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My point which you missed is that the Riptide, especially firing a Nova Charged Ion Accelerator is a poor choice of anti AV14.

5/9 is 5/9, not 2/3. You've got only a 55.5% chance of even getting off a Nova Charged IA.

I've shown the IA is not a good AV14 choice.


You said T2 Fusion Blaster suits are too late, well your Riptide Smash/Fusion Blaster suggestions is a T2/T3 suggestion.


The OP asked if his list was viable, the problem comes in when someone makes arguments that don't make sense and keeps arguing the same point.


As to projections, if you aren't factoring them in you aren't likely to be beating any skilled players consistently.

I'm not being hostile or upset. I've pointed out why your suggestion would not help the list, it would make it worse. The 18.5% was against AV13. The Riptide with Earth caste Pilot is significantly more points than the Broadsides.

The reason AV14 is little threat is because AV14 is rarely seen on the competitive scene and as pointed out I've more anti AV14 than most Tau armies (for instance most Farsun bombs only run 4-6 meltas, a lot of trip Riptides only have the Riptides).

If I wanted to put Riptides in this list Is drop all the Broadsides for 3 Riptides and then take double MP on all the suits. But that list would struggle against air and AV14 far more than my list...

Another poster has also pointed out why your advice would make the list worse. Yet you don't listen and start spouting stuff that anyone with a good handle on how 40k works could tell you is wrong...
And you're suggesting that my broadsides can't deal with AT and AA if my opponent brings both and your solution is drop broadsides and take a unit that is neither good at AT or AA.

Zagman wrote:
My point which you missed is that the Riptide, especially firing a Nova Charged Ion Accelerator is a poor choice of anti AV14.

5/9 is 5/9, not 2/3. You've got only a 55.5% chance of even getting off a Nova Charged IA.

I've shown the IA is not a good AV14 choice.


You said T2 Fusion Blaster suits are too late, well your Riptide Smash/Fusion Blaster suggestions is a T2/T3 suggestion.


The OP asked if his list was viable, the problem comes in when someone makes arguments that don't make sense and keeps arguing the same point.


As to projections, if you aren't factoring them in you aren't likely to be beating any skilled players consistently.

55.5%, but what are the chances with the ECPA?

But that wouldn't be it's only job. You would have a pie plate option as well, and a long range attack for an army that does not have one at all.

"You said T2 Fusion Blaster suits are too late, well your Riptide Smash/Fusion Blaster suggestions is a T2/T3 suggestion."

You're absolutely right, but the difference is that the riptide has been in the game the whole time as well. That's why i mentioned that.

"The OP asked if his list was viable, the problem comes in when someone makes arguments that don't make sense and keeps arguing the same point."

So not having an AV14 option, or a long range AT option doesn't make sense? What are you going to do against a leman russ for example? Let's assume he has two leman russes, and he splits them up. These things will happen, and they'll be able to shoot at you probably the entire game without you doing anything in retaliation. You can't reach that with the bsides in this list.

You have no AV14 option at all until T2 MAYBE. Then you suggest that AV14 isnt a threat anyway, that's garbage and you know it. AV14 tanks have plenty of weapon options that can destroy your suits rather easily if you do not handle them (GK for example). and you don't want them free range of motion without worry for 2-3Ts.

This list lacks long range AT options. The AT options to counter that can come in on T2 or T3, and you have no way to deal with AV14 until T2 or T3. That's your weakness.

Btw, there's a Tau poster on here that won the killadelphia tournament with no crisis suits at all, and his AT options were 3 riptides (one was IA) and 3 skyrays.

You're also pushing for an army that lost a lot of it's shooty for some new rules, and one of those new rules you don't even want to use. The only thing you've shown is that a riptide choice would be either a little bit better, or equal to having T2/3 crisis suits with FB dropping in. Oh, and those FB suits would only be good at one thing, where as the riptide would handle MEQ, and hoard armies as well as AT shooting. With the ECPA, you'll have more than a 55.5% chance to pull off all the charges, and with around a 50% chance to pen, AP2, you have a good chance of doing some serious harm to AV14 and lower T1.

Hell, if a riptide doesn't suit your fancy, get a damn HH. Point being, you don't have long range AT, and you don't have a reliable AV14 counter. That's a weakness.


Back to my previous point about army selection, i think you'd have a better time if you did something like this using normal Tau Codex:

1749 points total

Shadowsun: Warlord 135
Commander: target lock, drone controller, 2 Missile Pods, Marker Drone 140
Bodyguard 2 Crisis: 4 Melta, 2 Flamers, Neuroweb System Jammer, PENchip 151 (Infiltrate/outflank with shadowsun.)
Bodyguard 2 Crisis: 4 Melta, 2 Flamers, 134

3 Crisis: 6 Plasma, 156
3 Crisis: 6 Plasma, 156
3 Crisis: 5 Flamers, 1 Burstcannon, 101

6 FW 54
6 FW 54
10 Kroot 65

4 Marker Drones 56
5 Pathfinders 55

2 Broadsides: HYMP, EWO, 2 Missile Drones 164
2 Broadsides: HYMP, EWO, 2 Missile Drones 164
2 Broadsides: HYMP, EWO, 2 Missile Drones 164

So, you lose out on a commander with ML drones, and you lose 6 total missile drones. You also lose that squad of suits with all the burst cannons. But you gain a shadowsun that can infiltrate a squad of FB suits, just like you have them DS, but they get more surviability with +3 cover and 3D6 assault moves as well as some tricks to make their shooting extra strong.

The burst cannon crisis suits are made up a little bit with the troop options, and the lost ML drones are made up a little bit with normal Pathfinders. The kroot are there to outflank and maybe grab an objective. Troops choices are a bit weak though.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:
I'm not being hostile or upset. I've pointed out why your suggestion would not help the list, it would make it worse. The 18.5% was against AV13. The Riptide with Earth caste Pilot is significantly more points than the Broadsides.

The reason AV14 is little threat is because AV14 is rarely seen on the competitive scene and as pointed out I've more anti AV14 than most Tau armies (for instance most Farsun bombs only run 4-6 meltas, a lot of trip Riptides only have the Riptides).

If I wanted to put Riptides in this list Is drop all the Broadsides for 3 Riptides and then take double MP on all the suits. But that list would struggle against air and AV14 far more than my list...

Another poster has also pointed out why your advice would make the list worse. Yet you don't listen and start spouting stuff that anyone with a good handle on how 40k works could tell you is wrong...
And you're suggesting that my broadsides can't deal with AT and AA if my opponent brings both and your solution is drop broadsides and take a unit that is neither good at AT or AA.

Every triptide list i've seen has one IA profile on it. The guy that won killadelphia had a IA riptide in his list. Farsun bombs are not even a competitive list.

The suggestion is to split up the burden. I don't think it's a good idea to have one unit cover the two things that you'll be seeing a lot of in any given game.

I also never suggested to remove all of your bsides. Just one pair. I guess not only will removing one pair suddenly make your opponent go for crisis suits, it also means that you can no longer handle AA either.

3 crisis suits with 2x MP and VT would be a relatively cheap AA option for 216. (it's actually cheaper than Bsides for the same amount of shots ^_^) Suggesting ALL your suits need to have MP to sort of handle AA after you get 3 riptides is a gross exaggeration. And where the hell are you getting this 3 riptide nonsense. I never suggested it. I was just pointing out that your long range AT and AV14 support doesn't exist, and that will cause you problems, so why not a riptide?(or a HH)

I pointed out that ONE(1) Enclave riptide would serve you well, considering the topic of the thread, and you and this other guy are getting defensive.

