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As per the ethereal rule, you cannot wound an ethereal creature without magic, magical weapons or effects.

And as a killing blow is triggered by a wound, you need to be able to wound something to trigger killing blow.

In the same way as if a unit of skinks in combat with the poisoned upgrade miss, they don't trigger poison.

The rules are the same. On a roll of a six to hit, poisoned wounds automatically.

And Killing blow is: On a roll of a six to wound, the model is slain outright.

Both those rules require a successful roll to hit and wound.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
As per the ethereal rule, you cannot wound an ethereal creature without magic, magical weapons or effects.

And as a killing blow is triggered by a wound, you need to be able to wound something to trigger killing blow.

In the same way as if a unit of skinks in combat with the poisoned upgrade miss, they don't trigger poison.

The rules are the same. On a roll of a six to hit, poisoned wounds automatically.

And Killing blow is: On a roll of a six to wound, the model is slain outright.

Both those rules require a successful roll to hit and wound.

Killing blow is not triggered by a wound. Read Matt's example on the previous page: you can have a situation where units only wound on a 6, but KB on a 5. KB still works, because it is from a "to wound roll" not from "a successful to wound roll of a 6".
Peasant and his alter ego seem unable to grasp this simple concept. In the same way that he can't tell the difference between actual combat and counting combat rez, somehow thinking that scoring wounds is similar to having done them.

Niteware wrote:
[Killing blow is not triggered by a wound. Read Matt's example on the previous page: you can have a situation where units only wound on a 6, but KB on a 5. KB still works, because it is from a "to wound roll" not from "a successful to wound roll of a 6".
Peasant and his alter ego seem unable to grasp this simple concept. In the same way that he can't tell the difference between actual combat and counting combat rez, somehow thinking that scoring wounds is similar to having done them.

You keep ignoring it because you cannot answer it, as it stands at this stage I have proved without a doubt I am correct.

Once again I will quote

P103 BRB

"you need to add up all of the wounds inflicted on the victim,
even those from a weapon causing multiple wounds, or by repeated Killing Blows"


That is wounds that were inflicted by killing blow.

Just tell me which particular bit you are having trouble with there and I'll find some way of being even more clear and succinct.

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:

Niteware wrote:
[Killing blow is not triggered by a wound. Read Matt's example on the previous page: you can have a situation where units only wound on a 6, but KB on a 5. KB still works, because it is from a "to wound roll" not from "a successful to wound roll of a 6".
Peasant and his alter ego seem unable to grasp this simple concept. In the same way that he can't tell the difference between actual combat and counting combat rez, somehow thinking that scoring wounds is similar to having done them.

You keep ignoring it because you cannot answer it, as it stands at this stage I have proved without a doubt I am correct.

Once again I will quote

P103 BRB

"you need to add up all of the wounds inflicted on the victim,
even those from a weapon causing multiple wounds, or by repeated Killing Blows"


That is wounds that were inflicted by killing blow.

Just tell me which particular bit you are having trouble with there and I'll find some way of being even more clear and succinct.

As the FAQ states, when counting up combat rez, KB scores wounds. This is referenced in the section that you are quoting.

Attacks that kill a model outright (made with a
Killing Blow, say - see page 72)

It is killed outright, it is not wounded. I'm guessing that you get in trouble at restaurants a lot, because when you are told to pay, you think you have actually paid?

Niteware wrote:

As the FAQ states, when counting up combat rez, KB scores wounds. This is referenced in the section that you are quoting.

The FAQ that changes the words "counts as having scored" to "score the same amount of wounds" in the subsection "wounds inflicted"

I just want to be clear, that is the part under a subsection of the BRB that has the title "Wounds Inflicted, is that correct?

Also can you make some attempt at answering the following:

If you are arguing that KB is a replacement effect that activates on a roll of 6 (which you are) then you would do nothing to any target that was ineligible for Killing Blow.

In the BRB on p72 it says

"Killing Blow is only effective against infantry,
cavalry and war beasts"

But at no point does it say "killing Blow is not in effect". I mean, a water pistol is ineffective against a tank but you can still use one to fire at one. If you can find a place in the BRB or a FAQ which contradicts this I'll be happy to read it.

So being that your Killing Blow is ineffective against Monstrous Infantry, but at no point is it not in effect, every 6 you roll to wound in combat would have to be discarded. If you were fighting a Gorebeast chariot with some St4 Grave Guard or Tomb Guard they would be incapable of wounding it on anything other than a 6 which would trigger a killing blow which would then be ineffective against the chariot. Ergo they could not wound it.

If you are arguing that it is also doing a wound in addition to the killing blow, then you are arguing that a wound happens that I am allowed an armor, regeneration or ward save against, and then a killing blow which I would be able to ward save against the effects of. Phoenix Guard would be forced to make 2 separate saves against the same wound giving them double the chance of failure.

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:

Niteware wrote:

As the FAQ states, when counting up combat rez, KB scores wounds. This is referenced in the section that you are quoting.

The FAQ that changes the words "counts as having scored" to "score the same amount of wounds" in the subsection "wounds inflicted"

I just want to be clear, that is the part under a subsection of the BRB that has the title "Wounds Inflicted, is that correct?

it didn't change "counts as scoring" to "scoring", it changed "counts as wounding" to "scores as wounding". Which makes your case weaker - score is just a marker "counts as" is ambiguous.

Niteware wrote:

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:

Niteware wrote:

As the FAQ states, when counting up combat rez, KB scores wounds. This is referenced in the section that you are quoting.

The FAQ that changes the words "counts as having scored" to "score the same amount of wounds" in the subsection "wounds inflicted"

I just want to be clear, that is the part under a subsection of the BRB that has the title "Wounds Inflicted, is that correct?

it didn't change "counts as scoring" to "scoring", it changed "counts as wounding" to "scores as wounding". Which makes your case weaker - score is just a marker "counts as" is ambiguous.

Can you answer me which subsection of the BRB these rules come under again?

Also can you answer the second part of my previous post please?

