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 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Telling gay kids that they're going to Hell is child abuse. There's no "raise kids the way you want" freedom about it.

Are these your gay kids that you're saying will go to hell, or someone else's gay kids that you're telling will go to hell? one of these is parenting from a bigoted or narrow worldview (not always interconnected those two), the other is just being a dick to someone else's kid.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Telling gay kids that they're going to Hell is child abuse. There's no "raise kids the way you want" freedom about it.

Are these your gay kids that you're saying will go to hell, or someone else's gay kids that you're telling will go to hell? one of these is parenting from a bigoted or narrow worldview (not always interconnected those two), the other is just being a dick to someone else's kid.

Telling it to your own kids is child abuse. There are good arguments that Hell itself is child abuse. The Jews don't believe in it. The fact that it doesn't come up until Judaism 2.0 (Christianity) is proof that it's just a human invention, assuming that the Jewish god (Yahweh/God/Allah) is real.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Telling gay kids that they're going to Hell is child abuse. There's no "raise kids the way you want" freedom about it.

Are these your gay kids that you're saying will go to hell, or someone else's gay kids that you're telling will go to hell? one of these is parenting from a bigoted or narrow worldview (not always interconnected those two), the other is just being a dick to someone else's kid.

Telling it to your own kids is child abuse. There are good arguments that Hell itself is child abuse. The Jews don't believe in it. The fact that it doesn't come up until Judaism 2.0 (Christianity) is proof that it's just a human invention, assuming that the Jewish god (Yahweh/God/Allah) is real.

Maybe god realised that Christians are evil and so invented somewhere for them all to go?

Some jews have a hell-like place they believe in. It just lacks the permanency of christian hell.

Wanting to see others punished for their actions after they die is hardly a christian thing. They've just gone into detail about it.

While I commend Chris Christie on signing the bill rather than making some arbitrary token gesture to appease the most extreme members of his party, I feel it's important to point out that the bill had a veto-proof majority. His signature was unnecessary. Still, good move regardless.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 generalgrog wrote:
This is a fallacial argument.

Maybe no one is entering the fray because of the buzz saw/gang up mentality that happens on Dakka to anyone that has an opinion that might remotely believe that homosexuality is not "ok".

GG

You can think and say plenty of things - I don't like rap and find most of the rap culture to be something I don't like. However, I am not going to cheer for "Rap conversion centres" where people's trousers are held up with a belt and they are played rock music at high volumes to "reeducate" them.

A personal opinion is fine, an attempt to force your views on others is not. Think that homosexuality is bad all you want; discuss your dislike of it with likeminded (or not) people all you want (in the appropriate setting if applicable), but don't start loading homosexuals onto the train to "reeducation camps" and try to claim the moral high ground or indeed the right to do such things.

Holy gak.

I was pretty indifferent to this before, but now that I know New Jersey state law required homosexuals to board trains to reeducation camps, rather than the therapy being voluntary, I'm going to organize a march.

That's insane. I can't believe they got away with that.

 Seaward wrote:
I was pretty indifferent to this before, but now that I know New Jersey state law required homosexuals to board trains to reeducation camps, rather than the therapy being voluntary, I'm going to organize a march.

That's insane. I can't believe they got away with that.

I don't recall saying that the state is rounding up homosexuals and forcing them to undergo "treatment", but your attempt to appeal to ridicule is mildly entertaining. The reference relates to individuals or groups holding to the viewpoint that homosexuality is something that needs treating forcing people to undergo said "treatment" against their will turning round and saying they have the moral right to enforce their views on others against their will, despite crying foul over every perceived "oppression" of own point of view by anyone else.

Edit: Typos

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I don't recall saying that the state is rounding up homosexuals and forcing them to undergo "treatment", but your attempt to appeal to ridicule is mildly entertaining. The reference relates to individuals or groups holding to the viewpoint that homosexuality is something that needs treating forcing people to undergo said "treatment" against their will turning round and saying they have the moral right to enforce their views on others against their will, despite crying foul over every perceived "oppression" of own point of view by anyone else.

Edit: Typos

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Think that homosexuality is bad all you want; discuss your dislike of it with likeminded (or not) people all you want (in the appropriate setting if applicable), but don't start loading homosexuals onto the train to "reeducation camps" and try to claim the moral high ground or indeed the right to do such things.

Okay, if not the state, then who is starting to load homosexuals onto a train to reeducation camps while claiming the moral high ground?

 Seaward wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I don't recall saying that the state is rounding up homosexuals and forcing them to undergo "treatment", but your attempt to appeal to ridicule is mildly entertaining. The reference relates to individuals or groups holding to the viewpoint that homosexuality is something that needs treating forcing people to undergo said "treatment" against their will turning round and saying they have the moral right to enforce their views on others against their will, despite crying foul over every perceived "oppression" of own point of view by anyone else.

