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 Peasant wrote:
Giants roll a chart and cause wounds.

I don't think you're very familiar with giants.

Magic is obviously required to affect ethereal creatures.

Where does it say affect? Oh, it doesn't. So you're making stuff up. Please stick to what is written.
.

Why do you believe you get to ignore the instructions of killing blow that states "... rolls a six to wound.." ? It is quite obvious that wounding with a 6 is necessary.

Because if you roll a 6, you don't wound. KB takes over and you slay. There is no wound.

It also states ' if the attack wounds automatically , then killing blow does not come into play.'
So you must wound the victim.

Your logic fails. If something wounds automatically, you never get to roll a 6. Or 5. Or anything. You have completely bypassed that table. And since KB relies on you rolling on that table, they had to decide whether you roll an imaginary die for a wound you already caused, automatically KB, or automatically fail KB. They chose the last one.

Just as rolling to hit with poison..if you don't roll to hit you can't apply poison unless instructed otherwise.

Yes, it is stated. It is not stated for KB. And KB is not Poison. The rules of one Special Rule have no effect on another unless stated. Ethereal units aren't Flammable.

Since it is utterly ridiculous that striking harder or at a certain angle lets you kill smoke, light or sound any better, I would prefer a different reading and I think the "to wound" part is important. Rolling to wound comes before KB enters the equation, if only a microsecond.

Now it has been suggested that nothing stops you from rolling to wound but that can be disputed on the basis of the Ethereal rule. It would be much more elegant to interpret the various rules so that you actually need to be eligible to roll, and to check for eligibility before rolling. No magic weapon, spell, and yes, magic effect*, no roll to wound, and no subsequent KB.

* It is very obvious that this can mean both, effect or magic effect. Both are grammatically correct, and we've had the same discussion with monstrous cavalry / cavalry. If one reading makes more sense than the other...you get the gist.

But having a bunch of guys charging down hill with a banner DOES win combat and they do die from Instability or otherwise losing. It's certainly not omnipotent against anything non magic.

If you want to expand fear to non-magic "effects" (whatever those are) then Ethereal can block Fear, Terror, Panic tests, charges, challenges and pretty much anything else in the book.

to-wound is a process, Peasant. Nothing in the Ethereal rule states you do not roll to-wound.

Ethereal models can be slain outright without being wounded.

Nothing in the rules prevents it, and (Heroic) Killing Blow can cause it.

 kirsanth wrote:
Ethereal models can be slain outright without being wounded.

Nothing in the rules prevents it, and (Heroic) Killing Blow can cause it.

If you have magical attacks, yes. As KB & HKB are on the roll to wound and if you cannot wound, then you cannot score a KN/HKB. Just like poisoned shooting not working on 7's or more.

It is nothing like poisoned attacks, and there is not a need to have a magical weapon to kill Ethereals outright - only to wound them.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:
Ethereal models can be slain outright without being wounded.

Nothing in the rules prevents it, and (Heroic) Killing Blow can cause it.

If you have magical attacks, yes. As KB & HKB are on the roll to wound and if you cannot wound, then you cannot score a KN/HKB. Just like poisoned shooting not working on 7's or more.

You can provide a rules quote to back up your assertion that being unable to cause a wound is equal to being unable to roll on the to-wound chart?

Youre lacking one, and given your ENTIRE argument hangs on it, I would suggest finding one.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:
Ethereal models can be slain outright without being wounded.

Nothing in the rules prevents it, and (Heroic) Killing Blow can cause it.

If you have magical attacks, yes. As KB & HKB are on the roll to wound and if you cannot wound, then you cannot score a KN/HKB. Just like poisoned shooting not working on 7's or more.

You can provide a rules quote to back up your assertion that being unable to cause a wound is equal to being unable to roll on the to-wound chart?

Youre lacking one, and given your ENTIRE argument hangs on it, I would suggest finding one.

Both KB and HKB only work on successful rolls to wound, and since models with ethereal cannot be successfully wounded by non magical attacks, neither will work without a magic weapon.

Both KB and HKB only work on successful rolls to wound

No, they work on a roll of 6 to wound. Again, please use the language that is written. It does not say successful. It does not say failed. It says 6. 6 is merely a number. The rule does not make any mention of successfully wounding.