Look, If you have a hard on for suits, but not the big ol stupid riptide, just tell us. Or maybe you don't have the money to buy a riptide, so you don't want to include it, that's fine too. You're making a lot of outrageous claims (If i add one riptide he'll go for mah crisis suits!), and i can't find a reason for it.

Shadowsun can't infiltrate a unit. That's not how the rules work. Basically you've illustrated a total lack of understanding of what we've said, the competitive scene and the new Tau codex.

So you think Shadowsun can infiltrate with crisis teams thus shows you don't know the codex or rules. Then you think the weakness of my list is ranged AT, but by this you actually mean ranged anti-AV14. This shows a lack of understanding of the codex. The Tau codex has no efficient way to deal with AV14 at long range. Hammerheads suck against AV14 even with Longstrike piloting them. Likewise Riptides are not an effective choice against AV14 from range. You have to deal with AV14 with melta in this codex.

Then you illustrate that you don't understand what we're saying or the competitive environment. When we say there is little AV14 threat we don't mean there are no AV14 units that are a threat to us we mean people don't use AV14 units.

You've also completely missed the point on the Riptide. You're suggesting I give up AA and ranged AT for the Riptide. To gain AP2 which I already have well covered. For a Pie plate? Well I'm giving up about 30 shots to take him, is 1 pie plate better horde control than 30 shots? So again as pointed out you've identified a weakness in the list that is inherent to all Tau lists and suggested a unit that doesn't cover that weakness, costs loads of points and at the expense of lots of firepower. It is the equivalent of saying my army is weak in cc and therefore I should drop my fusionsuits to get some Kroot...

You are still claiming that an IA Riptide is effective Ranged Anti AV14. I've shown pretty conclusively that that is certainly not the case whatsoever. That Riptide is only effective when he gets close. This reality is contrary to many claims you have made.

Earth Caste Pilot Array. Is Awesome. Its also expensive, to swap a 190pt unit of BSides for a 235pt Riptide. You still fail to fire the Ordinance 26% of the time because you do not get to reroll the Gets Hot roll for Ordinance or Large Blast with the Earth Caste Pilot Array. Also, the ECPA is vastly superior on an HBC Riptide IMO.

Swapping the Riptide for his BSides greatly reduces his ability to easily handle AV10, AV11, AV12, and AA. It also reduces his effectiveness against many other targets including FMCs, MCs, etc.


The simple fact is that he has 8 Fusion Blasters in his list, that is more than enough to handle two AV14 threats pretty reliably. Even if its T2 or T3. Because Frankly your Riptide Idea doesn't work until T2/T3 either as it is a very poor decision to fire the Ordinance on an LR T1 unless you can ensure collateral damage. And those multiple AV14 lists just aren't out there nowadays outside of a few niche builds.


Riptides are awesome and I personally love them. But this is a competitive and efficient build without even one that will do well against a great variety of opponents.


On side note, 3 dual MP VT Crisis Suits is an extremely poor use of points vs the Bsides. 6 T4 3+ Wounds vs 4 T42+ wounds plus 6 albative wounds for cheaper. Oh, and the 12 BS3 Shots vs the 8TLBS3 and 8BS1 shots has a lower damage output vs AA and significantly less vs ground threats. Again, another bad suggestion.





The title the OP selected was "1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?"

You around and said he needs a Riptide, you also can't back up that claim with anything substantial. This is a Viable list without Riptides, which was the goal of the thread. You lost sight of the OPs goal and then kept trolling the thread by discounting any argument you disagreed with in favor of your own biased and ultimately juvenile opinion that Riptides > Crisis Suits.

Now, if you are unable to calculate dice probability, I'll gladly explain in more detail how it is done and how such information can be used when making list decisions.

Edit: PS Shadowsun cannot be used to infiltrate units in the way you intend. I strongly suggest you reread the relevant rules in the BRB for Infiltration and the Joining of ICs to units.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Shadowsun can't infiltrate a unit. That's not how the rules work. Basically you've illustrated a total lack of understanding of what we've said, the competitive scene and the new Tau codex.

So you think Shadowsun can infiltrate with crisis teams thus shows you don't know the codex or rules. Then you think the weakness of my list is ranged AT, but by this you actually mean ranged anti-AV14. This shows a lack of understanding of the codex. The Tau codex has no efficient way to deal with AV14 at long range. Hammerheads suck against AV14 even with Longstrike piloting them. Likewise Riptides are not an effective choice against AV14 from range. You have to deal with AV14 with melta in this codex.

Then you illustrate that you don't understand what we're saying or the competitive environment. When we say there is little AV14 threat we don't mean there are no AV14 units that are a threat to us we mean people don't use AV14 units.

You've also completely missed the point on the Riptide. You're suggesting I give up AA and ranged AT for the Riptide. To gain AP2 which I already have well covered. For a Pie plate? Well I'm giving up about 30 shots to take him, is 1 pie plate better horde control than 30 shots? So again as pointed out you've identified a weakness in the list that is inherent to all Tau lists and suggested a unit that doesn't cover that weakness, costs loads of points and at the expense of lots of firepower. It is the equivalent of saying my army is weak in cc and therefore I should drop my fusionsuits to get some Kroot...

Shadowsun can most defiantly infiltrate a bodyguard squad. She can also infiltrate a riptide too...if you wanted.

BRB Pg38. Infiltrate.

"Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units....An IC without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of infiltrators during deployment. " I think the last part is what confused you. Do YOU know your own codex?

"To gain AP2 which I already have well covered. For a Pie plate? Well I'm giving up about 30 shots to take him, is 1 pie plate better horde control than 30 shots?"

AP2 which is covered by crisis suits. Nice. Are you DS them too? Or are they going to hang out and wait? The pie plate(72in''), when backed up by MLs will pie plate an entire squad with no cover saves and no armor saves for MEq. Your 30 shots are at S7 AP4 guaranteeing a majority of enemies will take armor saves, especially MEQ.

And wait, 30 shots? How? 2 broadsides = 8 S7 shots and 4 drones = 8 S7. That's 16 shots for one squad. Must be another gross exaggeration coming from you, and with no ML support half those shots are going to be BS2. But you like rolling for 5s.

You never answered my question about the leman russ. Either you're dodging or you just can't read that well. I'm starting to think its the latter.

Your list fails to be able to do anything to things out of reach of the bsides and armor that is AV14. The bsides also will have to rely on 6s to damage AV13. You're only other option is a T2 Crisis suit drop that might make it. Sounds like a fool proof plan commander.

Zagman wrote:
You are still claiming that an IA Riptide is effective Ranged Anti AV14. I've shown pretty conclusively that that is certainly not the case whatsoever. That Riptide is only effective when he gets close. This reality is contrary to many claims you have made.

Earth Caste Pilot Array. Is Awesome. Its also expensive, to swap a 190pt unit of BSides for a 235pt Riptide. You still fail to fire the Ordinance 26% of the time because you do not get to reroll the Gets Hot roll for Ordinance or Large Blast with the Earth Caste Pilot Array. Also, the ECPA is vastly superior on an HBC Riptide IMO.

Swapping the Riptide for his BSides greatly reduces his ability to easily handle AV10, AV11, AV12, and AA. It also reduces his effectiveness against many other targets including FMCs, MCs, etc.


The simple fact is that he has 8 Fusion Blasters in his list, that is more than enough to handle two AV14 threats pretty reliably. Even if its T2 or T3. Because Frankly your Riptide Idea doesn't work until T2/T3 either as it is a very poor decision to fire the Ordinance on an LR T1 unless you can ensure collateral damage. And those multiple AV14 lists just aren't out there nowadays outside of a few niche builds.