Edit: Typos

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Think that homosexuality is bad all you want; discuss your dislike of it with likeminded (or not) people all you want (in the appropriate setting if applicable), but don't start loading homosexuals onto the train to "reeducation camps" and try to claim the moral high ground or indeed the right to do such things.

Okay, if not the state, then who is starting to load homosexuals onto a train to reeducation camps while claiming the moral high ground?

GG has the viewpoints (as far as I am aware) that homosexuality is extremely wrong and people related to those who are homosexual (or indeed any "right thinking" person) should be able to "convert them" to being straight, or at least he gives the impression of suggesting that such behaviour should be "ok". Yet on the other hand he cries foul every time there is even the slightest hint (and sometimes even when there is not) of "christians" being "oppressed" by others. Me saying "loading them onto trains" was a colourful way of saying "forcing them against their will" to have this kind of "treatment".

I am suggesting it is extremely hypocritical for GG to defend the "right" of people to force others to undergo such treatment while wanting special protections for "christians" and/or "christian activities/beliefs".

I'm still unclear as to who is forcing homosexuals to undergo this 'therapy' in New Jersey.

 Seaward wrote:
I'm still unclear as to who is forcing homosexuals to undergo this 'therapy' in New Jersey.

Parents of gay kids, as the article in the OP makes very clear.

 Peregrine wrote:
Parents of gay kids, as the article in the OP makes very clear.

So I take it if it was banned for anyone under the age of 18, everybody'd be happy?

 Seaward wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Parents of gay kids, as the article in the OP makes very clear.

So I take it if it was banned for anyone under the age of 18, everybody'd be happy?

That would solve most of the coercion problem, and all of it if you somehow extended it to people over 18 who are still dependent on their parents and vulnerable to coercion. But it wouldn't do anything to solve the fraud problem, where you have people selling a "service" that doesn't work to people who desperately want to believe it will.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Telling gay kids that they're going to Hell is child abuse. There's no "raise kids the way you want" freedom about it.

Are these your gay kids that you're saying will go to hell, or someone else's gay kids that you're telling will go to hell? one of these is parenting from a bigoted or narrow worldview (not always interconnected those two), the other is just being a dick to someone else's kid.

Telling it to your own kids is child abuse. There are good arguments that Hell itself is child abuse. The Jews don't believe in it. The fact that it doesn't come up until Judaism 2.0 (Christianity) is proof that it's just a human invention, assuming that the Jewish god (Yahweh/God/Allah) is real.

Who cares if the Jews don't believe it. If we're going by what the Jews believe, hey they own that Old Testament thing...

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Telling it to your own kids is child abuse. There are good arguments that Hell itself is child abuse. The Jews don't believe in it. The fact that it doesn't come up until Judaism 2.0 (Christianity) is proof that it's just a human invention, assuming that the Jewish god (Yahweh/God/Allah) is real.

How is Hell child abuse? It's an "imaginary" place (so far as we have no proof it exists) that serves as a deterrant for doing bad behavior to people of a specific religion. Telling your child that you should strive to be a good person is not a bad thing whatsoever, and telling your child that if they don't strive to be a good person, then they might get sent to a place where they will be punished is not bad, it's just a little off, but it's not child abuse. The problem is that people think that telling a child they will go to hell because of x, y, or z is stupid because they don't temper it with the fact that in many sects of the Christian religion, God will forgive you for all but a few acts.

Telling a child that they're going to hell because they're gay is stupid, and doing it over a long period of time is neglectful and just shows the stupidity of the parent regardless of religious upbringing.

Hell is far from imaginary. It manifests itself on this plane in the form of Lemoore, CA.

 Seaward wrote:
Hell is far from imaginary. It manifests itself on this plane in the form of Lemoore, CA.

Haha, alright fair enough

Hell indeed.

You want hell?



Spaghetti Junction.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Telling it to your own kids is child abuse. There are good arguments that Hell itself is child abuse. The Jews don't believe in it. The fact that it doesn't come up until Judaism 2.0 (Christianity) is proof that it's just a human invention, assuming that the Jewish god (Yahweh/God/Allah) is real.

How is Hell child abuse? It's an "imaginary" place (so far as we have no proof it exists) that serves as a deterrant for doing bad behavior to people of a specific religion.

This is something I always found amusing when Athiests get all offended when you mention hell. I mean.. how can you be offended or threatened by something you don't believe exists.

GG

 generalgrog wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Telling it to your own kids is child abuse. There are good arguments that Hell itself is child abuse. The Jews don't believe in it. The fact that it doesn't come up until Judaism 2.0 (Christianity) is proof that it's just a human invention, assuming that the Jewish god (Yahweh/God/Allah) is real.

How is Hell child abuse? It's an "imaginary" place (so far as we have no proof it exists) that serves as a deterrant for doing bad behavior to people of a specific religion.

This is something I always found amusing when Athiests get all offended when you mention hell. I mean.. how can you be offended or threatened by something you don't believe exists.