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:

Niteware wrote:

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:

Niteware wrote:

As the FAQ states, when counting up combat rez, KB scores wounds. This is referenced in the section that you are quoting.

The FAQ that changes the words "counts as having scored" to "score the same amount of wounds" in the subsection "wounds inflicted"

I just want to be clear, that is the part under a subsection of the BRB that has the title "Wounds Inflicted, is that correct?

it didn't change "counts as scoring" to "scoring", it changed "counts as wounding" to "scores as wounding". Which makes your case weaker - score is just a marker "counts as" is ambiguous.

Can you answer me which subsection of the BRB these rules come under again?

Also can you answer the second part of my previous post please?

These come from the section of the BRB called Calculate Combat Result. They combine actual wounds and things that score as wounds. This is why they "score as wounds". It is so that they can fit it into CR.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the second part of your question, which we have answered many times, you need to understand the rules. This may be tricky for you.
After you hit, you roll to wound. If you have the killing blow special rule and you roll a 6 then KB activates. If KB cannot happen due to the models type, the KB part has no effect. You then resolve the wound.
If you do not have KB, or do not roll a 6, you skip the section to do with KB.
If KB activates and the model can be effected by KB, you never get to the "resolving the wound" stage.
The whole process is a reasonably simple flow-chart / decision tree.
I would suggest you try drawing it - it may help you.

Niteware wrote:

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:

Niteware wrote:

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:

Niteware wrote:

As the FAQ states, when counting up combat rez, KB scores wounds. This is referenced in the section that you are quoting.

The FAQ that changes the words "counts as having scored" to "score the same amount of wounds" in the subsection "wounds inflicted"

I just want to be clear, that is the part under a subsection of the BRB that has the title "Wounds Inflicted, is that correct?

it didn't change "counts as scoring" to "scoring", it changed "counts as wounding" to "scores as wounding". Which makes your case weaker - score is just a marker "counts as" is ambiguous.

Can you answer me which subsection of the BRB these rules come under again?

Also can you answer the second part of my previous post please?

These come from the section of the BRB called Calculate Combat Result. They combine actual wounds and things that score as wounds. This is why they "score as wounds". It is so that they can fit it into CR.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the second part of your question, which we have answered many times, you need to understand the rules. This may be tricky for you.
After you hit, you roll to wound. If you have the killing blow special rule and you roll a 6 then KB activates. If KB cannot happen due to the models type, the KB part has no effect. You then resolve the wound.
If you do not have KB, or do not roll a 6, you skip the section to do with KB.
If KB activates and the model can be effected by KB, you never get to the "resolving the wound" stage.
The whole process is a reasonably simple flow-chart / decision tree.
I would suggest you try drawing it - it may help you.

If a bret lord without a magic weapon and the HKB vow has to wound a Destroyer, he needs 7s. Can he HKB it? No. Because he cannot physically wound it. The same applies to Ethereal. UNless it is a magical weapon, spell or magical effect, you cannot hurt it.

And guess what, in order to kill something, you need to wound it. That is how warhammer works.

And if you auto WOUND, you can't killing blow. That is pretty concrete ruling that killing blow requires a successful roll to wound to trigger.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Niteware wrote:

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:

Niteware wrote:

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:

Niteware wrote:

As the FAQ states, when counting up combat rez, KB scores wounds. This is referenced in the section that you are quoting.

The FAQ that changes the words "counts as having scored" to "score the same amount of wounds" in the subsection "wounds inflicted"

I just want to be clear, that is the part under a subsection of the BRB that has the title "Wounds Inflicted, is that correct?

it didn't change "counts as scoring" to "scoring", it changed "counts as wounding" to "scores as wounding". Which makes your case weaker - score is just a marker "counts as" is ambiguous.

Can you answer me which subsection of the BRB these rules come under again?

Also can you answer the second part of my previous post please?

These come from the section of the BRB called Calculate Combat Result. They combine actual wounds and things that score as wounds. This is why they "score as wounds". It is so that they can fit it into CR.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the second part of your question, which we have answered many times, you need to understand the rules. This may be tricky for you.
After you hit, you roll to wound. If you have the killing blow special rule and you roll a 6 then KB activates. If KB cannot happen due to the models type, the KB part has no effect. You then resolve the wound.
If you do not have KB, or do not roll a 6, you skip the section to do with KB.
If KB activates and the model can be effected by KB, you never get to the "resolving the wound" stage.
The whole process is a reasonably simple flow-chart / decision tree.
I would suggest you try drawing it - it may help you.

If a bret lord without a magic weapon and the HKB vow has to wound a Destroyer, he needs 7s. Can he HKB it? No. Because he cannot physically wound it. The same applies to Ethereal. UNless it is a magical weapon, spell or magical effect, you cannot hurt it.

And guess what, in order to kill something, you need to wound it. That is how warhammer works.

Do you have rules to back any of that up?

Incidentally, thanks to those who have pointed out that poison is the same. I used to think that 5+ poison (for example) had to hit in order to wound, but there is no rule which states that (the only exception given is for 7s)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

And guess what, in order to kill something, you need to wound it. That is how warhammer works.

This bit is definitely wrong - Instant Kills, Giants to name but two of the very clear differences. KB and HKB bveing two others.

Also having your toughness or strength reduced to zero. If that happens it doesn't matter whether you have 10W left of just 1. You are dead.

to you boomer...
Id like to thank you for your hard work.

 Peasant wrote:
to you boomer...
Id like to thank you for your hard work.

Congratulating yourself now?
I prefer your usual "Peasant" posts - they tend to be more reasoned. Indeed, on most issues I think you are right.
The "Boomer" posts are generally pretty nonsensical

 thedarkavenger wrote:


And if you auto WOUND, you can't killing blow. That is pretty concrete ruling that killing blow requires a successful roll to wound to trigger.

No, it isn't. It means that if you don't roll to wound (as you automatically wound the enemy, such as with rolling a 6 to hit with poisoned attacks) you cannot roll a 6 (or a 5 or whatever it is that this specific case of Killing Blow activates on) and so cannot activate Killing Blow.

