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Hey mates. Currently, I have been on hiatus from 40k while learning a new job and moving to MD, but I was already planning on jumping back in to 40k once the Space Marines new book was coming out, which is right around the corner this September. Now saying that, I have always wanted to do a White Scars army, with Bikes, Land Speeders and Stormtalons (not interested in the Ravenwing so don't bring them up), however from looking at the rumors I just wanted to clarify something if anyone has heard anything about it. Currently in the Space Marine Book, if you take a Captain on a Bike, then all Bike squads count as troops, however according to the rumors, if I take a Commander only 1x Bike Squad becomes a troop choice, the same if I take the White Scars special character, along with his other special rules. Will I now only be able to take 2x bike squads as troops or can I still run a bike-themed list out of the standard Space Marine book? Appreciate the help mates.

Apparently you'll only be able to take one squad as Troops with a biker captain. There's talk of a White Scars codex with bikers as Troops, but not much in the way of solid info.

2 troops for basic force org.

Biker Captain

1 8 bike, 2 attack bike troop choice.
1 Scout squad with....Land speeder storm transport
3 fast attack full bike squads. Fill in the rest as needed. thats ALOT of bikes on the table.

ack... This sounds like its going to cause havoc with my bike list.

You can still fit in a decent number of bikes in a single FoC (if the rumours are correct):

2 bike captains
2 command squads on bikes (5 men each)
2 bike squads as troops (9 men each)
3 bike squads as fast attack (9 men each)

For a total of 57 models on bikes.

Of course you will want to reduce that due to adding land-speeders, Stormtalons, or attack bikes, but even so you should still be able to run a reasonable bike army, although you pay for it by needing two captains and having no slots for other characters (a librarian comes to mind)

I'm thinking my force may look something like this:

Captain on a bike
Khan on Moondraaken
Bike command squad
2 full bike squads as troops
Sniper scouts
Close combat scouts in a land-speeder storm (dedicated transport)
Land speeder typhoons
Land speeders
Attack bikes

Hmmm never mind... I totally forgot about the 2 HQ allowance for regular FOC... I think it might work out after all. My list is a mix of vehicular stuff. With the new SM codex I think my list will look something like this:

HQ
Captain w/ bike
Captain w/ bike

Elite
rifleman dread
rifleman dread

Troop
Full bike squad
Full bike Squad

Fast Attack
Full bike squad
Flyer
Flyer

Heavy Support
Tank
Tank

Kind of a shame to here that, but then again if the White Scars get there own Book as it has been mentioned, then I think they will be the only Space Marine Army barring the DA Ravenwing to have bikes as troops. Then again, you could take 1x Bike Captain and the White Scare Special Character and have the same results. Correct?

...yah, I'm a little worried too, but holding out for some Mongol love with a dedicated White Scar appen-dex! No brainer to make Storms Transports, glad to hear that! Any rumors on Outflanking LandRaider/Termies still being possible?

I really hope the rumoured supplement will give us full access to bikes as Troops, otherwise I'll have to lose the Librarian.

A bike option for Sternguard would also be lovely as my Elites are totally empty.

The bike units at 8 max should give you 4x4 scoring bike units. This should be pretty decent in objective games. With the army wide +1 to jink saves all of your models will be 3+/4+++ just for moving. They also get hit and run and with their chapter master they get scout. Don't forget scout is conferred to dedicated transports and also gives outflank.

You should also note that the land speeder storm is a dedicated transport. So this means you can take all those scouts and put them in a land speeder. You can then scout forward (or outflank) and get a nice 4+++ jink for moving. You basically get free holofields on everything in your army.

It is a shame for all the people who liked bikes galore but the army overall appears to have gotten much much better. You really should have been taking some bikeless scoring units anyways due to your difficulties with second floor objectives.

BTW the +1 to jink saves alone is just crazy good. In a skimmer+flyer army (which could totally be viable in the new dex) that is giving you an extra ~270 pts of worth (18*15pts as per holofields). Should be interesting to see how this shakes up the metta.

According to the latest update in N&R, Khan makes all bike squads of 5+ bikes Troops.

And so does a Captain, I think. 40K Radio was just messing with us on Facebook.

+1 to Jink does not apply to vehicles, though. From what I can tell, only Iron Hands chapter tactics directly affect vehicles (and our vehicles get Scout indirectly through their parent unit)

Assuming the 1 captain to 1 troop squad is accurate
Just ally with a different C:SM chapter. Take a third captain and 9 troop bikes. Then sprinkle in 9 to 12 attack bikes in fast attack for flavor.
Yes it's not the same list as before but it's still decent

Edit : I would not be shocked in the rumors about the 1 captain to 1 bike squad are true. GW may very well want 'pure' bike armies to be the domain of ravenwing, and want C:SM to still use some tacticals or scouts for the job.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Assuming the 1 captain to 1 troop squad is accurate
Just ally with a different C:SM chapter. Take a third captain and 9 troop bikes. Then sprinkle in 9 to 12 attack bikes in fast attack for flavor.
Yes it's not the same list as before but it's still decent

Edit : I would not be shocked in the rumors about the 1 captain to 1 bike squad are true. GW may very well want 'pure' bike armies to be the domain of ravenwing, and want C:SM to still use some tacticals or scouts for the job.

