Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey Dakka, quick rules question.

I'm very new to Fantasy and noticed a "discrepancy" regarding Killing Blow and the Ethereal special rules:

The Ethereal special rules mean that you cannot be wounded by mundane weapons, however, the Killing Blow special rule states that the enemy model is "slain instantly" on the To Wound roll of a '6'.

As far as I understand it, "slain instantly" does not mean that the model suffers a wound and therefore, Ethereal wouldn't protect you from it. Simmilarly, Just because you technically cannot wound it, does not prevent you from rolling To Wound with your attacks. Therefore, would it not be the case that any Killing Blow attack would bypass the Ethereal special rule?

Thanks Dakka,

Iranna.

Ethereal states you cannot be wounded by mundane weapons. *Shrug* I presume they cannot wound them even on killing blow.

 LordHamshire wrote:
Ethereal implies you can never be hit by mundane weapons, therefore there is no roll to wound. No chance for killing blow.

As far as I can see, the Ethereal rule only states that they may only be wounded by "spells, magical attacks, magic weapons or effects". Nothing there to say that you don't roll To Hit and To Wound as normal, only that mundane weapons cannot wound them.

Iranna.

Yeah I reread it, I was wrong, I edited my statement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you don't roll to wound, there is no chance to get killing blow. You cannot wound. (I think.)

I had argued this before. It is ambiguous. There is nothing stopping you from rolling to Wound against an Ethereal. It just won't succeed unless you've got a magic weapon. So it's a time savings. But it doesn't say "don't roll." Therefore, you could still roll a 6 and insta-kill. If you rolled a 1-5 absolutely nothing would happen.

Anyway, I'm not dead set on it. But it's one way of looking at it.

I don't have my rulebook at hand....
But if the weapon is not magical it cannot damage ethereal models. So the model with killing blow would have to have a magic weapon.
How are the rules written for ethereal and for killing blow?

I'm taking part here even though I think its a stretch to try and apply killing blow. And in my opinion is just bad form. Most people probably know what the intent of ethereal is.
When we start rules lawyering too much we get a rulebook that is too longboring and inflexible.

We had the same discussion on a mailing list and couldn't come to a satisfactory conclusion as there's no definition in the BRB of "damaging" something
if it's "damaging = causing a wound" then you can KB an ethereal
if it's "damaging = causing a wound or harming in any way, including -remove as a casualty-" then you can't KB an ethereal
Not clear cut rules wise, even if it's very clear fluff-wise

a reind of mine and I were discussing this and he came across this. I intend to look through my book when I get home and try to disrepute it but he puts a compelling arguement forward:

BRB p.44 Instant Kills

ETHEREAL . BRB p.72

KILLING BLOW BRB p.51

REMOVE CASUALTIES With saving throws made or failed, you now need to remove the slain. Close combat casualties are removed in the same way as shooting ones.... I wanted to outline these in this specific order to reach the following logical conclusions: The first rule states that some rules cause instant kills and do not inflict wounds.

Ethereals are immune to non-magical wound generators.

As Killing Blow is not causing wounds as explained in the first bullet point above, Ethereal does not get around the Killing Blow effect. KILLING BLOW states that it "slays" an opponent. REMOVE CASUALTIES ties the phrase "slain" (past tense of "slay" to the phrase "close combat casualties". "Casualties" is also explicitly stated in the first rule above for "Instant Kills", thus reaffirming that KILLING BLOW falls under the aegis of the "Instant Kills" rule. Killing Blow removes casualties without causing wounds if the target fails to make a ward save. Ergo, Ethereal does not ignore Killing Blow.

source:

http://z4.invisionfree.com/Khemri/index.php?s=c8bbf6a4880f17d61b7e2bf62765e038&showtopic=13609&st=50
Tomb Kings of Khemri Forum -> Killing blow vs ethereal
z4.invisionfree.com



I've removed his direct quotes of the rulebook to conform to forum rules.

I agree with him to an extent, I think he is correct, howerver I don't think that it was intended. (although I'm happy enough to be prooven wrong)

as I said I will be trying to pick this arguement apart later, but its a very well presented arguement for KB to work.

Eh, put me under the 'no, killing blow does not bypass ethereal' column.

Not the BRB, but from my E-VC book: (I don't mean to not quote the BRB, I just don't have it on hand.)

Ethereal- "Conversly, Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magical weapons or effects."

Killing blow- "If a model with the Killing Blow special rule rolls a 6 to wound in close combat, he automatically slays his opponent..."

My interpretation is that Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by:
-Spells
-Magical Attacks
-Magical Weapons
-Magical Effects

I see where people could point to 'effects.' at the end of the Ethereal line, but then we'd have to define effects and whether or not special rules are effects. I realize language may be a bit shaky but I feel intent is quite clear.