Please refer to the previous post about Grave Guard getting Killing Blow on 5+ but needing 6s to have rolled a successful wound. Once you see that 5 or 6 come up, you jump out of normal procedure (which would have you refer to the chart comparing strength and toughness) and into the Killing Blow procedure.

As for needing 7s to wound meaning you cannot Killing Blow. Show a rule. Killing Blow has no caveats about what you would normally need to roll to wound as Poisoned Shooting Attacks does when rolling to hit.

The normal order of actions goes like this:

1) Roll to Hit dice. Move to step 2.
2) Compare Weapon Skills to determine number of hits. For each hit move to step 3.
3) Roll to wound. Move to step 4.
4) Compare Strength and Toughness to determine number of wounds caused. For each wound move to step 5.
5) Roll armour saves. Move to step 6. If nor Armour save, move to step 8.
6) Apply modifiers to required armour save. Move to step 7.
7) Compare armour save rolls with required result. For each unsuccessful roll proceed to step 8.
8) Roll Regen/Ward save. Move to step 9. If no Regen/Ward save, move to step 10.
9) Compare rolled result with required result. For each unsuccessful result move to step 10.
10) Remove casualties.

Now Killing Blow inserts a sub action within step 3 and step 8.

3a) If roll to wound=6 then move to step 8a
8a) Roll Ward Save. If unsuccessful or no ward save then proceed to step 10

Just thought of another one. With the help of I think Hawaii Matt's example. I've put the trolls on ignore, but I suppose they are still arguing that combat resolution = wounds.

If you challenge a model and KB (BRB p103) you do the wounds on the model. But it also says you can multiple KB the same model in that challenge up to a max of +5 over killing.

So if you're fighting a champ with 4 wounds and score 3 KBs that aren't blocked, you will clearly slay the model. But for purposes of combat resolution you SCORE 4 wounds, another 4 wounds, then 1 more, as it explicitly allows you to multiple KB the same character.

The model clearly doesn't have 9 wounds, yet you have scored 9 wounds for purposes of calculating combat resolution. Combat resolution != to wounds and wounding. It is clearly derived from it, among other things, but the fact you can score over what the model even possesses (by a lot) shows they aren't the same.

I mean you you could KB a unit champ who has just one wound 6 times. What are taking wounds from, his distant relatives? The knight commander got killed so hard his uncle and nephew who were vacationing in Tilea also died.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


And if you auto WOUND, you can't killing blow. That is pretty concrete ruling that killing blow requires a successful roll to wound to trigger.

No, it isn't. It means that if you don't roll to wound (as you automatically wound the enemy, such as with rolling a 6 to hit with poisoned attacks) you cannot roll a 6 (or a 5 or whatever it is that this specific case of Killing Blow activates on) and so cannot activate Killing Blow.

What are you doing every time you roll to wound?
What is the single purpose of picking up those dice to roll?
Where does it state to ignore the entire purpose of your roll?
I must be insane to keep this up.
You roll to wound. It never states instead of wounding. There is nothing that hints that the gaming process is any different other than the number of wounds inflicted.

Please refer to the previous post about Grave Guard getting Killing Blow on 5+ but needing 6s to have rolled a successful wound. Once you see that 5 or 6 come up, you jump out of normal procedure (which would have you refer to the chart comparing strength and toughness) and into the Killing Blow procedure.

As for needing 7s to wound meaning you cannot Killing Blow. Show a rule. Killing Blow has no caveats about what you would normally need to roll to wound as Poisoned Shooting Attacks does when rolling to hit.

The KB example from a magic item often change things so their relevance is limited. There is no reason to believe that KB does not cause wounds..again because it never says remove from play.

The normal order of actions goes like this:

1) Roll to Hit dice. Move to step 2.
2) Compare Weapon Skills to determine number of hits. For each hit move to step 3.
3) Roll to wound. Move to step 4.
4) Compare Strength and Toughness to determine number of wounds caused. For each wound move to step 5.
5) Roll armour saves. Move to step 6. If nor Armour save, move to step 8.
6) Apply modifiers to required armour save. Move to step 7.
7) Compare armour save rolls with required result. For each unsuccessful roll proceed to step 8.
8) Roll Regen/Ward save. Move to step 9. If no Regen/Ward save, move to step 10.
9) Compare rolled result with required result. For each unsuccessful result move to step 10.
10) Remove casualties.

Now Killing Blow inserts a sub action within step 3 and step 8.

3a) If roll to wound=6 then move to step 8a
8a) Roll Ward Save. If unsuccessful or no ward save then proceed to step 10

My rule book shows less steps..
1. roll to hit
2. roll to wound
3. saving throws
4. remove casualties

rolling to wound..i.e roll the dice, compare the chart etc are all the same part.
KB never says to deviate.
All separate processes for items and abilities give instructions to break the normal chain.
I have said many, many times that KB is the same as d3 or d6 wounds only it is all the wounds on the profile
KB has no such instruction.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

DukeRustfield wrote:
Just thought of another one. With the help of I think Hawaii Matt's example. I've put the trolls on ignore, but I suppose they are still arguing that combat resolution = wounds.

If you challenge a model and KB (BRB p103) you do the wounds on the model. But it also says you can multiple KB the same model in that challenge up to a max of +5 over killing.

So if you're fighting a champ with 4 wounds and score 3 KBs that aren't blocked, you will clearly slay the model. But for purposes of combat resolution you SCORE 4 wounds, another 4 wounds, then 1 more, as it explicitly allows you to multiple KB the same character.

The model clearly doesn't have 9 wounds, yet you have scored 9 wounds for purposes of calculating combat resolution. Combat resolution != to wounds and wounding. It is clearly derived from it, among other things, but the fact you can score over what the model even possesses (by a lot) shows they aren't the same.

You criticize the stance on wounds=wounding?
How can you justify that rolling TO WOUND has nothing to do with wounds
The problem is you are over thinking things.
You want to believe that because the ethereal rules say'...wounded by..' and KB doesn't say ' causes wounds' so KB must work on ethereal..
And then you say KB text states '.. scored 9 wounds... but that can't actually be wounds' when they use the word wounds throughout all of it.?????
So the lack of text is more meaningful then existing text????