I doubt that, once the White Scars Supplement book comes out they should be able to take Bikes as troops, as the White Scars are known for using a lot of bikes in there Chapter. Heck, during the Horus Heresy they retook the Earths Space Port with a huge Bike charge, so I can see the White Scars being allowed pure bike armies, as they are more about lightning assaults as a whole Chapter then the DA, who only have one company dedicated to lightning assaults.

Rumor says Khaaaaaaan makes all bike units over 5 men into troops.

Yea, I saw that rumor.

It also said that only bikes would be getting the +1 jink saves. That would make me sad, as I was looking forward to fielding 9 speeders with a 4+ jink save.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Yea, I saw that rumor.

It also said that only bikes would be getting the +1 jink saves. That would make me sad, as I was looking forward to fielding 9 speeders with a 4+ jink save.

I can agree with you to a point, however in my case I was going to be running 2x Stormtalons w/TL Lascannons for my Air Support and extra anti-tank capabilities, so I was only planning on taking one squad of Land Speeders max to fill my fast slots. Btw what Landspeeders would you run? Im still debating either running the Typhoon Landspeeder or the Tornado Landspeeder with a Multi-Melta and a Heavy Flamer.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Yea, I saw that rumor.

It also said that only bikes would be getting the +1 jink saves. That would make me sad, as I was looking forward to fielding 9 speeders with a 4+ jink save.

Ditto, I was seriously considering a 9 landspeeders in FA (1x3 MM/MM and 2x3 HF/HF) and then filling the rest with speeder storms with scouts. It would be pretty hilarious and not actually that bad considering all the blinding attacks.

The current rumors I've seen allow for a captain on a bike to make all bike squads troops. there is also a rumor that bike squads will get combat tactics as well (spliting into 2 units). the latest I've seen is that if you play white scars as a chapter tactic you get the equivalent of skilled rider on every bike and +1 strength to HoW hits and hit and run.

It's been a pretty consistent rule through codexs that a captain on a bike makes bike units troops. At least 2 pervious codexs have allowed this and DA has been around for all of that too.

Pony_law wrote:
The current rumors I've seen allow for a captain on a bike to make all bike squads troops. there is also a rumor that bike squads will get combat tactics as well (spliting into 2 units). the latest I've seen is that if you play white scars as a chapter tactic you get the equivalent of skilled rider on every bike and +1 strength to HoW hits and hit and run.

It's been a pretty consistent rule through codexs that a captain on a bike makes bike units troops. At least 2 previous codexs have allowed this and DA has been around for all of that too.

Hmmm not sure if that is true, as bike squads are already small enough as it is and breaking them up would be pretty much free kill points to an enemy unless you use scout bikes the same way Eldar players use Jetbikes to claim objectives. Plus, wouldn't breaking up a bike squad render them not being a troop choice? As from reading earlier that Khan apparently makes bike Squads of 5x + troops, so I don't think you will have an option of breaking/combat squading a bike squad. The jinx save though sounds interesting though,

If they can combat squad, that should not affect troop status or not. That's fixed in the list building stage, not deployment. We'll see if anything changes that once the codex drops.

Grav guns are going to replace plasma on bikes in most lists I think. Fast moving relentless platforms (aka bikes) is where they are going to shine. Assuming they are priced reasonably and the rumors are accurate.

 Rommel44 wrote:
I can agree with you to a point, however in my case I was going to be running 2x Stormtalons w/TL Lascannons for my Air Support and extra anti-tank capabilities, so I was only planning on taking one squad of Land Speeders max to fill my fast slots. Btw what Landspeeders would you run? Im still debating either running the Typhoon Landspeeder or the Tornado Landspeeder with a Multi-Melta and a Heavy Flamer.

I've got 3 of them that I got in trades lately. My plan was to magnetize them so I could test different configs.