Reads that it should work, despite the counter-intuitiveness.

Killing Blow does not cause a wound to be ignored.

 jmsincla wrote:
Ethereal- "Conversly, Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magical weapons or effects."

Killing blow- "If a model with the Killing Blow special rule rolls a 6 to wound in close combat, he automatically slays his opponent..."

Slay isn't wound. Roll to wound, successful wound are specific game terms and functions. Kind of like this:

1. Roll to hit
2. If successful, continue
3. Roll to wound
4. If successful
5. Roll save(s)
6. If unsuccessful, continue

I'M ETHEREAL, NYAH NYAH NYAH, DON'T CONTINUE

7. Target takes a wound


I mean it's kind of funny, but there's nothing in Ethereal that says stop at 1,2,3,4, etc. I.e., you could even make them roll their armor saves/ward/regen even though there is no point. Even if Ethereal doesn't crop up here, it would be after #3. You can hit stuff that is Ethereal, right (nothing says you can't)? So you can roll to hit on them. Likewise, killing blow never reaches #4 above. It short circuits on 3 and Ethereal wouldn't really kick in from what I see in RAW, until at the very earliest #4. If someone fails to wound, Ethereal doesn't do anything.

Anyway, you're generally going to not do this because it's a huge waste of time rolling against stuff you can't hurt. Only KB makes it worth questioning.

If the weapon with Killing Blow is mundane, it cannot hurt an Etheral Model because the weapon is mundane and hence cannot harm the Ethereal model in any way.

If the weapon with Killing Blow is magical, then Killing Blow works as normal on the Ethereal model (presuming it's not a Monster etc.)

 The Shadow wrote:
it cannot hurt an Etheral Model because the weapon is mundane and hence cannot harm the Ethereal model in any way.

This is not what Etherial states.

First off, "harm" is not a game term. Second off, even if it was, it is never used in any way in regards to the Ethereal rule. So you're basically just making stuff up.

Like I can say Killing Blow slaughterizes anything regardless of anything except model type and ward save. But instead of rewriting the rules, we can just use what is printed.

"Conversely, Ethereal creatures can only be WOUNDED by...magical weapons..."

That's what the BRB says. *Emphasis added*

 kirsanth wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
it cannot hurt an Etheral Model because the weapon is mundane and hence cannot harm the Ethereal model in any way.

This is not what Etherial states.

Not exactly of course, I was summarising,

To cite in full, Ethereal states that: "Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or effects." Hence, a mundane weapon (i.e. one that is not magical) cannot wound an Ethereal model, because it is not magical, irrespective of any special rules it has, such as Killing Blow, Poisoned Attacks or Flaming Attacks, for example.

Killing blow activating does not cause a wound.

 The Shadow wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
it cannot hurt an Etheral Model because the weapon is mundane and hence cannot harm the Ethereal model in any way.

This is not what Etherial states.

Not exactly of course, I was summarising,

To cite in full, Ethereal states that: "Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or effects." Hence, a mundane weapon (i.e. one that is not magical) cannot wound an Ethereal model, because it is not magical, irrespective of any special rules it has, such as Killing Blow, Poisoned Attacks or Flaming Attacks, for example.

Find where killing blow causes a wound.

Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or "effects", Kiling blow is an effect that accures when you roll a 6 to wound, As such Killing blow would in deed kill an etherial model. so as other have said, If a model has KB/HKB, roll to hit as normal, roll to wound, 1-5 normal Mondane wound noting happens, roll a 6, and you have an Wound with the Killing Blow "Effect", As such a etheral may make a ward save or is removed.

You're missing the point. It's not a wound. Killing Blow could be labeled as a mundane attack, non-magic spell, and non-magic effect, that's not what is being disputed. It is the fact that Ethereal protects against being wounded and KB slays. Those words aren't the same.

Killing Blow is a Special Rule, just like Ethereal. A unit has it, period. It doesn't "occur" on a 6. You always have it. Just like Ethereal doesn't cease to exist just because someone has a magic weapon.

cawizkid wrote:
Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or "effects", Kiling blow is an effect that accures when you roll a 6 to wound, As such Killing blow would in deed kill an etherial model. so as other have said, If a model has KB/HKB, roll to hit as normal, roll to wound, 1-5 normal Mondane wound noting happens, roll a 6, and you have an Wound with the Killing Blow "Effect", As such a etheral may make a ward save or is removed.

Your emphasising effects out of context.

It should be "and MAGIC items and effects"

The items and effects have to be magic, as per proper usage of the english language.

Eihnlazer wrote:

cawizkid wrote:
Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or "effects", Kiling blow is an effect that accures when you roll a 6 to wound, As such Killing blow would in deed kill an etherial model. so as other have said, If a model has KB/HKB, roll to hit as normal, roll to wound, 1-5 normal Mondane wound noting happens, roll a 6, and you have an Wound with the Killing Blow "Effect", As such a etheral may make a ward save or is removed.