I still don't understand how you can roll a ward save if there isn't a wound to save. Saves only work for wounds, if it isn't a wound, then a ward wouldn't be allowed.

Because the rules state that killing blows can be negated by a successful ward save, maybe?

 thedarkavenger wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:
Ethereal models can be slain outright without being wounded.

Nothing in the rules prevents it, and (Heroic) Killing Blow can cause it.

If you have magical attacks, yes. As KB & HKB are on the roll to wound and if you cannot wound, then you cannot score a KN/HKB. Just like poisoned shooting not working on 7's or more.

You can provide a rules quote to back up your assertion that being unable to cause a wound is equal to being unable to roll on the to-wound chart?

Youre lacking one, and given your ENTIRE argument hangs on it, I would suggest finding one.

Both KB and HKB only work on successful rolls to wound, and since models with ethereal cannot be successfully wounded by non magical attacks, neither will work without a magic weapon.

Please stop inserting words into a rules discussion that dont actually exist in the written rules.

KB requires you to roll a 6 to-wound. Nothing more, and nothing less.

YOu are required to find a RULE, with page and graph, stating that against ethereal models you do not roll to wound. Page and graph, or concede.

Roll a 6 to wound is different from actually wounding.
I've changed my mind in this since the last time it was debated - KB and some giant results don't cause wunds. Kb specifically says that it doesn't cause wounds. So Ethereal doesn't block them by RAW.
I wouldn't play it though, as I think it is silly; occasional houee rules make games happy.

This seems like another case of silly RAW to me as well, seems to be written that way though.

We should have another compilation thread for those things it's been years.

DukeRustfield wrote:

 Peasant wrote:
Giants roll a chart and cause wounds.

I don't think you're very familiar with giants.

Magic is obviously required to affect ethereal creatures.

Where does it say affect? Oh, it doesn't. So you're making stuff up. Please stick to what is written.
.

Why do you believe you get to ignore the instructions of killing blow that states "... rolls a six to wound.." ? It is quite obvious that wounding with a 6 is necessary.

Because if you roll a 6, you don't wound. KB takes over and you slay. There is no wound.

It also states ' if the attack wounds automatically , then killing blow does not come into play.'
So you must wound the victim.

Your logic fails. If something wounds automatically, you never get to roll a 6. Or 5. Or anything. You have completely bypassed that table. And since KB relies on you rolling on that table, they had to decide whether you roll an imaginary die for a wound you already caused, automatically KB, or automatically fail KB. They chose the last one.

Just as rolling to hit with poison..if you don't roll to hit you can't apply poison unless instructed otherwise.

Yes, it is stated. It is not stated for KB. And KB is not Poison. The rules of one Special Rule have no effect on another unless stated. Ethereal units aren't Flammable.

Warning..this is going to get long. Lots to reply to.

Giants...jump up and down..causes 2d6 hits that wound at strength. No magic, no wound
Swing with club..d6 hits on the unit at the giants strength. No magic, no wound.
As I said, I'm up in the air about others that remove as casualties like 'stuff in bag'..but i'd be inclined to say no because no magic involved.

Where does it say affect..it is what it means when the paragraph on Ethereal says 'only be wounded by spells, magical attacks, magic weapons or effects.' No magic no effect.
Stick to what is written... 'MAGIC'

You are right killing blow takes over for the wound you would have caused. No wound, no killing blow

So you're saying killing blow doesn't want you to roll on the imaginary table so they decided they should fail. Right?
But you want to roll on the imaginary table to try and cause a wound that you have been told you can't roll on because you don't have a magic weapon?? That sounds like faulty logic.

What does rolling a 'rolling a 6 to wound' mean then? Sounds to me like it means when you roll a six to wound.
What do you think it means??








Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:
Ethereal models can be slain outright without being wounded.

Nothing in the rules prevents it, and (Heroic) Killing Blow can cause it.

If you have magical attacks, yes. As KB & HKB are on the roll to wound and if you cannot wound, then you cannot score a KN/HKB. Just like poisoned shooting not working on 7's or more.

You can provide a rules quote to back up your assertion that being unable to cause a wound is equal to being unable to roll on the to-wound chart?

Youre lacking one, and given your ENTIRE argument hangs on it, I would suggest finding one.