Riptides are awesome and I personally love them. But this is a competitive and efficient build without even one that will do well against a great variety of opponents.


On side note, 3 dual MP VT Crisis Suits is an extremely poor use of points vs the Bsides. 6 T4 3+ Wounds vs 4 T42+ wounds plus 6 albative wounds for cheaper. Oh, and the 12 BS3 Shots vs the 8TLBS3 and 8BS1 shots has a lower damage output vs AA and significantly less vs ground threats. Again, another bad suggestion.





The title the OP selected was "1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?"

You around and said he needs a Riptide, you also can't back up that claim with anything substantial. This is a Viable list without Riptides, which was the goal of the thread. You lost sight of the OPs goal and then kept trolling the thread by discounting any argument you disagreed with in favor of your own biased and ultimately juvenile opinion that Riptides > Crisis Suits.

Now, if you are unable to calculate dice probability, I'll gladly explain in more detail how it is done and how such information can be used when making list decisions.

Edit: PS Shadowsun cannot be used to infiltrate units in the way you intend. I strongly suggest you reread the relevant rules in the BRB for Infiltration and the Joining of ICs to units.

As you pointed out the 55.5% chance to pull off the gets hot and nova but with ECPA, would increase it much more. Triptides (with one IA) are also used as standard AT options in actual tournaments. You haven't proved a thing except for the fact that a riptide with an ECPA would be very valuable.

"Earth Caste Pilot Array. Is Awesome. Its also expensive, to swap a 190pt unit of BSides for a 235pt Riptide. You still fail to fire the Ordinance 26% of the time because you do not get to reroll the Gets Hot roll for Ordinance or Large Blast with the Earth Caste Pilot Array. Also, the ECPA is vastly superior on an HBC Riptide IMO. "

190 for the bsides, 210 for the riptide with just the ECPA. What are the extra 25 points for? So, you pass with 73% of the time? That's not too bad. Actually, you can reroll the gets hot roll for ordnance, reread the rules. And it's Ordnance not ordinance. The latter is a piece of legislation enacted by a municipal authority.

"The simple fact is that he has 8 Fusion Blasters in his list, that is more than enough to handle two AV14 threats pretty reliably. Even if its T2 or T3. Because Frankly your Riptide Idea doesn't work until T2/T3 either as it is a very poor decision to fire the Ordinance on an LR T1 unless you can ensure collateral damage. And those multiple AV14 lists just aren't out there nowadays outside of a few niche builds."

Why is it a shot at AV14 T1 a folly? You would rather that metal box get to your front line? And never said anything about multiple AV14 lists, once again putting words into my mouth. Just pointing out that someone with AV14 will just have free range.

"On side note, 3 dual MP VT Crisis Suits is an extremely poor use of points vs the Bsides. 6 T4 3+ Wounds vs 4 T42+ wounds plus 6 albative wounds for cheaper. Oh, and the 12 BS3 Shots vs the 8TLBS3 and 8BS1 shots has a lower damage output vs AA and significantly less vs ground threats. Again, another bad suggestion."

Listen to yourself. You didn't read what i said. That was in response to the OPs comment about how if he were to take 3 riptides all of his crisis suits would need MP on them to deal with AA. 3 Crisis suits with MP and VT is a sound AA response.

"6 T4 3+ Wounds vs 4 T42+ wounds plus 6 albative wounds for cheaper. "

LOL. Really? Really? The crisis suits can JSJ meaning they can get out of LOS. Your bsides are going to be just sitting there with a thumb up their ass and guess what, when they get pie plated by...idk, maybe a riptide with an IA and ML to strip cover, they'll all die and all those wounds wont even matter.

8TLBS1 shots or 12 BS3 shots against Air. Wut. This all, of course was in response to OPs claim that he needs MP on all his crisis suits to deal with AA, which...you did read right?

"You around and said he needs a Riptide, you also can't back up that claim with anything substantial."

Actually, time and time again i pointed out that fact he has no AV14 answer and nothing to answer models that are out of his range of the bsides (leman russ). The only thing that he has to counter that is a T2/T3 crisis suit that MIGHT come in and might do the job maybe. That's too many maybes for me. I just suggested that a riptide or HH (HH is an abrivation for Hammerhead btw) might help out his lacking long range AT problems. But hey, you're willing to let a squad of leman russ fire at you without an answer, that's fine too bro.

"PS Shadowsun cannot be used to infiltrate units in the way you intend. I strongly suggest you reread the relevant rules in the BRB for Infiltration and the Joining of ICs to units."

Incorrect. Pg 38 and pg 39 BRB

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Shadowsun can't infiltrate a unit. That's not how the rules work. Basically you've illustrated a total lack of understanding of what we've said, the competitive scene and the new Tau codex.

So you think Shadowsun can infiltrate with crisis teams thus shows you don't know the codex or rules. Then you think the weakness of my list is ranged AT, but by this you actually mean ranged anti-AV14. This shows a lack of understanding of the codex. The Tau codex has no efficient way to deal with AV14 at long range. Hammerheads suck against AV14 even with Longstrike piloting them. Likewise Riptides are not an effective choice against AV14 from range. You have to deal with AV14 with melta in this codex.

Then you illustrate that you don't understand what we're saying or the competitive environment. When we say there is little AV14 threat we don't mean there are no AV14 units that are a threat to us we mean people don't use AV14 units.

You've also completely missed the point on the Riptide. You're suggesting I give up AA and ranged AT for the Riptide. To gain AP2 which I already have well covered. For a Pie plate? Well I'm giving up about 30 shots to take him, is 1 pie plate better horde control than 30 shots? So again as pointed out you've identified a weakness in the list that is inherent to all Tau lists and suggested a unit that doesn't cover that weakness, costs loads of points and at the expense of lots of firepower. It is the equivalent of saying my army is weak in cc and therefore I should drop my fusionsuits to get some Kroot...

Shadowsun can most defiantly infiltrate a bodyguard squad. She can also infiltrate a riptide too...if you wanted.

BRB Pg38. Infiltrate.

"Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units....An IC without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of infiltrators during deployment. " I think the last part is what confused you. Do YOU know your own codex?

"To gain AP2 which I already have well covered. For a Pie plate? Well I'm giving up about 30 shots to take him, is 1 pie plate better horde control than 30 shots?"

AP2 which is covered by crisis suits. Nice. Are you DS them too? Or are they going to hang out and wait? The pie plate, when backed up by MLs will pie plate an entire squad with no cover saves and no armor saves for MEq. Your 30 shots are at S7 AP4 guaranteeing a majority of enemies will take armor saves, especially MEQ.

And wait, 30 shots? How? 2 broadsides = 8 S7 shots and 4 drones = 8 S7. That's 16 shots for one squad. Must be another gross exaggeration coming from you.

You never answered my question about the leman russ. Either you're dodging or you just can't read that well. I'm starting to think its the latter.

Your list fails to be able to do anything to things out of reach of the bsides and armor that is AV14. The bsides also will have to rely on 6s to damage AV13. You're only other option is a T2 Crisis suit drop that might make it. Sounds like a fool proof plan commander.

Actually, nothing gives you permission to have your IC Join the squad before the Bodyguards are forced to deploy. Therefore Shadowsun gets deployed after them. He can only Infiltrate with a unit that already has the Infiltrate special rule. ICs join squad by being deployed in coherency with them. How are you holding your Bodyguards back from being deployed when they are required to? Pg 39, 2nd Paragraph if you are interested. Now, read the rules for Infiltrate, particularly when Infiltrators deploy and you will see exactly why do are breaking the rules of the game.