Your emphasising effects out of context.

It should be "and MAGIC items and effects"

The items and effects have to be magic, as per proper usage of the english language.

RAW does not say "and" Effects, It says "or" effects. It does not say Magical Effects. all other are clearly Writen as Wounds by Spells, "Magical" Attacks and "Magical" Weapons "or" "Effects", not Magical Effects, They specifically put magic infront of everything else related as Spells are buy the BRB magical.

@Duke, KB is a special Rule that Effects Dice rolls of 6 to wound, It does not effect any other rolled number to wound. Just As Poison is an effect that is 6 to Hit. not 1-5. (Unless modified)

Well, it's always dangerous outlining GW sentences. But...looking at my reed-kellog diagrammer, effects is it's own clause without a modifier. So ANY effect could affect them. I.e., it goes:

Ethereal creatures | wounded by

--spells magic this that other

--OR effects

There is no modifier for effects. So if you really want to go that route, any "effect" (whatever that is) in the game can wound them. Is swinging a mundane sword an effect? I have no idea as it is not defined anywhere in the BRB.

Killing Blow is a Special Rule. Special Rules are game terms. If something says it is immune to KB, fine. Or immune to wounding, fine. Those are game terms. So is armor save. The text of KB is what KB is. When you roll a 6 on to-wound, nowhere does it say I'M NOW AN EFFECT-->SLAY! It is merely the text of the Special Rule.

So, if Killing Blow does not cause a wound.....then why do you get a ward save?

Because it says you do in the special rule. If it said you get a regen save you would too. If it said you get to make an init save it still wouldn't make it a wound.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
it cannot hurt an Etheral Model because the weapon is mundane and hence cannot harm the Ethereal model in any way.

This is not what Etherial states.

Not exactly of course, I was summarising,

To cite in full, Ethereal states that: "Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or effects." Hence, a mundane weapon (i.e. one that is not magical) cannot wound an Ethereal model, because it is not magical, irrespective of any special rules it has, such as Killing Blow, Poisoned Attacks or Flaming Attacks, for example.

Find where killing blow causes a wound.

Killing Blow rolls to wound. Ethereal units cannot be wounded by mundane items. I guess there is the smallest fragment of an argument that because KB does not specifically say "causes a wound", you could argue KB negates Steadfast. However, I think it's fairly clear that "rolling to wound" is you trying to cause wounds. The rules aren't going to cover every single niggle in the entire game mechanics, you need to employ a little common sense. I see where you, and the others, are coming from, and it's a fair point, but I highly, highly doubt it is correct.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
it cannot hurt an Etheral Model because the weapon is mundane and hence cannot harm the Ethereal model in any way.

This is not what Etherial states.

Not exactly of course, I was summarising,

To cite in full, Ethereal states that: "Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or effects." Hence, a mundane weapon (i.e. one that is not magical) cannot wound an Ethereal model, because it is not magical, irrespective of any special rules it has, such as Killing Blow, Poisoned Attacks or Flaming Attacks, for example.

Find where killing blow causes a wound.

Ethereal reads......"..only be wounded..and magic weapons or effects."
Grammatically, 'or' is used to replace the word it follows. That word being weapons, to shorten the writing rather than writing...'...magic weapons or magic effects.'
Another example
'or '
presents an alternative item or idea ("Every day they gamble or they smoke.")

Killing blow states .'..rolls a six to wound in close combat he automatically slays..
It does not say when rolling a six you slay your opponent.
You cannot cause a wound to roll the six.
You must have a magic weapon to get to the point of rolling to wound.
Just as poison attacks you must roll to hit for poison to work and be able to roll the 6. If you need a 7 your poison will not work.

 Peasant wrote:

You must have a magic weapon to get to the point of rolling to wound.
Just as poison attacks you must roll to hit for poison to work and be able to roll the 6. If you need a 7 your poison will not work.

Nowhere does Ethereal say that it stops you from rolling. To hit or to wound. Only the results of a successful wound are blocked.

For instance, if there was a Special Rule that took effect on HIT, regardless of wound, would you still be allowed to use it even if the owner was non-magical? Like if you're hit you're forced to take a panic test. I know some war machines can do that, but pretend it's just some kind of monster. Would some unseen force stop the monster? Of course not. They could attack and hit and force the test, even if they couldn't wound. Another question, what about a giant? What if a giant walks up to some ghosts and squashes one? No wound table is rolled on, no wound is given, "the model is removed as a casualty." Giants certainly aren't magic.

The rules for poison are clearly stated under the special rule itself. If you need a 7 it is lost. Not only that but if you need a 10+ to hit it says it is impossible and the shots are lost. They put that specifically in Poison but no similar language exists for KB.