Your standard defense is show a rule..
It is under Ethereal...
where it states MAGIC...
Why does everyone choose to ignore the part about magic?
It seems pretty clear that if you don'y have magic the ethereal creature is safe other than combat res.

Why would you do anything if you can't do it. That makes no sense. Rolling to wound when you can't wound is ridiculous.
If you can't charge, why roll charge distance?
Why shoot if you can't hit?
So a hellblaster should roll every turn to see if it misfires right? Even if the target is out of range, because even though they can't reach they could still be trying to shoot and it could misfire. Ridiculous
Just because you can generate an attempt at a positive result does not validate the idea.

Where is your rule written that allows you to ignore the magic portion?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DukeRustfield wrote:

Both KB and HKB only work on successful rolls to wound

No, they work on a roll of 6 to wound. Again, please use the language that is written. It does not say successful. It does not say failed. It says 6. 6 is merely a number. The rule does not make any mention of successfully wounding.

It says a 6 to wound. It does not say on a roll of a 6.
6 is not a number, it is the required roll 'to wound'
A 6 will always wound, s1 vs. t10 will wound on a 6, but to wound ethereal it must be magic.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
@nosferatu- stop telling people to show a rule or concede, or maybe show a rule that lets you bypass the instructions about being magical or concede.

Again, though I doubt it, 'removed as a casualty' may affect the ethereal creatures but killing blow definitely does not unless there is magic involved,

You are right killing blow takes over for the wound you would have caused. No wound, no killing blow

KB has no requirement you did a wound. If you did a wound you would get an armor save. A regen save. You don't. You get a ward save because that is written in the special rule. But it doesn't say it blocks the wound, as there is no wound.

6 is not a number, it is the required roll 'to wound'

No, it's not. If someone with 10 str. attacks someone with 1T they need a 2+ to wound. If they have KB, they slay. They do not wound. If the target has 10 wounds, they don't do one wound. They slay. The target is never wounded. If they have any item/spell that responds on-wound, it would not trigger, because they are not being wounded.

And you're picking and choosing your rules. 6 means something in other rules. As we've seen with Poison, if you roll a 6 but need a 7+ to hit...TOUGH LUCK.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
to-wound is a process, Peasant. Nothing in the Ethereal rule states you do not roll to-wound.

Everything in the Ethereal rule can be interpreted to be a prerequisite for the to-wound roll though - and that would make a lot of sense.

 kirsanth wrote:
Ethereal models can be slain outright without being wounded.

There's no rule like that.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

You can provide a rules quote to back up your assertion that being unable to cause a wound is equal to being unable to roll on the to-wound chart?

Youre lacking one, and given your ENTIRE argument hangs on it, I would suggest finding one.

The lack of a rule is insubstantial when it is about differing interpretations. Your argument that you can roll on the to-wound chart despite certain restrictions seems just as farfetched. You cannot provide any explicit quote either I'm afraid, so what's the fuss about?

DukeRustfield wrote:

You are right killing blow takes over for the wound you would have caused. No wound, no killing blow

KB has no requirement you did a wound. If you did a wound you would get an armor save. A regen save. You don't. You get a ward save because that is written in the special rule. But it doesn't say it blocks the wound, as there is no wound.

6 is not a number, it is the required roll 'to wound'

No, it's not. If someone with 10 str. attacks someone with 1T they need a 2+ to wound. If they have KB, they slay. They do not wound. If the target has 10 wounds, they don't do one wound. They slay. The target is never wounded. If they have any item/spell that responds on-wound, it would not trigger, because they are not being wounded.

And you're picking and choosing your rules. 6 means something in other rules. As we've seen with Poison, if you roll a 6 but need a 7+ to hit...TOUGH LUCK.

You have answered your own question. Read what you typed.
Yes, s10 vs t1 needs a 2+. The number is not arbitrary. You need a 2,3,4,5, or 6. If they have killing blow they slay on a 6 rather than wound.
The description of killing blow even states ..'regardless of the number of wounds on the victims profile'. Why reference wounds?
The description also states 'the ward prevents all damage..' it does not state that the ward save prevents the killing blow.
How do we damage in this game? With wounds.