6's vs AV13 isn't difficult very do. A unit of his Broadsides strips ~1.5HP from AV13 per turn, 2/turn with Markerlight Support and considering he averages over 8 Marker Light hits/turn that isn't difficult. So with a bit of Marker Light support he can drop two AV13 targets per turn.

Multiple Lemon Russes, especially Squadrons are easy prey for Fusion Blasters, and as stated he has 8. That is far better than many armies at that point level can bring to the table. And how exactly is the Riptide handling the Multiple Russes? He has only double, so 7.2% chance of destroying a Russ thanks to the AV13 Side armor, not very good. And even with the Earth Caste Pilot Array his odds get only to ~10%. That brings up another point of mine, the Riptide is not an AV13 answer at range either. The answer to multiple Russes is still going to be dropping 8 Fusion Blasters on them. Squadrons of Russes die pretty quickly.

Edit: I thought he had Velocity Trackers on his Broadsides, that means yes the Riptide can be cheaper.



And I've clearly demonstrated that the Riptide is not an AV14 answer.

As to the Hammerhead... he has an 11% chance of destroying AV14 at range, 13% with Marker Light Support... and Longstrike, the man himself, has a 23% chance of blowing up one of those AV14 targets. So, where is your AV14 solution here? I'm not seeing it. The DSing Fusion Blasters are still the best answer in the tau book for AV14. Otherwise you would need Longstrike and another source of Fusion Blasters, most usually on a Riptide.

I am still waiting for your "good" Anti AV14 solution.

Ironically I would like to offer your own advice back to you (from my quintuple riptides list). More anti air!!

in this list your EWO broadsides are your primary antiair. With each squad averaging a 0.42 chance of a pen and 0.42 chance of a glance on a helldrake after invulns. This means that to reliably kill one helldrake you need to dedicate all your long ranged anti armour against a single flier with a total of a 2.46 hull points damage plus chances for pens.

the fact that your crisis suits don't have missilepods/velocity trackers exacerbates this problem as well as the fact that braodsides are very vulnerable to vendettas whereas crisis are vulnerable to helldrakes..

On another note, what are your thoughts on piranhas? you have a spare fast attack slot open and unusually for tau lack s5 anti infantry fire. throw in a unit of 5, detatch the gun drones, put them with a commander with 2 marker drones and a drone controller, you now have a very mobile very accurate unit of JSJ drones (at the cost of giving one of your units of marker drones the dronecontroller commander). you are then left with five 16pt piranhas which can be upgraded as a fusion threat. boost them in your enemy's face first turn and you have mobile difficult terrain. alternatively just abuse the fast 10 AV10 hull points you get for 80 points....
maybe drop a few crisis to ease points for that. obviously thats just to taste but its where i would go with the list.

p39 in BRB, for independant characters
"an IC can start a game in a unit ... must tell your opponent who is with who" (so the whole is one unit)

p38: infiltrate
"an unit who has at least one figure" so as a unit joined by an IC is a single unit, this rule apply

p40: outflank
"an unit who has at least one figure", same wording here, but you must declare in the deployment which unit will go outflanking.

So yes, Shadowsun give outflanking and infiltrate to any unit she joined.

http://advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20010

It's not just me saying these things. I know how you don't want to trust me on things and all that.

"6's vs AV13 isn't difficult very do. A unit of his Broadsides strips ~1.5HP from AV13 per turn, 2/turn with Markerlight Support and considering he averages over 8 Marker Light hits/turn that isn't difficult. So with a bit of Marker Light support he can drop two AV13 targets per turn. "

But you're relying on 6's. It'll take you one turn for an entire unit of bsides to strip AV13 one and a half maybe. So if you're going against eldar or necron, that'll be a problem. Or if you're going against multiple ground targets AND a flier that will be a problem. And if they have an AV14 unit on the field, well you'll just ignore that until T2.

"Multiple Lemon Russes, especially Squadrons are easy prey for Fusion Blasters, and as stated he has 8"

Easy prey on T2 maybe, and what if he decides to split up the tanks? You have two squads of two on either side and you have to rely on both squads of FB suits to drop in to fight them, and both of them hopefully doing damage to stop them. If they fail or mishap you no longer have a response to the Leman Russes for the rest of the game.

As for the riptide? With an EPCA he has around a 75%(probably more because you can reroll the gets hot and that wasn't factored) chance to start it, a high chance of hitting with proper ML support and a ~50% to pen AV14 on T1. You can also probably deploy him so he'll hit the AV13 side armor on a Leman Russ. OR take a HH.

"I am still waiting for your "good" Anti AV14 solution."

I already told you. You have a back up and the backup could be a riptide (or HH) who not only can deal with AV14 (if it rears its ugly head right? you claim they don't happen often) and pie plate MEq extremely well.. Have you been reading?

I am tired of telling you the same things over and over again. You look at the evidence provided, then respond with your own conclusions and made up math. This has happen multiple times and frankly I'm tired of dealing with you. FlingitNow is a bright guy who I've seen around the forums and I have respect for the advice he has given and the understanding of the game he has. You do not meet any of those criteria, you deny things that are fairly obvious and keep offering poor solutuions to a theoretical problem and each of your solutions costs over 10% of his force and does not synergize well.

RAW Shadowsun can not infiltrate a unit as Shadowsun cannot join said unit unless deployed in coherency. Shadowsun is not allowed to join them prior to being deployed in coherency. The only exclusion is if both are held in reserves.

It may not be how many people play it, but it is the RAW. We are told how ICs join units, to ignore this is against RAW. May not be RAI, but it is RAW.

Earth Caste Pilot Array does not allow you to reroll the Gets Hot roll for the IA, because it is not a to hit roll. The HBC ECPA gets to reroll its gets hot because they are to hit rolls of 1. Please read the relevant rules before spouting nonsense.

Your theory craft and obtuse refusal to open your mind has beaten me. I obviously can't convince you my fantastical theories and math have merit, so I will stop trying. FlingitNow understands, so I am wasting my time.

 Ollivander wrote:
Ironically I would like to offer your own advice back to you (from my quintuple riptides list). More anti air!!

in this list your EWO broadsides are your primary antiair. With each squad averaging a 0.42 chance of a pen and 0.42 chance of a glance on a helldrake after invulns. This means that to reliably kill one helldrake you need to dedicate all your long ranged anti armour against a single flier with a total of a 2.46 hull points damage plus chances for pens.

the fact that your crisis suits don't have missilepods/velocity trackers exacerbates this problem as well as the fact that braodsides are very vulnerable to vendettas whereas crisis are vulnerable to helldrakes..

On another note, what are your thoughts on piranhas? you have a spare fast attack slot open and unusually for tau lack s5 anti infantry fire. throw in a unit of 5, detatch the gun drones, put them with a commander with 2 marker drones and a drone controller, you now have a very mobile very accurate unit of JSJ drones (at the cost of giving one of your units of marker drones the dronecontroller commander). you are then left with five 16pt piranhas which can be upgraded as a fusion threat. boost them in your enemy's face first turn and you have mobile difficult terrain. alternatively just abuse the fast 10 AV10 hull points you get for 80 points....
maybe drop a few crisis to ease points for that. obviously thats just to taste but its where i would go with the list.

I know I dont have loads of AA particularly against Helldrakes. But I should kill a drake/detta most turns on interceptor and with MLs the commanders and fusionsuits should be able to down another in my turn. So I don't think it is a major weakness. Quad drakes will cause me serious issues but double shouldn't and triple I would do alright against only having real issues if all arrive on the same turn.

If commanders could take 5 systems they would each have VTs but I've run a VT commander with drones and it is annoying having him have to shoot the same thing as the drones...