 Peasant wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


And if you auto WOUND, you can't killing blow. That is pretty concrete ruling that killing blow requires a successful roll to wound to trigger.

No, it isn't. It means that if you don't roll to wound (as you automatically wound the enemy, such as with rolling a 6 to hit with poisoned attacks) you cannot roll a 6 (or a 5 or whatever it is that this specific case of Killing Blow activates on) and so cannot activate Killing Blow.

What are you doing every time you roll to wound?
What is the single purpose of picking up those dice to roll?
Where does it state to ignore the entire purpose of your roll?
I must be insane to keep this up.
You roll to wound. It never states instead of wounding. There is nothing that hints that the gaming process is any different other than the number of wounds inflicted.

Please refer to the previous post about Grave Guard getting Killing Blow on 5+ but needing 6s to have rolled a successful wound. Once you see that 5 or 6 come up, you jump out of normal procedure (which would have you refer to the chart comparing strength and toughness) and into the Killing Blow procedure.

As for needing 7s to wound meaning you cannot Killing Blow. Show a rule. Killing Blow has no caveats about what you would normally need to roll to wound as Poisoned Shooting Attacks does when rolling to hit.

The KB example from a magic item often change things so their relevance is limited. There is no reason to believe that KB does not cause wounds..again because it never says remove from play.

The normal order of actions goes like this:

1) Roll to Hit dice. Move to step 2.
2) Compare Weapon Skills to determine number of hits. For each hit move to step 3.
3) Roll to wound. Move to step 4.
4) Compare Strength and Toughness to determine number of wounds caused. For each wound move to step 5.
5) Roll armour saves. Move to step 6. If nor Armour save, move to step 8.
6) Apply modifiers to required armour save. Move to step 7.
7) Compare armour save rolls with required result. For each unsuccessful roll proceed to step 8.
8) Roll Regen/Ward save. Move to step 9. If no Regen/Ward save, move to step 10.
9) Compare rolled result with required result. For each unsuccessful result move to step 10.
10) Remove casualties.

Now Killing Blow inserts a sub action within step 3 and step 8.

3a) If roll to wound=6 then move to step 8a
8a) Roll Ward Save. If unsuccessful or no ward save then proceed to step 10

My rule book shows less steps..
1. roll to hit
2. roll to wound
3. saving throws
4. remove casualties

rolling to wound..i.e roll the dice, compare the chart etc are all the same part.
KB never says to deviate.
All separate processes for items and abilities give instructions to break the normal chain.
I have said many, many times that KB is the same as d3 or d6 wounds only it is all the wounds on the profile
KB has no such instruction.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

DukeRustfield wrote:
Just thought of another one. With the help of I think Hawaii Matt's example. I've put the trolls on ignore, but I suppose they are still arguing that combat resolution = wounds.

If you challenge a model and KB (BRB p103) you do the wounds on the model. But it also says you can multiple KB the same model in that challenge up to a max of +5 over killing.

So if you're fighting a champ with 4 wounds and score 3 KBs that aren't blocked, you will clearly slay the model. But for purposes of combat resolution you SCORE 4 wounds, another 4 wounds, then 1 more, as it explicitly allows you to multiple KB the same character.

The model clearly doesn't have 9 wounds, yet you have scored 9 wounds for purposes of calculating combat resolution. Combat resolution != to wounds and wounding. It is clearly derived from it, among other things, but the fact you can score over what the model even possesses (by a lot) shows they aren't the same.

You criticize the stance on wounds=wounding?
How can you justify that rolling TO WOUND has nothing to do with wounds
The problem is you are over thinking things.
You want to believe that because the ethereal rules say'...wounded by..' and KB doesn't say ' causes wounds' so KB must work on ethereal..
And then you say KB text states '.. scored 9 wounds... but that can't actually be wounds' when they use the word wounds throughout all of it.?????
So the lack of text is more meaningful then existing text????

Technically, the sole reason for rolling to wound is that you are told to roll to wound. This can lead to several outcomes, including KBs and wounds. Your insistance that wounding is the sole purpose is at the heart of your failure to grasp this issue.
Read Killing Blow. I can only assume that you haven't reread it recently. Highlight anything which says that you have to have a successful wound. That is actually written I mean, rather than "of course my assumptions are correct".
Dodging the examples where you clearly do not wound but do KB by saying "magic items make things weird" shows that your arguement is false.
Finally, scores wounds is nothing like the same as wounds. Unless you also think that thinking about paying tax is the same as paying tax, after all, they both have the word tax in them...

Niteware wrote:
These come from the section of the BRB called Calculate Combat Result.

You seem to have answered a question I haven't asked, I asked which subsection this came under.

They combine actual wounds and things that score as wounds.

Yes, and I see Killing Blow dealt with under the "Wounds Inflicted" subsection.

The other subsections are: Charge, Extra Ranks, Standard, Flank Attack,, Rear Attack, The High Ground, and Uncommon Bonuses.

Killing Blow is under the Wound Inflicted subsection, the subsection that deals with the wounds you inflicted in combat.

This is why they "score as wounds". It is so that they can fit it into CR.

I do not see the language "score as wounds" anywhere in the BRB or FAQ's. I do see it say "score the same amount of Wounds" which seems pretty unambiguous as to whether wounds have been done.

For the second part of your question, which we have answered many times, you need to understand the rules. This may be tricky for you.

Well, I'll just have to try and keep up eh?

After you hit, you roll to wound. If you have the killing blow special rule and you roll a 6 then KB activates. If KB cannot happen due to the models type, the KB part has no effect. You then resolve the wound.

OK

If you do not have KB, or do not roll a 6, you skip the section to do with KB.

All good.

If KB activates and the model can be effected by KB, you never get to the "resolving the wound" stage.

What if I ward save the killing blow, do we then resolve the wound? We'd have to wouldn't we.