I am using all of the rules. The rules state the need for magic. Killing blow is in on itself, not magic. If you have killing blow and magic attacks proceed to roll your 6 to wound and slay your opponent.

Peasant wrote:
Your standard defense is show a rule..

Yes, it is useful in a rules debate to actually back up assertions with rules. Something you apparently struggle to understand.

Peasant wrote:It is under Ethereal...
where it states MAGIC...
Why does everyone choose to ignore the part about magic?

We're not, you just seem to not be able to parse that sentence at all correctly. It states they can only be WOUNDED ***BY*** [list of items]

ONE of those items is an "effect".

Killing Blow does not cause a wound. So, given your rule only states they cannot be WOUNDED by anything other than magic, find where they can be protected from being SLAIN.

Anything?

Peasant wrote:It seems pretty clear that if you don'y have magic the ethereal creature is safe other than combat res.

Only through a chronic misreading of the rule could you come to that conclusion.

Peasant wrote:Why would you do anything if you can't do it. That makes no sense.

Indeed, what you wrote makes no sense.

Peasant wrote:Rolling to wound when you can't wound is ridiculous.

Page quote for your assertion? This is a rules debate after all.

Anything?

You are unable to cause a wound, but you still follow the rules which state you roll to-hit, and roll to-wound. Unless you could, possible, FOR ONCE, find a rule that says otherwise?

Other than your assertion that it is rediculous?

Peasant wrote:If you can't charge, why roll charge distance?

Because you have a restriction saying you cannot charge, meaning you have no permission to roll charge distance.

Peasant wrote:Why shoot if you can't hit?

Ooh, you made a mistake there - when you have an effect that triggers. For example (pre 8th) when you were out of range with Skaven snipers, you were still required to roll to-hit in case you misfired.

Peasant wrote:So a hellblaster should roll every turn to see if it misfires right?

No, because you have no declared a shooting attack with it. Basic rules concepts here, that you seem unable to grasp.

Peasant wrote: Even if the target is out of range, because even though they can't reach they could still be trying to shoot and it could misfire. Ridiculous

Yes, your strawman, awful arguments are indeed ridiculous.

Peasant wrote:Just because you can generate an attempt at a positive result does not validate the idea.

Where is your rule written that allows you to ignore the magic portion?

Given in the KB rules, which states it does not cause any wounds.

I am confused, you keep saying a rule about being unable to WOUND an ethereal creature has something to do with an effect that does not cause wounds. IT is a completely ridiculous equating of two entirely different concepts you are doing, and something you are doing with NO RULES BASIS at all.

None.
Nothing
Zip
Zilch
Nada

But then, this isnt the first time.

So, how about - find a rule. Anything. And no, this rule is not contained in a line which talks about WOUNDING. This isnt causing a wound, this is slaying. Two different words, with two different in game definitions

Mike - actually the argument is presented already. You are required, in close combat, to roll to-hit, and then to-wound. Find the line that states you cannot do so against ethereal creatures.

So it IS proven on this side, now the non-KB side have to show some actual rules.

You can think of Ethereal as a 1+ ward save that never fails on a 1. The only exceptions being that they only apply to wounds caused and vs. non-magic attacks.

But to activate, you still need to reach it. Even though you know you're going to block wounds, the ward save itself doesn't stop the enemy from rolling to hit, rolling to wound, taking your armor save, then rolling ward. Because that is the natural steps as laid out in the BRB. We take shortcuts because it's easier.

Ward save doesn't say, "if this can't fail, don't even try." Neither does Ethereal.

In fact, if an Ethereal unit has a Charmed Shield, which can negate the first hit on a roll, it has to try and negate the first hit, MAGIC OR NOT! Which means it can negate a hit that would have ultimately not hurt the user. If a non-magic then magic hit comes in, the Ethereal user doesn't get to ignore the non-magic hit, he has to roll to see if it wastes his shield.

Those are the normal order of operations in the BRB. Nothing says or hints that you no longer carry them out.

P. 68.

Ethereal creaturse can only be wounded by magical attacks, magic weapons or effects.

There you go. Unless you have a magical weapon, KB and HKB are mundane effects, so they wouldn't come into play against ethereal.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
P. 68.

Ethereal creaturse can only be wounded. . .

Yep.