Piranhas are awesome. Great for their points, but I have no AV in the list and this is deliberate to deny the enemies Guess/ Haywire and autocannons fire good targets. Plus I can't drop troops in this list they are fragile enough as is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Your theory craft and obtuse refusal to open your mind has beaten me. I obviously can't convince you my fantastical theories and math have merit, so I will stop trying. FlingitNow understands, so I am wasting my time.

QTF always the issue with dakka is for every person giving good advice there's often 2-3 giving bad advice that makes the original list worse. I've been lucky on this thread to only have 1 though he has been as loud as two or three normal people...

Every one else (yourself included) has been given well thought out advice that isn't based on breaking rules and using units for things they suck at to solve non-existant problems...

"You look at the evidence provided, then respond with your own conclusions and made up math. "

Zagman, the only math that i have used is the math you provided. And actually, i've very happy that you took the time to do all the calculations. Thank you.

"RAW Shadowsun can not infiltrate a unit as Shadowsun cannot join said unit unless deployed in coherency. Shadowsun is not allowed to join them prior to being deployed in coherency. The only exclusion is if both are held in reserves. "

The entire internet disagrees with you.

http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/07/tau-codex-review-commander-shadowsun/

Look, another source that points out her ability to infiltrate a unit.

"Earth Caste Pilot Array does not allow you to reroll the Gets Hot roll for the IA, because it is not a to hit roll."

Pg 37 BRB "Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a D6 for each shot immediately before firing. On a 2+ the shot is resolved as normal."

ECPA "..Model re-rolls all rolls of 1 to hit in the shooting phase, and the nova charge..."

What is so confusing about this for you? If i shot a pistol and im rolling to hit, i use a D6. Since a blast weapon uses scatter dice (2D6), you have to roll a D6 to see if it gets hot. It's EXACTLY the same thing, and everyone here will agree with me on that.

"Your theory craft and obtuse refusal to open your mind has beaten me. I obviously can't convince you my fantastical theories and math have merit, so I will stop trying. FlingitNow understands, so I am wasting my time."

Me being obtuse? You refuse to acknowledge AV14 threats, and anything that this army can not reach. You have NO ANSWER to leman russes at ALL until MAYBE turn T2 or T3 and then, it's not even really an answer. This army has weaknesses as i have already said. And where the hell did you get this whole math idea? I never once denied your math, nor did i ever supply my own.

Honestly, i'm wasting my time. You don't even know the rules to your own army (if you even play it at all). Look, i understand you're trying to save face or something, i get it. I would suggest that you just take a deep breath, and calm down. It's just a discussion board, and the goal is to help the OP make a better list.

If you want to just get grumpy at a simple discussion, you should probably try to find another hobby. But, if you are set on playing warhammer 40k, especially Tau, i would highly suggest doing another read over all the rules and units, as well as their USR so you don't look silly again.

The entire internet disagrees with you.

http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/07/tau-codex-review-commander-shadowsun/

Look, another source that points out her ability to infiltrate a unit.

Check YMDC it will have numerous threads that detail how the rules work. Or you know you could just read the rules and work it out for yourself. The relevant parts are how to join Shadowsun to a unit during deployment. They can't have infiltrate until she joins them and she can't join them until you are deploying infiltrators or putting them in reserve.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
"You look at the evidence provided, then respond with your own conclusions and made up math. "

Zagman, the only math that i have used is the math you provided. And actually, i've very happy that you took the time to do all the calculations. Thank you.

"RAW Shadowsun can not infiltrate a unit as Shadowsun cannot join said unit unless deployed in coherency. Shadowsun is not allowed to join them prior to being deployed in coherency. The only exclusion is if both are held in reserves. "

The entire internet disagrees with you.

http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/07/tau-codex-review-commander-shadowsun/

Look, another source that points out her ability to infiltrate a unit.

"Earth Caste Pilot Array does not allow you to reroll the Gets Hot roll for the IA, because it is not a to hit roll."

Pg 37 BRB "Weapons that do not roll To Hit (such as Blast weapons) must roll a D6 for each shot immediately before firing. On a 2+ the shot is resolved as normal."

ECPA "..Model re-rolls all rolls of 1 to hit in the shooting phase, and the nova charge..."

What is so confusing about this for you? If i shot a pistol and im rolling to hit, i use a D6. Since a blast weapon uses scatter dice (2D6), you have to roll a D6 to see if it gets hot. It's EXACTLY the same thing, and everyone here will agree with me on that.

"Your theory craft and obtuse refusal to open your mind has beaten me. I obviously can't convince you my fantastical theories and math have merit, so I will stop trying. FlingitNow understands, so I am wasting my time."

Me being obtuse? You refuse to acknowledge AV14 threats, and anything that this army can not reach. You have NO ANSWER to leman russes at ALL until MAYBE turn T2 or T3 and then, it's not even really an answer. This army has weaknesses as i have already said. And where the hell did you get this whole math idea? I never once denied your math, nor did i ever supply my own.

Honestly, i'm wasting my time. You don't even know the rules to your own army (if you even play it at all). Look, i understand you're trying to save face or something, i get it. I would suggest that you just take a deep breath, and calm down. It's just a discussion board, and the goal is to help the OP make a better list.

If you want to just get grumpy at a simple discussion, you should probably try to find another hobby. But, if you are set on playing warhammer 40k, especially Tau, i would highly suggest doing another read over all the rules and units, as well as their USR so you don't look silly again.

You have not displayed any understanding of the math unfortunately. None of your suggestions are effective T1 or even T2 anti AV14. In face the only effective Anti AV T2 suggestion is the OP's.

Ok, 3++ is not a good source for rules queries. Read the deployment rules, they are very clear about how ICs join a unit. ICs join by being deployed within 2" or by being held in reserve together. Infiltrate is not reserves therefore the Bodyguards have to be deployed on the table, then during Infiltrator's deployment Shadowsun joins them. That is absolutely how it has to be, there are no exclusions provided in either the codex or BRB. Unless there is an FAQ for Shadowsun or an errata for ICs in general this is how it works.

Gets Hot, pg 37. No where is the Gets Hot roll for a blast weapon a to hit roll. ECPA only allows you to reroll 1s to hit, not reroll 1s during the shooting phase. Without an FAQ, this is how it works.

AV14 can be a threat, no where have I denied this. It is a threat that Fusion Blasters are an answer to. Nowhere did you give a T1 solution to AV14, only other expensive and less reliable solutions.

I am quite calm, and I do play this army. I went 4-0 in a 1k tournament with the Farsight Enclave yesterday. One of the lists I faced was a nasty quintuple Venoms with blaster warriors and triple Ravagers. One was a lukewarm BA list. One was a nasty double GUO double Soulfgrinder Nurgle list. One was a balanced DA list with Bikes, Knights, Dual LC Mortis.

Dead Horse(Beat).

 FlingitNow wrote:

The entire internet disagrees with you.

http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/07/tau-codex-review-commander-shadowsun/

Look, another source that points out her ability to infiltrate a unit.

Check YMDC it will have numerous threads that detail how the rules work. Or you know you could just read the rules and work it out for yourself. The relevant parts are how to join Shadowsun to a unit during deployment. They can't have infiltrate until she joins them and she can't join them until you are deploying infiltrators or putting them in reserve.

Page 92 Kayvaan Shrike, See, But Remain Unseen.
Replace this entry with the following:

“See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit
chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before
deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate specialrule).

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3180059a_Space_Marines_v1.3_APRIL13.pdf

According to you, Shrike should not be able to infiltrate, even though GW is saying he can. Shrike isn't a "special case" either and i'll explain why.