The whole process is a reasonably simple flow-chart / decision tree.

Can you extend it so it is complete and works? Can you show me the process when I successfully ward save that killing blow? Both for single wound infantry and multiple wound characters who make a successful ward save against a killing blow

I would suggest you try drawing it - it may help you.

Oh I did, and it appears the picture didn't make sense, having a rather major and obvious flaw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niteware wrote:
I prefer your usual "Peasant" posts - they tend to be more reasoned. Indeed, on most issues I think you are right.
The "Boomer" posts are generally pretty nonsensical

Would you like a mod to confirm that were posting from different IP addresses located in different geographical locations? I expect they can take a look at the content of some of you posts like this as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


The normal order of actions goes like this:

1) Roll to Hit dice. Move to step 2.
2) Compare Weapon Skills to determine number of hits. For each hit move to step 3.
3) Roll to wound. Move to step 4.
4) Compare Strength and Toughness to determine number of wounds caused. For each wound move to step 5.
5) Roll armour saves. Move to step 6. If nor Armour save, move to step 8.
6) Apply modifiers to required armour save. Move to step 7.
7) Compare armour save rolls with required result. For each unsuccessful roll proceed to step 8.
8) Roll Regen/Ward save. Move to step 9. If no Regen/Ward save, move to step 10.
9) Compare rolled result with required result. For each unsuccessful result move to step 10.
10) Remove casualties.

OK

Now Killing Blow inserts a sub action within step 3 and step 8.
3a) If roll to wound=6 then move to step 8a
8a) Roll Ward Save. If unsuccessful or no ward save then proceed to step 10

OK so when I am attacking a MI and I get to stage 3a I have killing blow on the attack and I roll a 6.

Now remember that it at no point states in the BRB or any FAQ that killing blow is not in effect when fighting MI or MC. What the BRB says is "Killing Blow is only effective against infantry,
cavalry and war beasts", at no point does it say "killing blow is not in effect".

If it does say that somewhere that I am unaware of, then please quote me the page reference. You can do it any time I will be listening and I will go right where you tell me and read this information.

Now, being that the killing blow is not effective against MI in this scenario I would skip to stage 8a having taken zero wounds and you will have lost the original wound you have done. If I am wrong in this please show me exactly where and quote me a page reference for any rule that contradicts me.

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:

Niteware wrote:
These come from the section of the BRB called Calculate Combat Result.

You seem to have answered a question I haven't asked, I asked which subsection this came under.

They combine actual wounds and things that score as wounds.

Yes, and I see Killing Blow dealt with under the "Wounds Inflicted" subsection.

The other subsections are: Charge, Extra Ranks, Standard, Flank Attack,, Rear Attack, The High Ground, and Uncommon Bonuses.

Killing Blow is under the Wound Inflicted subsection, the subsection that deals with the wounds you inflicted in combat.

This is why they "score as wounds". It is so that they can fit it into CR.

I do not see the language "score as wounds" anywhere in the BRB or FAQ's. I do see it say "score the same amount of Wounds" which seems pretty unambiguous as to whether wounds have been done.

For the second part of your question, which we have answered many times, you need to understand the rules. This may be tricky for you.

Well, I'll just have to try and keep up eh?

After you hit, you roll to wound. If you have the killing blow special rule and you roll a 6 then KB activates. If KB cannot happen due to the models type, the KB part has no effect. You then resolve the wound.

OK

If you do not have KB, or do not roll a 6, you skip the section to do with KB.

All good.

If KB activates and the model can be effected by KB, you never get to the "resolving the wound" stage.

What if I ward save the killing blow, do we then resolve the wound? We'd have to wouldn't we.

The whole process is a reasonably simple flow-chart / decision tree.

Can you extend it so it is complete and works? Can you show me the process when I successfully ward save that killing blow? Both for single wound infantry and multiple wound characters who make a successful ward save against a killing blow

I would suggest you try drawing it - it may help you.

Oh I did, and it appears the picture didn't make sense, having a rather major and obvious flaw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niteware wrote:
I prefer your usual "Peasant" posts - they tend to be more reasoned. Indeed, on most issues I think you are right.
The "Boomer" posts are generally pretty nonsensical

Would you like a mod to confirm that were posting from different IP addresses located in different geographical locations? I expect they can take a look at the content of some of you posts like this as well.

Scoe the same number of wounds is explicitly different from does the same number of wounds. They are dealt with under the same subsection because GW helpfully gave us a way of working out how to fit KB into CR. As they did with all the instant kills, which also come in to CR under the wounds subsection.
What do you do if you ward save KB? Look at your flow chart. You have left the normal sequence of wounding and fully resolved the KB rule. Ot course you don't go back and resolve a wound.
You will bring up MI and MC again, pretending that the two things are similar. Which they clearly are not - class type prevents KB having an effect, Ward Saves are part of the KB process.
As to IP addresses, Peasant stared the baseless "alter ego" nonsense, I figured we may as well have it on both sides. Especially since the only person arguing on his side (until dark started) had less than 20 posts...

DukeRustfield wrote:
Just thought of another one. With the help of I think Hawaii Matt's example. I've put the trolls on ignore, but I suppose they are still arguing that combat resolution = wounds.

Unable to answer questions? Losing an argument? Why not try sticking your fingers in you ears and going "la la la la la not listening"? It's totally mature and doesn't make you look like a childish at all!

If you challenge a model and KB (BRB p103) you do the wounds on the model. But it also says you can multiple KB the same model in that challenge up to a max of +5 over killing..

Yes and it also says you can do multiple d3 and d6 wounds, did you miss that? Because it makes everything you've written below totally nonsensical when we have an example of something that undisputedly does wounds listed as comparable to something you are claiming does no wounds and are instructed to calculate in effectively the same manner.

So if you're fighting a champ with 4 wounds and score 3 KBs that aren't blocked, you will clearly slay the model. But for purposes of combat resolution you SCORE 4 wounds, another 4 wounds, then 1 more, as it explicitly allows you to multiple KB the same character.