Totally not the discussion going on here, thanks though.

Interesting that the OP even has this and people still think it is news.

Killing blow does not wound.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
P. 68.

Ethereal creaturse can only be wounded by magical attacks, magic weapons or effects.

There you go. Unless you have a magical weapon, KB and HKB are mundane effects, so they wouldn't come into play against ethereal.

Underlined the bit you are failing to read.

Killing Blow does not wound. This has been stated ad nauseum. People repeating arguments relying on wounds being caused should now be considered trolls, as there is no possible way to have missed that line of argument being thoroughly and totally debunked.

Ethereal creatures can only be [wounded] by magical attacks, magic weapons or effects.

Yes. Can Ethereal creatures be made to take panic tests? Can they be subject to Terror? Can they be subject to Stupidity?

None of those are magic. For some reason you all are saying "...cannot be...magic attacks..." makes them immune to every single rule and subrule in the book. It applies to one and only one thing: being wounded. An extremely specific condition in the BRB that we all know. Is Terror being wounded? No, because it does not remove wound(s) from the profile and the special rule doesn't say so. KB likewise does not remove wound(s) from the profile nor does the special rule says so--it says slay.

Even if KB said, "take off one wound, just to piss them off, and then slay them." Ethereal would block the would being removed, but Ethereal does not block slay. It has no wording that says otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lol, actually, I don't know what Ethereal does to stupidity because of the movement hindrance codicil. So like, forget that part, I don't want to open another can o worms.

Killing blow rules state that ward save can be applied against killing blow.
Instant Kills BRB.44 states that "no saves of any kind" are allowed for instant kills.
Ergo: Killing blow is basically NOT an instant kill because you can apply ward save and you cannot use it to slay etherals because for ward save to be applied there have to be wounds to be saved.
So killing blow is basically "one hit deals all the wounds of target model" NOT "kills without causing wounds".



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also in BRB.4 it says that "if ...a model's ... Wounds are reduced to 0 or less ... it is slain ...."
So to be "slain" your wounds characteristics need to be 0. So by "slaying" Killing Blow is dealing multiple wounds.

You're saying that if something smells like a potato it must be a potato. But potato-scented garbage can smell like potatoes.

A Killing Blow is a Killing Blow. It is nothing more, it is nothing less. Its entire rules are under KB. If another Special Rule says it removes a model on a to-hit roll of 5, that doesn't mean it is KB. It is an entirely new rule. Like all the save-or-die spells are not KB. The old save-or-die weapons are not KB. If they were, they would say KB.

You don't have to work backwards from wounds. Or from any rule. If something, like Hand of Gork or Smoke and Mirrors, moves you somewhere, you move there. You don't have to charge or do Remaining Moves or take Dangerous Terrain tests--unless it tells you to. The entirety of that rule is that rule. Just because normally you have to walk from point A to point B means nothing if it is bypassed.

If something says it is slayed or removed from play, you don't have to go, okay, now his M is 0 and S is 0 and T is 0. Nothing under KB says you do so. If it says so under another rule, that's fine. But another rule isn't KB and KB isn't bound by it.

Major snippage ensuing...

 The Shadow wrote:
you need to employ a little common sense.

You've got to be VERY careful with that. Common sense says that when a ten-ton dinosaur charges into a formation of humans, either the humans get out of the way... and disrupt their formation... or get stomped into crushed cans of tomato paste... and disrupt the formation.

But the rules do NOT reflect that.

However silly it seems to the non-KB crowd (and it is pretty silly), Killing Blow does not cause wounds. Ethereal omly references wounds. There is a disjoint there, which means that Ethereal is irrelevant to Killing Blows.

I came in thinking it was definitely RAW but probably not RAI. I'm on the fence with RAI.

KB is the grand daddy of big moves in WHFB. And I know they got an equivalent in 40K and even like Eternal Warrior to stop it. But WHFB is less pure hard counter than 40K. Everything can beat anything, even if it's not easy. Even pure Ethereal troops can lose in combat rez. I just have a hard time seeing a Necrosphinx with a S10 HKB not being able to hurt a Spirit Host. S10 HKB is like being able to cut a 100 foot Greater Daemon in half, smashing a steam tank and everyone in it flat with one swing, etc. It's a big deal.