When looking at other codexes, it's always worth remembering the edition they were written in. In 5th edition, the entire unit had to have infiltrate to benefit from it, whereas you only need one model with this rule. You also couldn't infiltrate within a transport in 5th, but you can in 6th.

Another thing i would like to point out is that if a IC can not confer USR to it's unit, before it's deployed, then the Warlord Personal Trait "Master of Manoeuvre" on pg 111 of the BRB is 100% useless and would NEVER be allowed.

So, based on all of that, adding shadowsun to a unit confers infiltrate. You are wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"You have not displayed any understanding of the math unfortunately. None of your suggestions are effective T1 or even T2 anti AV14. In face the only effective Anti AV T2 suggestion is the OP's. "

At this point it seems you are just typing words without actually reading responses.

"Ok, 3++ is not a good source for rules queries"

So, not only is 3++ a bad source for rule discussions, i bet AAT, 1D4chan and even this very website are all bad examples of this rule. They all agree with me on infiltrate though. Huh, that's funny.

"Gets Hot, pg 37. No where is the Gets Hot roll for a blast weapon a to hit roll. ECPA only allows you to reroll 1s to hit, not reroll 1s during the shooting phase."

The scatter dice is NOT a traditional "to hit" set up like normal shooting is(2D6). Thus, the initial Gets Hot! roll for the blast weapon will allow the re-roll with the ECPA. Besides, read the last sentence of the rule bro. No, i'll do that for you, since you lack the skill.

Gets Hot and Re-rolls - ..."it may also re-roll Gets Hot results of a 1 for weapons that do not roll To hit."

You're a fething idiot.

" Nowhere did you give a T1 solution to AV14,"

Riptide or HH tank.

" only other expensive and less reliable solutions."

That's like, your opinion man. Don't say i didn't give you a solution because i did. And not reliable? Oh, like a T2 DS roll is reliable? And where's your backup option if that fails? You do not have one. So you will be unable to answer to the AV14, or the leman russes for the rest of the game. Brilliant.

"I am quite calm, and I do play this army. I went 4-0 in a 1k tournament with the Farsight Enclave yesterday."

And i'm the king of England. Look guy, you don't even know what you're talking about. I'm having an army list discussion (and rule discussion) with someone completely ignorant with rules as well as how they could be interpreted in the game.

I guess i'm the fool in this discussion.

An FAQ for a 5th edition special character that will be obsolete in one month is not evidence of how you Infiltrate Shadowsun. The BRB is. The RAW is clear, if GW wants it played your way they will Errata and FAQ it. They have not. Many believe RAI is otherwise and play it that way, doesn't change the RAW.

As to the Earth Caste, my memory was indeed faulty. I did indeed miss the last line and the special inclusion, an ECPA would indeed allow the reroll. Thank you for quoting the appropriate line.

The insult was not necessary, did you need to stoop to such insults?

You believe the IA Riptide and a Hammerhead are effective Anti AV14 on turn 1? The minuscule chance of destruction for the Riptide is evidence of that? Do you believe Glancing a LR to death with Long Fangs is effective as well? About the same odds if they have a Wolfguard with Cyclone. Hammerhead is indeed more effective than the Riptide, actually more effective than Multiple Riptides? Does every list need one Hammerhead? Or Longstrike? A hammerhead has an 11% chance to blow up AV14, so you can expect to kill one every two games, IMO that is not effective. You believe it is. This is where we differ.


Your Majesty. Another insult is unbecoming. Every word was the truth. Would you like my opponents names? My Battle Point totals? 7, 6, 7, 9, I took 2nd. The BAO format scoring sheet? Pictures of my models? Of the little award sitting on my gaming stuff?

P.S. I like how you edited out Queen, King of England out, it is much more manly and helps boost your ego.

"An FAQ for a 5th edition special character that will be obsolete in one month is not evidence of how you Infiltrate Shadowsun. "

Yes it is. No mention of the Warlord Trait i brought up either. Awesome.

"As to the Earth Caste, my memory was indeed faulty. I did indeed miss the last line and the special inclusion, an ECPA would indeed allow the reroll. Thank you for quoting the appropriate line. "

You just wanted to disagree i think, because how could i possibly be right? Once you start to hate something everything they do and say makes you angry.

"The insult was not necessary, did you need to stoop to such insults?"

LOL. Don't play the victim here pal. You're the one that's getting all up on my case because you don't know how the rules work. In fact, you still are with shadowsun.

"You believe the IA Riptide and a Hammerhead are effective Anti AV14 on turn 1?"

The same reason why you think the FB suits is an effective Anti AV14, or AT in general. If AV14 is on the board, the FBsuits are not going to stop it from getting to your front line and dropping off troops. It'll be too late in most games.

My point has always been since the very start that you have no backup and you are relying too much on a DS unit for long range targets that you can not reach with broadsides, and AV14.

"P.S. I like how you edited out Queen, King of England out, it is much more manly and helps boost your ego."

King of England sounded like it would fit better. I didn't want to call you a girl, because that would be an insult to women.

I normally wouldn't step in to these sorts of arguments but this thread is SO far off from where it started I can't help but say something.

@AnonAmbientLight: We get it. You have your argument pretty well set. I suggest that if it is such a big issues that you have to continue to hijack this thread that you instead make a new post in the rules section. That way we can argue with out messing around with a guy's list thread. You are doing no good here.

@Everyone else: Lets just drop it for now. Anon isn't going anywhere and is just picking a fight because he can. Lets move this argument to a new place and get back to the original topic. Anon isn't going to change his mind any and I think he is just looking to troll at this point.

@ the OP: I like the second version of your list quite a bit. I have been wracking my brain trying to come up with a good Enclave build and it really never occurred to me to leave the Riptides at home. I tend to expect a lot out of my RTs but they eat up so many points that I often wonder if they are worth it. I am eager to build a few more suits and give a version of your list a shot in the near future. Can you talk a little bit more about the tactics you might employ with your build?

Master of Manoeuvre works for the same reason that Shadowsun can outflank with a unit. Please read what's been read. Shrike's ability didn't work in RAW in 5th nor does it in 6th.However with shrike the RAI is clear. With Shadowsun there is no clear RAI so with out an FAQ no infiltrating without the unit already containing a model with infiltrate.

We have proven that a RT or HH is not effective anti AV14. You are either not reading what we've said or are too dumb to comprehend or you are just trolling. So at this point I'm going to suggest that Zagman stops replying to you because there is no point engaging in discussion with you.

For your future AnonAmbientLight I would advise against giving people list advice until either you start reading replies or learn the game well enough to understand them. I would try reading the rules and asking some questions on YMDC so you can learn how they work. Unless you're intentionally trolling, in which case I just feel sorry for you. I hope this helps.

i fought a list very much like this one about a week ago. however all suits had plasma and he had 2 riptides. the list did amazing with all plasma suits. that plasma hurts like hell.

Resv:

Yeah for me the Riptides don't add any killing power that the Crisis suits don't already bring. Where as the Broadsides bring the AA. You can't afford both and still have enough troops (in an Enclave list you need to max out troops), so for me dropping the Riptides seemed the best solution.

With this list you need to use cover and mobility to keep the Crisis suits alive and shooting. What deep strikes and what starts on the board will be dependant on your opponent and terrain.

FlingItNow, you are right, I'm letting myself get trolled.

I've found running a few small one suit plus two drone squads to be effective troops. Ultra cheap scoring unit that can offer some support or firepower. At 1k I didn't have a dedicated Marker squad, so I had three 1 suit squads, TL Missile Pod with two marker drones in each. It proved to work well although it only averages 2 marker hits per turn. 67pts for a 4 wound T4 highly mobile scoring units that Jump Shoot Jumps around LOS blocking terrain whenever possible and can GtG in iArea Terrain when needed.