As below, did you miss the part that says "from a weapon causing multiple wounds"?

The model clearly doesn't have 9 wounds, yet you have scored 9 wounds for purposes of calculating combat resolution. Combat resolution != to wounds and wounding. It is clearly derived from it, among other things, but the fact you can score over what the model even possesses (by a lot) shows they aren't the same..

Once again, are you claiming that weapons that do d3 or d6 wounds, do not do wounds?

I mean you you could KB a unit champ who has just one wound 6 times. What are taking wounds from, his distant relatives? The knight commander got killed so hard his uncle and nephew who were vacationing in Tilea also died.

Did you miss the part where it says

QUOTE BRB p103

"This time you need to add
up all of the wounds inflicted on the victim,
even those from a weapon causing multiple
wounds, or by repeated Killing Blows "

Allow me to emphasize what you are missing again

"This time you need to add
up all of the wounds inflicted on the victim,
even those from a weapon causing multiple
wounds, or by repeated Killing Blows "

Can you see that now? Add up all the wounds inflicted by killing blow. It tells you right there that killing blow inflicts wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niteware wrote:
Scoe the same number of wounds is explicitly different from does the same number of wounds.

Is it? Doesn't sound like it is to me. It looks to me that it is under a title heading of "Wounds Inflicted" an actual subheading of the BRB and area that deals with wounds that were inflicted in combat.

But maybe I am missing how something that happens on the roll to wound, is dealt with under wounds inflicted, is added up as wounds and does "damage" (p72) which is defined under wounds...

BRB p3

WOUNDS (W)
This shows how much damage a creature can
take before it dies or is so badly hurt that it
can't fight any more

isn't a wound. Maybe.

They are dealt with under the same subsection because GW helpfully gave us a way of working out how to fit KB into CR. As they did with all the instant kills, which also come in to CR under the wounds subsection.

Can you provide me with examples of "all the instant kills" that are added up under the "Wounds Inflicted"?

What do you do if you ward save KB? Look at your flow chart. You have left the normal sequence of wounding and fully resolved the KB rule. Ot course you don't go back and resolve a wound.

Why? Can you provide a page reference that tells you to discount the wound? If it works how you say it works I see no reason why you would lose a successful wound. But if you can provide a page reference for it I'll see it.

You will bring up MI and MC again, pretending that the two things are similar. Which they clearly are not - class type prevents KB having an effect, Ward Saves are part of the KB process.

Yes I will keep bringing it up. I'll keep bringing it up until you can provide me with a page reference and rules which shows that Killing Blow turns off when fighting these targets. If you are going to say something works in a certain way then you have to except ALL the implications of that. Either you lose a wound, and do nothing to targets it's ineffective against, or that we have another wound to be accounted for in the process of combat.

As to IP addresses, Peasant stared the baseless "alter ego" nonsense, I figured we may as well have it on both sides. Especially since the only person arguing on his side (until dark started) had less than 20 posts...

Plenty of people have popped in as well and made the one post just saying "killing blow doesn't work on ethereal. Simply put for most people this is such a non issue and it's so obvious how it works they probably despair. Personally I am only here because I am astounded that something so simple can be so easily over-complicated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peasant wrote:
to you boomer...
Id like to thank you for your hard work.

Thank you very much and likewise.

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:
Just thought of another one. With the help of I think Hawaii Matt's example. I've put the trolls on ignore, but I suppose they are still arguing that combat resolution = wounds.

Unable to answer questions? Losing an argument? Why not try sticking your fingers in you ears and going "la la la la la not listening"? It's totally mature and doesn't make you look like a childish at all!

If you challenge a model and KB (BRB p103) you do the wounds on the model. But it also says you can multiple KB the same model in that challenge up to a max of +5 over killing..

Yes and it also says you can do multiple d3 and d6 wounds, did you miss that? Because it makes everything you've written below totally nonsensical when we have an example of something that undisputedly does wounds listed as comparable to something you are claiming does no wounds and are instructed to calculate in effectively the same manner.

So if you're fighting a champ with 4 wounds and score 3 KBs that aren't blocked, you will clearly slay the model. But for purposes of combat resolution you SCORE 4 wounds, another 4 wounds, then 1 more, as it explicitly allows you to multiple KB the same character.

As below, did you miss the part that says "from a weapon causing multiple wounds"?

The model clearly doesn't have 9 wounds, yet you have scored 9 wounds for purposes of calculating combat resolution. Combat resolution != to wounds and wounding. It is clearly derived from it, among other things, but the fact you can score over what the model even possesses (by a lot) shows they aren't the same..

Once again, are you claiming that weapons that do d3 or d6 wounds, do not do wounds?

I mean you you could KB a unit champ who has just one wound 6 times. What are taking wounds from, his distant relatives? The knight commander got killed so hard his uncle and nephew who were vacationing in Tilea also died.

Did you miss the part where it says

QUOTE BRB p103

"This time you need to add
up all of the wounds inflicted on the victim,
even those from a weapon causing multiple
wounds, or by repeated Killing Blows "

Allow me to emphasize what you are missing again

"This time you need to add
up all of the wounds inflicted on the victim,
even those from a weapon causing multiple
wounds, or by repeated Killing Blows "

Can you see that now? Add up all the wounds inflicted by killing blow. It tells you right there that killing blow inflicts wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niteware wrote:
Scoe the same number of wounds is explicitly different from does the same number of wounds.

Is it? Doesn't sound like it is to me. It looks to me that it is under a title heading of "Wounds Inflicted" an actual subheading of the BRB and area that deals with wounds that were inflicted in combat.

But maybe I am missing how something that happens on the roll to wound, is dealt with under wounds inflicted, is added up as wounds and does "damage" (p72) which is defined under wounds...

BRB p3

WOUNDS (W)
This shows how much damage a creature can
take before it dies or is so badly hurt that it
can't fight any more

isn't a wound. Maybe.

They are dealt with under the same subsection because GW helpfully gave us a way of working out how to fit KB into CR. As they did with all the instant kills, which also come in to CR under the wounds subsection.

