to any Ld tests. (+50 pts)

 thedarkavenger wrote:
A great unclean one with a 2+ armour and a charmed shield? Not ridiculous at all. Totally balanced.

They can get that now for the price of an exalted gift. Not terribly reliable but it is possible. Not saying my gifts are the epitome of balance or anything though...

I guess my point is the random gifts should be better than the equal points spent on a magic item from the book, because they're random. So Armour of Silvered Steel is pretty much a greater gift, so the armour option should be better than a 2+ cannot be improved armour save. Maybe a 1+?

I like the archetype idea too. I was kind of hinting at something like that with exalted gifts that certain god-aligned daemons could automatically pick. But I think I like the "super-locii" more.

they need to rename gifts to Boons
Boons of Fury = attacking gifts (25 points)
Boons of Warding = defensive gifts (50 points)
Boons of the dark god = Exalted gifts (75 points)

I have a simple and efficient idea to fix the gifts
Scrap them completely
Then keep 10-15 magic items from the full list and give them access to the BRB items
Gifts are fixed, done

 TanKoL wrote:
I have a simple and efficient idea to fix the gifts
Scrap them completely
Then keep 10-15 magic items from the full list and give them access to the BRB items
Gifts are fixed, done

Absolutely not! If people still whine that Daemons are still zomg!brokenz!!!1! right now, I can't wait to hear the cries of 'uber cheese when we get to see the likes of a GUO w/ASF sword + Glittering Scales + Charmed Shield + Dragonbane Gem + Other Trickster's Shard...
Or the Bloodthirster w/re-rollable 2+ save and 2++ vs. Flaming attacks...
Or whatever other insanely cheesey combinations one could build out of the BRB items.

Daemons don't need access to all the BRB items and for good reason. What we need though is for our own items to not be mostly utter gak and/or carbon copies of readily accessible weapons.

I honestly love the idea of the randomised Gifts - they actually work quite well in 40k. Fantasy just got a raw deal with the results being bunk.
The Lesser table is currently the only one that's really worth the investment right now.

The Greater table could easily however become along the lines of;
1. Corpulescence = +1W and Regeneration 4+
2. Soul Eater = If cause any wounds in combat, regain a lost wound on a 2+
3. Dark Blessing = re-roll failed Ward Saves
4. Power Vortex = adds 1 dice to both the power & dispel dice pools
5. Daemonic Resilience = +1T and can never be wounded on better than a 3+
6. Warp-forged Armour = 3+ armour save. Magic Weapons in base contact count as mundane weapons of their type. (ie: magical GW that strikes at initiative becomes a mundane GW)

Exalted Table:
1. Doubly Blessed
2. Riftbringer = every wound caused in combat creates either a new unit of Furies OR a new unit of Lesser Daemons of the same God.
3. Aura of Disruption = MR2 and adds a 'free' dispel dice to any dispel attempt made by the Daemon.
4. Dark Insanity = May make an additional attack for each unsaved wound caused. These additional attacks cannot generate further attacks.
5. Aura of Dark Majesty = All Daemons within 6" may use the model's Ld, even if they are not of the same God.
6. Warp Tether = Model may never suffer more than a single wound per attack. Attacks that deal multiple wounds only ever deal 1 wound.

Making 50 lists of what the gifts should be I don't know if that's relevant. It should be in Proposed Rules instead of here.

I haven't heard anyone complain that DoC is broken anytime recently. They still did months after release, but I think they hadn't read it or played it or seen it and were just griping about 7th and continuing to do so.

It is a bit silly that:
-GOD OF MAGIC = sucky magic units
-GOD OF WAR = sucky at fighting, good with cannons
-GOD OF DISEASE = hard to kill
-GOD OF PORN = elf

 DukeRustfield wrote:
Making 50 lists of what the gifts should be I don't know if that's relevant. It should be in Proposed Rules instead of here.

I haven't heard anyone complain that DoC is broken anytime recently. They still did months after release, but I think they hadn't read it or played it or seen it and were just griping about 7th and continuing to do so.

It is a bit silly that:
-GOD OF MAGIC = sucky magic units
-GOD OF WAR = sucky at fighting, good with cannons
-GOD OF DISEASE = hard to kill
-GOD OF PORN = elf

To be fair, Horrors aren't actually bad at magic. Warlocks are just horribly broken!

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 DukeRustfield wrote:
Making 50 lists of what the gifts should be I don't know if that's relevant. It should be in Proposed Rules instead of here.

I haven't heard anyone complain that DoC is broken anytime recently. They still did months after release, but I think they hadn't read it or played it or seen it and were just griping about 7th and continuing to do so.

It is a bit silly that:
-GOD OF MAGIC = sucky magic units
-GOD OF WAR = sucky at fighting, good with cannons
-GOD OF DISEASE = hard to kill
-GOD OF PORN = elf

To be fair, Horrors aren't actually bad at magic. Warlocks are just horribly broken!