GG

It's not that they're offended by Hell, it's that they're offended by the concept of Hell. It's the "believe or burn" aspect of it. To them, it's a cheap terror tactic that breeds self-righteousness in those that count themselves among the saved.

Ya gotta understand where the opposition is coming from before you start a debate, groggy my boy. I've been lurking in OT for years and that's exactly what your problem is.

~Tim?

 generalgrog wrote:
[This is something I always found amusing when Athiests get all offended when you mention hell. I mean.. how can you be offended or threatened by something you don't believe exists.

Because it makes some of the people who do believe in it do incredibly stupid and/or hateful things.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

 generalgrog wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Telling it to your own kids is child abuse. There are good arguments that Hell itself is child abuse. The Jews don't believe in it. The fact that it doesn't come up until Judaism 2.0 (Christianity) is proof that it's just a human invention, assuming that the Jewish god (Yahweh/God/Allah) is real.

How is Hell child abuse? It's an "imaginary" place (so far as we have no proof it exists) that serves as a deterrant for doing bad behavior to people of a specific religion.

This is something I always found amusing when Athiests get all offended when you mention hell. I mean.. how can you be offended or threatened by something you don't believe exists.

GG

It's not that they're offended by Hell, it's that they're offended by the concept of Hell. It's the "believe or burn" aspect of it. To them, it's a cheap terror tactic that breeds self-righteousness in those that count themselves among the saved.

Ya gotta understand where the opposition is coming from before you start a debate, groggy my boy. I've been lurking in OT for years and that's exactly what your problem is.

~Tim?

So? em and the horse they rode in on. Its not their problem.

 Frazzled wrote:
So? em and the horse they rode in on.

That's not a very nice thing to say to people just because they believe in hell...

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
So? em and the horse they rode in on.

That's not a very nice thing to say to people just because they believe in hell...

Thats to the atheists. If you don't believe in hell, then leave the Jesus freaks the hell alone.

 Frazzled wrote:
Thats to the atheists.

I gathered...

If you don't believe in hell, then leave the Jesus freaks the hell alone.

Hard to leave people the hell alone if you don't believe in hell

The hell you can't. Frankly if you can't leave the hell alone, then, to hell with you hell hell hell hell hell hell

;P

Does this mean I can't use the world "hello" as well?

 generalgrog wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Telling it to your own kids is child abuse. There are good arguments that Hell itself is child abuse. The Jews don't believe in it. The fact that it doesn't come up until Judaism 2.0 (Christianity) is proof that it's just a human invention, assuming that the Jewish god (Yahweh/God/Allah) is real.

How is Hell child abuse? It's an "imaginary" place (so far as we have no proof it exists) that serves as a deterrant for doing bad behavior to people of a specific religion.

This is something I always found amusing when Athiests get all offended when you mention hell. I mean.. how can you be offended or threatened by something you don't believe exists.

GG

A) You can still be scared by something that isn't real. The bogeyman isn't real, but kids are still scared of him. Similarly Hell isn't real, but the concept of "a place you're sent to be punished if you're naughty" will still scare a young kid, and using the concept of hell to scare gay kids about how sinful they are is, to me, equivalent to going up to them and saying "you're going to be beaten up and tortured forever for what you are, you monster"

B) I'm an atheist, and I get offend when people (especially Christians) talk about hell, because they invariably refer to it in the "fire and brimstone" sense, whereas in the Bible it's only referred to as torment, which Is the torment of knowing you're not in heaven. The fire and brimstone version was a much later addition.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Does this mean I can't use the world "hello" as well?

The hell you can't!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Goliath wrote:

 generalgrog wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Telling it to your own kids is child abuse. There are good arguments that Hell itself is child abuse. The Jews don't believe in it. The fact that it doesn't come up until Judaism 2.0 (Christianity) is proof that it's just a human invention, assuming that the Jewish god (Yahweh/God/Allah) is real.

How is Hell child abuse? It's an "imaginary" place (so far as we have no proof it exists) that serves as a deterrant for doing bad behavior to people of a specific religion.

This is something I always found amusing when Athiests get all offended when you mention hell. I mean.. how can you be offended or threatened by something you don't believe exists.

GG

A) You can still be scared by something that isn't real. The bogeyman isn't real, but kids are still scared of him. Similarly Hell isn't real, but the concept of "a place you're sent to be punished if you're naughty" will still scare a young kid, and using the concept of hell to scare gay kids about how sinful they are is, to me, equivalent to going up to them and saying "you're going to be beaten up and tortured forever for what you are, you monster"

B) I'm an atheist, and I get offend when people (especially Christians) talk about hell, because they invariably refer to it in the "fire and brimstone" sense, whereas in the Bible it's only referred to as torment, which Is the torment of knowing you're not in heaven. The fire and brimstone version was a much later addition.

I so don't care if you're offended. Thats not even a logical argument. I'm not offended if you say "You're going straight to nothingness!!!" I just think you're an idiot, or a politician, but I repeat myself.