Can you provide me with examples of "all the instant kills" that are added up under the "Wounds Inflicted"?

What do you do if you ward save KB? Look at your flow chart. You have left the normal sequence of wounding and fully resolved the KB rule. Ot course you don't go back and resolve a wound.

Why? Can you provide a page reference that tells you to discount the wound? If it works how you say it works I see no reason why you would lose a successful wound. But if you can provide a page reference for it I'll see it.

You will bring up MI and MC again, pretending that the two things are similar. Which they clearly are not - class type prevents KB having an effect, Ward Saves are part of the KB process.

Yes I will keep bringing it up. I'll keep bringing it up until you can provide me with a page reference and rules which shows that Killing Blow turns off when fighting these targets. If you are going to say something works in a certain way then you have to except ALL the implications of that. Either you lose a wound, and do nothing to targets it's ineffective against, or that we have another wound to be accounted for in the process of combat.

As to IP addresses, Peasant stared the baseless "alter ego" nonsense, I figured we may as well have it on both sides. Especially since the only person arguing on his side (until dark started) had less than 20 posts...

Plenty of people have popped in as well and made the one post just saying "killing blow doesn't work on ethereal. Simply put for most people this is such a non issue and it's so obvious how it works they probably despair. Personally I am only here because I am astounded that something so simple can be so easily over-complicated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peasant wrote:
to you boomer...
Id like to thank you for your hard work.

Thank you very much and likewise.

You are still avoiding a) answering any questions and b) giving any section which states that KB requires a successful wound.
Give an answer to Matt's example (s4, t6, so can only wound on 6s, 5+ KB, rolls of 5 slay but would not wound), or concede that your argument is based on logical fallacy and assumptions.

DukeRustfield wrote:
I mean you you could KB a unit champ who has just one wound 6 times. What are taking wounds from, his distant relatives? The knight commander got killed so hard his uncle and nephew who were vacationing in Tilea also died.

I read that Bruce Lee once kicked a person so hard a third party's arm was broken.
Maybe it is like that.



(Found it! http://www.cracked.com/article_20589_6-amazing-performances-by-actors-who-werent-acting-part-2.html)

Niteware wrote:
You are still avoiding a) answering any questions and b) giving any section which states that KB requires a successful wound.
Give an answer to Matt's example (s4, t6, so can only wound on 6s, 5+ KB, rolls of 5 slay but would not wound), or concede that your argument is based on logical fallacy and assumptions.

You know, some might say that demanding answers off another person when you've provided none to those posed of you is a little arrogant and hypocritical. Especially when yours were asked far later and.. .you know not really asked of me. But, nevertheless...

I don't need to provide a section where it says KB requires a successful wound. All I need to prove is that Killing Blow is a wound and one from a non magical source. Killing blow is the damage conditions of that wound as I have shown with quoted examples and backed up evidence. I've also shown how trying to make it work in any other way breaks its function. Being that it is a wound and Ethereal cannot be wounded from a non magical source, that is done and dusted.

Remember I have quoted page examples here that say Killing Blow inflicts wounds. That's really no longer up for debate.

As for the example (which doesn't actually relate to ethereal) I could just say to you "Can you give me a section where it says Killing Blow doesn't require a successful wound?" I see the section where it says "regardless of the number of wounds on the victims profile" but I don't see it say "regardless of the toughness on the victims profile".

The process of this game is that wounds need to be successful to apply their damage effects. At no point does it say that Killing Blow doesn't require a successful wound or that it bypasses the Str vs T check. The precedent in this game is wounds need to pass their success conditions to cause damage. If you can't prove one way or the other, the sensible way to proceed would be via looking at precedent which is: wounds need to be successful to cause damage.

We also have the precedent for poisoned attacks in that if you cannot hit on a 6 you cannot poison. That is a precedent for the conditions for processing of a roll on the table overriding and superseding those for poison, and poisoned attacks is the only analogous mechanic to KB we have.

It's not me who has to find a section of the BRB that says KB "requires a successful wound" as much it is for you to find a section that says something like "KB wounds regardless of the victims toughness".

Remember, Killing Blow has been shown to be a damage effect on the wound . If you play it as a replacement effect you break it for models it is ineffective against. If you play it as an additional effect it leads to ridiculous situations where you are making multiple saves for the same wound. To get the damage effect of any wound, that wound has to be successful.

Now, do I personally think it adds the caveat "wounds regardless of toughness"? Yes, that would seem sensible to me. However, I cannot support it with any rule.... and even if I could, it still wouldn't have any bearing on the ethereal issue where toughness is not your problem.

Now, like I said, it shouldn't be you who's asking me for "a section which states killing blow requires a successful wound", but you asking yourself where it says "Killing Blow doesn't require a successful wound", as all other damage effects which work off the to wound roll require a successful wound.

And just one last time so you are not unclear of what I am saying: This would still have no bearing on ethereal as your problem isn't toughness.

P.S. You know, the last thing I personally would want to do is highlight an issue that essentially nerfs a TK spell. If that was your intention, then well done.

P.P.S. Sorry but I must have been half asleep not to fall off my chair at this...

Niteware wrote:
You are still avoiding a) answering any questions

I've consistently answered all your questions, in detail and with citations and page references. I haven't at any point avoided answering any of your questions. The suggestion that I have somehow been ducking questions and not providing answers is hilariously ironic.

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:
Remember I have quoted page examples here that say Killing Blow inflicts wounds [for the purposes of calculating Combat Resolution and nothing else]. That's really no longer up for debate.

Fixed.

 kirsanth wrote:

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:
Remember I have quoted page examples here that say Killing Blow inflicts wounds [for the purposes of calculating Combat Resolution and nothing else]. That's really no longer up for debate.

Fixed.