To be truthful, Horrors are only really good if you can manipulate their spells, at which point they do indeed border on brokenly good.

Horrors aren't bad at sucky magic, that is quite true. But being good at sucky magic doesn't make them good at magic. You have finite PD and having some horrors cast some TZ spells with less bonuses you can get elsewhere doesn't spell GOD OF MAGIC. It's simply of limited value.

If horrors could transform of Kaden or Mindrazor or such things, then you'd be like, okay those guys are dangerous. But they aren't. And they're frankly expensive for casters who are pretty kneecapped.

You can make a good casty TZ pile with a herald and bonus, but you're talking like 500ish points. You can get a beatstick greater daemon for that who has a choice of lores and bonuses.

thedarkavenger wrote:To be fair, Horrors aren't actually bad at magic. Warlocks are just horribly broken!

I played my DoT vs DE right about when their new book hit. Warlocks vs Horrors showed just how much they got 'caster units' wrong with daemons and broken with delves ...

Experiment 626 wrote:To be truthful, Horrors are only really good if you can manipulate their spells, at which point they do indeed border on brokenly good.

Admittedly, Gateway is pretty cool, now that I've started spending the points (and getting lucky) to get it onto horror blocks. Buuuuuuut I don't think that quite makes them work, outside of 10 horror min/max spam, comped out in most events I play in (and also stupid).

DukeRustfield wrote:Horrors aren't bad at sucky magic, that is quite true. But being good at sucky magic doesn't make them good at magic. You have finite PD and having some horrors cast some TZ spells with less bonuses you can get elsewhere doesn't spell GOD OF MAGIC. It's simply of limited value.

If horrors could transform of Kaden or Mindrazor or such things, then you'd be like, okay those guys are dangerous. But they aren't. And they're frankly expensive for casters who are pretty kneecapped.

On the question of what's wrong with the DoC, my first answer is the gifts - not that they're random per se, but as noted that the charts are badly designed. Also that there's no magical standard chart, because 25 points in basic standards is stupidly limiting.

And my second answer is that the Lore of Tizz is sorely lacking. Drop one of the worthless 'template with SD6' spells and give me a stat booster: +D6S would be simple and random enough. And then drop another worthless 'template with SD6' spell and give me an AOE SD6 damage spell - my blocks are destined to be stuck in combat, how about something for them to do while they're there? I'd actually be pretty content with just an augment and a short range AOE to make combat painful, rather than a multi-turn grind where my only hope is to roll 6's ftw (S2-3 uberalles).

- Salvage

 Boss Salvage wrote:
On the question of what's wrong with the DoC, my first answer is the gifts - not that they're random per se, but as noted that the charts are badly designed. Also that there's no magical standard chart, because 25 points in basic standards is stupidly limiting.

For the Standards, I think we'd be perfectly fine if...
1. 4 of the banners from the previous book where brought back as a 0-1 option. Such as 0-1 units of Horrors could take the Banner of Change which had the bound spell that did 2D6/S4 hits to a unit in base-to-base.
Khorne could get a banner that gives a single unit Devastating Charge.
Nurgle a banner that once per game allows the unit to re-rolled failed to-wound rolls
Slaanesh a banner that makes the unit Stubborn for their first DI test.

2. Bring back a pair of BSB options.

 Boss Salvage wrote:
And my second answer is that the Lore of Tizz is sorely lacking. Drop one of the worthless 'template with SD6' spells and give me a stat booster: +D6S would be simple and random enough. And then drop another worthless 'template with SD6' spell and give me an AOE SD6 damage spell - my blocks are destined to be stuck in combat, how about something for them to do while they're there? I'd actually be pretty content with just an augment and a short range AOE to make combat painful, rather than a multi-turn grind where my only hope is to roll 6's ftw (S2-3 uberalles).

- Salvage

Pink Fire & Bolt are the main culprits IMHO, as well as Blue Fire's 'powered-up' version being a simple range boost instead of keeping the shorter range and adding more hits.
Make Pink Fire a combat-based augment and make Bolt not suck and suddenly Lore of Tzeentch is on par with Nurgle and only slightly behind Slaanesh.

I really think the LOC should of gotten some better casting options. Chose one of 3 set ups.

Roll 4 spells of tz or metal and gain all sig spells from the 8 main lores

Loremaster TZ and roll 4 on ANY lore from any race.

roll 4 tz spells, but be +1 to cast and dispel, and roll twice on miscast chart, pick result.

Aye, bit curious that the quote-unquote embodiment of the Chaos God of Magicks isn't particularly awesome at magic, or not much different from a variety of mortal level 4's - who I might add tend to be a lot more resilient against cannonballs Hence why the big chicken usually gets an Eternal Beatstick and goes and smashes things instead (something that most mortal level 4's are less good at)

Loremaster TIZZ or METAL would have been enough for me, as much as I'd like bonuses to cast and such too.

(Wait, don't WoC Tizz casters get bonuses to cast? WTF?)

- Salvage