DukeRustfield wrote:

 Peasant wrote:

You must have a magic weapon to get to the point of rolling to wound.
Just as poison attacks you must roll to hit for poison to work and be able to roll the 6. If you need a 7 your poison will not work.

Nowhere does Ethereal say that it stops you from rolling. To hit or to wound. Only the results of a successful wound are blocked.

For instance, if there was a Special Rule that took effect on HIT, regardless of wound, would you still be allowed to use it even if the owner was non-magical? Like if you're hit you're forced to take a panic test. I know some war machines can do that, but pretend it's just some kind of monster. Would some unseen force stop the monster? Of course not. They could attack and hit and force the test, even if they couldn't wound. Another question, what about a giant? What if a giant walks up to some ghosts and squashes one? No wound table is rolled on, no wound is given, "the model is removed as a casualty." Giants certainly aren't magic.

The rules for poison are clearly stated under the special rule itself. If you need a 7 it is lost. Not only that but if you need a 10+ to hit it says it is impossible and the shots are lost. They put that specifically in Poison but no similar language exists for KB.

To an extent you are correct..
It does not stop you from rolling. "to hit or to wound". But you are wasting your time. Again..it says '...rolls a six to wound..." not when you roll a six. without the magic weapon you never get to the other stages.

As for the second part...no.
You must posess magic to effect ethereal creatures.
Giants cannot do anything to ethereal creatures because they are not magical.
That is why some weapons and other effects are listed as magical.
The rule for ethereal specifically states magic.

The problem here is that the attempted focus has shifted to .."..to wound.." rather than the more important part which is .."magical"

You are correct again with poison, from the other side really.
Ethereal gives you the specific requirement of magic.
Killing blow gives you the requirement to roll a 6 to wound.
Neither give you direction to do anything else.

As for giants, you're clearly wrong there. At least in RAW. There isn't even a hint of wording in either set of rules, Giants or Ethereal, that would block a giant from smushing or eating or pants-shoving a ghost.

The problem here is that the attempted focus has shifted to .."..to wound.." rather than the more important part which is .."magical"

It's one sentence. There is no focus shift. They are inextricably tied together. No magic, no wound. KB doesn't wound. Giants don't wound--if they roll the version to take X wounds, that would indeed be stopped. It doesn't matter if they are magic or not if they aren't wounding.

If it said harmed, injured or any other such catch-all term, then it would stop it. But they used the game term "wounded." The Lore of Light does extra damage to units that are Undead. That doesn't mean not dead and removed from play (i.e., anyone you are targeting). It is a game term. If they wanted to say harmed/injured/scratched/annoyed they could (should) have written that.

You need eggs to make a cake. Those two nouns are connected. If someone is making pie it's irrelevant if they have eggs. Actually, I don't know how to bake, but you get the idea.

DukeRustfield wrote:
As for giants, you're clearly wrong there. At least in RAW. There isn't even a hint of wording in either set of rules, Giants or Ethereal, that would block a giant from smushing or eating or pants-shoving a ghost.

The problem here is that the attempted focus has shifted to .."..to wound.." rather than the more important part which is .."magical"

It's one sentence. There is no focus shift. They are inextricably tied together. No magic, no wound. KB doesn't wound. Giants don't wound--if they roll the version to take X wounds, that would indeed be stopped. It doesn't matter if they are magic or not if they aren't wounding.

If it said harmed, injured or any other such catch-all term, then it would stop it. But they used the game term "wounded." The Lore of Light does extra damage to units that are Undead. That doesn't mean not dead and removed from play (i.e., anyone you are targeting). It is a game term. If they wanted to say harmed/injured/scratched/annoyed they could (should) have written that.

You need eggs to make a cake. Those two nouns are connected. If someone is making pie it's irrelevant if they have eggs. Actually, I don't know how to bake, but you get the idea.

Giants roll a chart and cause wounds. No magic, no wounds.
There is a focus shift. you just said " KB doesn't wound". Yet believe that you can ignore the part magical..and then proceed to say that they are linked. Is killing blow magical.?
Magic is obviously required to affect ethereal creatures. No magic No effect.
.
Why do you believe you get to ignore the instructions of killing blow that states "... rolls a six to wound.." ? It is quite obvious that wounding with a 6 is necessary.
Killing blow may not wound but you must wound to cause killing blow.
Killing blows description even states..regardless of the number of wounds...
It also states ' if the attack wounds automatically , then killing blow does not come into play.'
So you must wound the victim.
No magic no wound.

.
Just as rolling to hit with poison..if you don't roll to hit you can't apply poison unless instructed otherwise.
The occasional attack that states removed as a casualty may apply. But I doubt it.
I understand the desire to find other ways to kill ethereal creatures but killing blow is not one of them.

As for the eggs and cake...It is very difficult to make cake without eggs.