That is how I am finding points for Riptides, although Troops are far less durable they are at least as numerous.

Yeah that's a cool unit and I'm not saying Riptides are bad. Just you have to have a build that utilises them. I don't think this one does. To be honest Enclave wise you're almost forced to take 3 if any. You'll want the Skyfiring one with HBC and ECP. And Iontides work best in pairs. Then you want MLs to support them... Can be a powerhouse build but you have to build for them.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yeah that's a cool unit and I'm not saying Riptides are bad. Just you have to have a build that utilises them. I don't think this one does. To be honest Enclave wise you're almost forced to take 3 if any. You'll want the Skyfiring one with HBC and ECP. And Iontides work best in pairs. Then you want MLs to support them... Can be a powerhouse build but you have to build for them.

I completely agree. I actually ran two at 1k. One VT EWO IonTide and one ECPA HBC with VT and EWO. Unfortunately I didn't face a single flyer to my shock. There was one double Flyer build floating around by my buddy obliterated him with his eldar a couple of tables below me. My main plan for the Enclave is to use them as an ally by bringing in two Riptides in addition to building a 2k list with them I like. O'Vesa and an HBC VT StimInjector(ECPA, if they eventually FAQ the Eight exclusion). I plan on joining O'Vesa to a unit of Wraithguard. I'll be picking up a third Riptide for higher points of Pure Enclave or if I decide to run Farsight wit Allied Eldar instead.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Master of Manoeuvre works for the same reason that Shadowsun can outflank with a unit. Please read what's been read. Shrike's ability didn't work in RAW in 5th nor does it in 6th.However with shrike the RAI is clear. With Shadowsun there is no clear RAI so with out an FAQ no infiltrating without the unit already containing a model with infiltrate.

We have proven that a RT or HH is not effective anti AV14. You are either not reading what we've said or are too dumb to comprehend or you are just trolling. So at this point I'm going to suggest that Zagman stops replying to you because there is no point engaging in discussion with you.

For your future AnonAmbientLight I would advise against giving people list advice until either you start reading replies or learn the game well enough to understand them. I would try reading the rules and asking some questions on YMDC so you can learn how they work. Unless you're intentionally trolling, in which case I just feel sorry for you. I hope this helps.

You roll for warlord traits, then you deploy your army. In order for Master of Manoeuvre to work, you would have to be able to put your IC with the unit before you do anything.
You're arguing that Shadowsun can not infiltrate because she cannot join the unit before it's deployed, or hold it back. If that's the case, then you can't do that with Master of Maneuver either.

"We have proven that a RT or HH is not effective anti AV14. You are either not reading what we've said or are too dumb to comprehend or you are just trolling. So at this point I'm going to suggest that Zagman stops replying to you because there is no point engaging in discussion with you. "

First of all, Zag was ignorant on a plethora of rules. For example, he didn't realize that the ECPA could allow rerolls on the Gets Hot rule. So there was a small detour as i had to find rules for him so he'd stop mocking me. Ironic that he was telling me to read the rules and learn the codex, don't you think?

He said earlier that the RT with an ECPA would work 75% of the time, not including the reroll on the Get's Hot rule. I would expect the nova charge on the IA profile would succeed at a much higher rate, but i do not know the math to that. Keep in mind, the ENTIRE argument has been "Riptide no good because nova and gets hot fails". I've proven, thanks to Zag, that the rate should be ~80% or more.

Then using another forum who had math readily available on the Longstrike (Longstrike and Nova IA are about the same) to pen chance, I surmised that the RT with a nova pen chance on AV14 to be around 45%. With AP 2 on the strike, that gives you a +1 on the damage table which means at the very least, the crew is only firing snap shots their next turn. This is all T1. So no, you actually haven't proved anything. In fact...

I honestly think, at this point, you guys are trolling me. Both you and Zag have failed to address any of my points, and blatantly skipping some points for some reason. Sometimes it doesn't even look like you are reading my posts, and if you are reading them, you're not reading them properly. (Zag and the Gets Hot rule)

Neither of you have talked about the Leman Russ problem. (3rd or 4th time im bringing that up). Neither of you want to take a HH or a Riptide because you want it to be a pure suit list, even though relying on just FB DS suits is just as risky as a Nova charge attempt (both need a 3+ to succeed) In fact, the army you chose to use (farsight enclave) makes the nova charge much easier to set off with the ECPA.

The entire internet disagrees with your assessment of shadowsun's infiltrate abilities, and i've given you multiple sites that discuss that very rule. Their conclusion is that shadowsun may infiltrate the units. The examples given are Shrike and Master of Maneuver.

Since you didn't want to use one of the best equipment and models in the army you chose(farsight enclave), i made you an army list that would be far better (tau empire), but it's "illegal" because you do not understand the rules.

Bottom line, you and your friend have devolved this thread because you really seem to hate the riptide, or advice you disagree with. Zag provided us math that shows that the Riptide with a ECPA has a better chance of using it's nova profile than a T2 DSing unit. On top of all of this, i have been suggesting the riptide or HH as back up to the FB suits, not a replacement. You really ought to read posts.

So in closing, you guys are terrible commanders, terrible forum posters, and should really really really read the rules to your own army, as well as give the BRB one more look through.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Resv wrote:


@AnonAmbientLight: We get it. You have your argument pretty well set. I suggest that if it is such a big issues that you have to continue to hijack this thread that you instead make a new post in the rules section. That way we can argue with out messing around with a guy's list thread. You are doing no good here.

@Everyone else: Lets just drop it for now. Anon isn't going anywhere and is just picking a fight because he can. Lets move this argument to a new place and get back to the original topic. Anon isn't going to change his mind any and I think he is just looking to troll at this point.

If you read the thread, you'd see i offered solutions and the OP as well as Zag tried to argue with me, saying i was wrong, or they wouldn't work. Case in point, the ENTIRE ECPA discussion and to a lesser extent the Gets Hot rule. I had to literally highlight the part of the rule he failed to read (multiple times) to get him to stop mocking me about how i don't know the rules.

Yea, because discussing riptides in a thread asking if a no riptide list is viable is side tracking it. The only reason this thread got derailed because the OP and Zag do not know the rules to the game. They also feel that AV14 is never a threat and think it's fine to let them run around without an answer to them. They also feel that models such as the Leman Russ should be allowed to fire freely up until T2 at least because they don't want a RT or a HH. That is, of course, if the FB suits actually come in. As i pointed out, a ECPA RT has a better chance of pulling off a Nova IA than a suit has coming in DS. lol...

*DEEP BREATH*

Holy gak, if this is the kind of stupidity i have to deal with on the Army List forum, why the feth would i want to go to YMDC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zagman wrote:
FlingItNow, you are right, I'm letting myself get trolled.

Puuuulease. You're apparently the type of donkey-cave that yells at someone for being wrong and telling them to read the rules. Then when you're shown to be completely wrong on the topic you just berated the person about, and they call you an idiot, you cry like a little bitch.

Please no one respond to him, it's a trap!

OK I'll try this 1 last time:

Master of Manoeuvre works because as pointed out you can join a unit during deployment in 2 ways. Either by deploying within unit coherency with that unit or joining them in reserve. The first part makes it impossible to join an infiltrating character to a unit until it is too late for that unit to infiltrate. The later allows him to join that unit when you declare reserves and thus allows you to outflank them via MoM. Get it now? Likewise 1 site is not the entire internet any good rules forum will have the same argument. I've never been to a tournament that has allowed an infiltrating character to give infiltrate to a unit.