The DPP values for them are as follows. I am taking costs from the DA codex, as that's a probable result of the costs.
This is assuming your getting 2 GEQ under each. This is assuming 5 models under each flamer template.
Dual HB...........................Typhoon...........................Dual MM....................HB/Flamer....................HB/Flamer w/Vulcan
GEQ: 55.6........................GEQ: 50.............................GEQ: 5.3.....................GEQ: 97.22...................GEQ: 108.80
MEQ: 14.8........................MEQ: 13.5.........................MEQ: 2.3.....................MEQ: 62.96...................MEQ: 81.48
TEQ: 7.40.........................TEQ: 4.74...........................TEQ: 3.4....................MEQ: 12.96....................MEQ: 16.05

So what does this all mean?
* Pure HB speeders are not out of the question. This is especially the case when your facing infantry spam like we see today.
* Typhoons are lower RPP values but allow you to hurt vehicles more easily.
* Dual MMs should never be shot at infantry. Their only job is to shoot vehicles.
* Flamer speeders can do a good amount of damage. Their big risk is that they must get close to deliver that damage.
* These numbers also go up if you add prescience. Presence plus HB speeder squads is not a pile of suck. In fact, give the better RPP values, they are probably the unit I would go with in today's meta.

How do these numbers line up with other units? Well, let me show you the DPP of a wave serpent.
GEQ: 41.41
MEQ: 20.23
TEQ: 8.68
Now, I grant you that the durability of the wave serpents is much better as AV12 is much better than AV10. The wave serpent is also a tank, its a transport, etc...
However, if the speeder goes to a 4+ jink save, its not a bad choice. In fact, one that I would strongly look at for my biker marines.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Rommel44 wrote:
I can agree with you to a point, however in my case I was going to be running 2x Stormtalons w/TL Lascannons for my Air Support and extra anti-tank capabilities, so I was only planning on taking one squad of Land Speeders max to fill my fast slots. Btw what Landspeeders would you run? Im still debating either running the Typhoon Landspeeder or the Tornado Landspeeder with a Multi-Melta and a Heavy Flamer.

I've got 3 of them that I got in trades lately. My plan was to magnetize them so I could test different configs.

The DPP values for them are as follows. I am taking costs from the DA codex, as that's a probable result of the costs.
This is assuming your getting 2 GEQ under each. This is assuming 5 models under each flamer template.
Dual HB...........................Typhoon...........................Dual MM....................HB/Flamer....................HB/Flamer w/Vulcan
GEQ: 55.6........................GEQ: 50.............................GEQ: 5.3.....................GEQ: 97.22...................GEQ: 108.80
MEQ: 14.8........................MEQ: 13.5.........................MEQ: 2.3.....................MEQ: 62.96...................MEQ: 81.48
TEQ: 7.40.........................TEQ: 4.74...........................TEQ: 3.4....................MEQ: 12.96....................MEQ: 16.05

So what does this all mean?
* Pure HB speeders are not out of the question. This is especially the case when your facing infantry spam like we see today.
* Typhoons are lower RPP values but allow you to hurt vehicles more easily.
* Dual MMs should never be shot at infantry. Their only job is to shoot vehicles.
* Flamer speeders can do a good amount of damage. Their big risk is that they must get close to deliver that damage.
* These numbers also go up if you add prescience. Presence plus HB speeder squads is not a pile of suck. In fact, give the better RPP values, they are probably the unit I would go with in today's meta.

How do these numbers line up with other units? Well, let me show you the DPP of a wave serpent.
GEQ: 41.41
MEQ: 20.23
TEQ: 8.68
Now, I grant you that the durability of the wave serpents is much better as AV12 is much better than AV10. The wave serpent is also a tank, its a transport, etc...
However, if the speeder goes to a 4+ jink save, its not a bad choice. In fact, one that I would strongly look at for my biker marines.

True that the Land Speeder doesn't get a 4+ jink save, but they are still viable gun platforms, but I can honestly say that I never considered the Heavy Bolter options, as I have plenty of troop killing already with my bike list at the moment. Reason I an leaning towards the Multi Melta/Heavy Flamer option is that I am a big fan of units with flexibility to take on multiple opponents and multiple units, and although its a short ranged support fast attack, I have seen a squadron of 3x of these just wipe out an opponents IG army, as after targeting and blowing up his Leam Russ Battle tanks they just proceeded to massacure his Infantry Platoons, and by that time my bikes where already in the thick of it running down his troops .

With the maneuverability of the speeders and directional wound allocation, I think there is a place for the 2xHB speeder. The big question is can you do better for the slots/points?

Two HB speeders costs the same as 3 HB attack bikes. The bikes have one less HB, but do get 3xTL bolters. AV10, 2HP vs. T5 3+ 2W, jink saves all around is a question for the mathhammer folks and what kind of armies you are facing. Honestly, I think it's a wash, and go with what you think looks cool.

I think the biggest issue with the HB speeder is the opportunity cost of not taking something else. HBs are not hard to get into a list. From scouts to Land Raiders, and everywhere in between, the HB is a cheap, available option. HFs, TML, and fast MMs are a lot harder to find. And if we get the DA price change, for 15 points more then the extra HB, the TML gives you a LOT of flexibility in targets. When it was 60 for 2xHB vs. 90 for TML/HB it was a much harder call. At 60 to 75 I'll find the points for the upgrade.