The entire argument for RT vs AV14 was not that it only fires 55% of the time. Which is still true when you take into account you suggest I drop a squad of Broadsides (190 points) to pay for the Riptide. You also claim my Broadsides have too much to do with AA and AT duties and your solution is to drop some.

So the main argument against a Riptide is that it has a ~5% chance to kill AV14, so even if the Nova works every time you're still looking at about an 9% chance. A Longstrike Railhead is also about 190 points which has under a 25% chance to kill AV14 which would be a significant improvement on your Riptide idea but still not a good solution to AV14. Particularly how much anti AV10-13 I would be giving up and how much AA I would be giving up. You are talking about chances to pen which isn't generally how you kill vehicles reliably in 6th Ed. HPs and multiple shots are the way to end vehicles now, volume fire is important not the power of an individual shot. Seriously play some games and this will start to become clear to you.

As for the "Leman Russ problem" we have talked about it. They simply aren't seen on the competitive scene as guard players spam Vendettas, Chimera Vets and Artillery. How would I deal with 1 Russ? Well I'd ignore it until a Crisis team deep struck in and killed it. Even the Plasma teams are near guaranteed to kill it from behind. If they have multiple? Then I'm likely to be able to get side armour shots with broadsides and again will whittle them down in a turn maybe two with the Crisis teams coming in and finishing off stragglers.

Its not that I don't want to use the Riptide or ECPA it is just that they don't fit into this list without a total rewrite. Which would be an entirely different list. I currently run 2 Riptides in my Tau army.

You then posted a Tau list that was fundamentally different and worse in many ways and reliant on a rules mistake you have made. A mistake which has been pointed out to you. Which you refuse to accept because 3++ said some stuff without any actual rules support...

We know you have been suggesting the RT as back up to the fusion suits. But the job you are suggesting it does is not one it can do. Whilst I am also losing a load of AT and AA to pay for plus a load of other stuff (to pay for the ECPA which you still haven't stated what). Whilst claiming that my Broadsides will struggle to handle all the AA & AT. Which just beggars belief. Did that even make sense when you thought it up?!?!??

As for the gets hot rule that is highly debatable. You don't have a flat reroll to hit you have a conditional reroll to hit. If you start letting conditions slide then literally every model in the game gets to reroll gets hot on blasts all the time. That is a can of worms you can go to YMDC to learn more about.

We have tried explaining to you how the game works and how the rules work. But you don't listen or understand. Heck your posts here illustrate that repeatedly with comments like "the ENTIRE argument has been "Riptide no good because nova and gets hot fails"" and the classic "So you're going to rely on 5's and 6's to take out AV12 and AV13" which illustrates you don't know Broadsides deal with AV12 better than just about anything and are very strong against AV13 too...

This is all illustrative of the fact that you don't know the competitive end of the game. We tried explaining to you why your advice wouldn't help this list. You didn't comprehend or listen to that. This is my last chance at trying to help you understand the game better. But to be honest what you need is game time and game time against good players who know the rules. Other than that reading YMDC is a good place to start. Unfortunately you are not the only uninformed poster on the Army List forum so reading on here probably won't help you as you lack the ability to understand what the competitive posters are saying do will most likely end up listening to the bad advice...

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

Resv wrote:
Please no one respond to him, it's a trap!

It is a trap. Theyre either little kids or Neckbeards with Cheeto dust all up in their eyes or both. It would explain why they suck at reading at least.

That was a purely immature comment. I am about the furthest thing from a child or neckbeard, but I won't get into that. Also, please if you are going to reference my supplied statistics, do so correctly, you've routinely shown a lack of understanding for the math involved. My offer still stands, I'll further explain how to derive and utilize such statistics for those like who you do not grasp them.

Zagman wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

Resv wrote:
Please no one respond to him, it's a trap!

It is a trap. Theyre either little kids or Neckbeards with Cheeto dust all up in their eyes or both. It would explain why they suck at reading at least.

That was a purely immature comment. I am about the furthest thing from a child or neckbeard, but I won't get into that. Also, please if you are going to reference my supplied statistics, do so correctly, you've routinely shown a lack of understanding for the math involved. My offer still stands, I'll further explain how to derive and utilize such statistics for those like who you do not grasp them.

Zagman wrote:

Ignore AnonAmbientLight, he's giving 5th edition advice on a 6th edition list.

Yea, like your very first comment in this thread where you claim i haven't read the rules, try to belittle my opinion, and then you end up showing us how little you actually know about the game. Classic. You couldn't even leave your training wheels on for the very first damn comment in this thread, troll.

From then on you had this big headed argument by authority complex that got real annoying really fast. This would explain why it took me about 3-4 posts to show you why you were wrong on Gets Hot and the ECPA.

You seemingly purposefully present your facts to make it sound like the effect is really not as good as it seems.

You start with a 55.5% chance of success for the Nova charge....

Zagman wrote:

5/9 is 5/9, not 2/3. You've got only a 55.5% chance of even getting off a Nova Charged IA.

Then suddenly it's a 26% chance of failure instead of saying 74% chance of success for the Nova charge...

Zagman wrote:
Earth Caste Pilot Array. Is Awesome. Its also expensive, to swap a 190pt unit of BSides for a 235pt Riptide. You still fail to fire the Ordinance 26% of the time because you do not get to reroll the Gets Hot roll for Ordinance or Large Blast with the Earth Caste Pilot Array. .

Makes you seem like you're trying to down play something...

And then you were also wrong here about the rules on Gets Hot above ^ and below v...

Zagman wrote:

Earth Caste Pilot Array does not allow you to reroll the Gets Hot roll for the IA, because it is not a to hit roll. The HBC ECPA gets to reroll its gets hot because they are to hit rolls of 1. Please read the relevant rules before spouting nonsense.
.

You continued to be wrong, after i try to correct you numerous times, and you even insult me here. Until...

Zagman wrote:

As to the Earth Caste, my memory was indeed faulty. I did indeed miss the last line and the special inclusion, an ECPA would indeed allow the reroll. Thank you for quoting the appropriate line.

The insult was not necessary, did you need to stoop to such insults?

You then admit that you were wrong, after i literally HIGHLIGHTED AND BOLD FACED THE ACTUAL WORDS but insults are only ok when you do it. I spent two to three posts correcting you and asking you to please read the rule book (even with the page cited for you!) and you still got upset at being insulted. Put on your big boy pants. Don't insult people when you're not prepared to get an insult back. Don't try to save face and play the victim when you started it. It's the internet, all of this is recorded guy.

I still find it funny that, despite all the math you just showed us, you would rather DS a FB squad than use an IA riptide with ECPA. The Riptide in this case has a better chance of rolling it's nova, and get's hot rolls than the DS FB squad has coming in on T2. This also means it will most likely be shooting since T1!

How is the FB suits permissible, but the riptide is not? Especially with your own math confirming that the odds favor the ECPA riptide, as well as the riptide's versatility? (pie plate MEq / AV14 / anything under AV14.)

You also misrepresented your math on the riptide to make it seem less effective, just like you've been doing this entire thread. You were figuring out how often it would destroy an AV14 target, as in one shot it. With S9 and 2D6(pick the highest), the odds of pen would be around 40% or so. Then with AP2, you roll for the damage result +1. You will at least get crew shaken which results in a snap fire of that tank, T1, as well as a HP.

But a T2 possible T3 DS FB suit answer is superior some how. AND that suit squad doesn't need to be backed up by any other model in the army, especially if that model has one of the best signature systems in the chosen army.