BRB Section "Challenges" p103 subsection "Overkill"

Overkill
If one model slays the other, then any excess
wounds they inflicted above and beyond those
needed to slay the opponent, up to a maximum
of +5, are counted towards their side's total
number of wounds for close combat resolution.
More on this bonus can be found on page 53.
Note that this is an exception to the rule stating
that a model can only suffer as many wounds as
it has on its profile. This time you need to add
up all of the wounds inflicted on the victim,
even those from a weapon causing multiple
wounds, or by repeated Killing Blows

If you wish to continue making yourself look silly and like you don't have the good manners to admit you were wrong, then please by all means carry on.

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:

Niteware wrote:
You are still avoiding a) answering any questions and b) giving any section which states that KB requires a successful wound.
Give an answer to Matt's example (s4, t6, so can only wound on 6s, 5+ KB, rolls of 5 slay but would not wound), or concede that your argument is based on logical fallacy and assumptions.

You know, some might say that demanding answers off another person when you've provided none to those posed of you is a little arrogant and hypocritical. Especially when yours were asked far later and.. .you know not really asked of me. But, nevertheless...

I don't need to provide a section where it says KB requires a successful wound. All I need to prove is that Killing Blow is a wound and one from a non magical source. Killing blow is the damage conditions of that wound as I have shown with quoted examples and backed up evidence. I've also shown how trying to make it work in any other way breaks its function. Being that it is a wound and Ethereal cannot be wounded from a non magical source, that is done and dusted.

Remember I have quoted page examples here that say Killing Blow inflicts wounds. That's really no longer up for debate.

As for the example (which doesn't actually relate to ethereal) I could just say to you "Can you give me a section where it says Killing Blow doesn't require a successful wound?" I see the section where it says "regardless of the number of wounds on the victims profile" but I don't see it say "regardless of the toughness on the victims profile".

The process of this game is that wounds need to be successful to apply their damage effects. At no point does it say that Killing Blow doesn't require a successful wound or that it bypasses the Str vs T check. The precedent in this game is wounds need to pass their success conditions to cause damage. If you can't prove one way or the other, the sensible way to proceed would be via looking at precedent which is: wounds need to be successful to cause damage.

We also have the precedent for poisoned attacks in that if you cannot hit on a 6 you cannot poison. That is a precedent for the conditions for processing of a roll on the table overriding and superseding those for poison, and poisoned attacks is the only analogous mechanic to KB we have.

It's not me who has to find a section of the BRB that says KB "requires a successful wound" as much it is for you to find a section that says something like "KB wounds regardless of the victims toughness".

Remember, Killing Blow has been shown to be a damage effect on the wound . If you play it as a replacement effect you break it for models it is ineffective against. If you play it as an additional effect it leads to ridiculous situations where you are making multiple saves for the same wound. To get the damage effect of any wound, that wound has to be successful.

Now, do I personally think it adds the caveat "wounds regardless of toughness"? Yes, that would seem sensible to me. However, I cannot support it with any rule.... and even if I could, it still wouldn't have any bearing on the ethereal issue where toughness is not your problem.

Now, like I said, it shouldn't be you who's asking me for "a section which states killing blow requires a successful wound", but you asking yourself where it says "Killing Blow doesn't require a successful wound", as all other damage effects which work off the to wound roll require a successful wound.

And just one last time so you are not unclear of what I am saying: This would still have no bearing on ethereal as your problem isn't toughness.

P.S. You know, the last thing I personally would want to do is highlight an issue that essentially nerfs a TK spell. If that was your intention, then well done.

P.P.S. Sorry but I must have been half asleep not to fall off my chair at this...

Niteware wrote:
You are still avoiding a) answering any questions

I've consistently answered all your questions, in detail and with citations and page references. I haven't at any point avoided answering any of your questions. The suggestion that I have somehow been ducking questions and not providing answers is hilariously ironic.

I agree that in avoiding answering questions but demanding answers to others, you have been arrogant.
Again, you did not answer the question; you said that you did not need to.
Killing Blow is very clear about the way in which it is used. On a "to wound" roll of a 6, the model is slain. Not on a succesful roll. Not on a "to wound" roll, which had a chance of working, of a 6.

That is why it is you who needs to give the BRB section. The rule, as it is Written, does not care if the to wound roll is otherwise successful.

This is also why T does not matter - it is not dependent on a successful wound.

Niteware wrote:

I agree that in avoiding answering questions but demanding answers to others, you have been arrogant..

Which are these questions that I have avoided answering? Please show me them and I will answer them, as I have already made clear.

At the moment it just seems like you are being facetious and essentially saying "I know I am but what are you?"

Again, you did not answer the question; you said that you did not need to.

No I did answer the question. I answered your question and then told you why such a question wasn't relevant to the discussion. You make this accusation a fair bit, do you know how many actual questions you've asked? Over the last couple of pages one rhetorical and one sarcastic one at peasant intimating were the same person. However, if there is a question I have failed to address tell me what it is and where it was posted.

One more time for the cheap seats... If you have a relevant question you feel I haven't answered, ask it here now phrased as a question and I will answer it.

Killing Blow is very clear about the way in which it is used. On a "to wound" roll of a 6, the model is slain. Not on a succesful roll. Not on a "to wound" roll, which had a chance of working, of a 6.

That is why it is you who needs to give the BRB section. The rule, as it is Written, does not care if the to wound roll is otherwise successful.

This is also why T does not matter - it is not dependent on a successful wound.

Why are we discussing this here? I have already said I find that issue full of ambiguity and poorly written. This is the thread relating to issues of Ethereal and Killing Blow. Not toughness values and Killing Blow. If you want to start a thread on that feel free... I wont be joining in because I've looked at it and it can't really be proven either way for certain.

RAI? I totally think Killing Blow should wound irrespective of Toughness and Strength values.

We've established that Killing blow is an attack that does/inflicts/causes wounds, Ethereal cannot be wounded except by magic attacks. If your Killing Blow is not from a magical source you cannot wound an Ethereal model as they are immune to non magical wounds.

I'm a slow learner, but it was clear they won't ever change their opinion. If the entire staff of GW came to this site, updated the FAQ, and gave us updated copies of the BRB they would still disagree. In the bottom right of their post you can choose to Ignore. There's a lot of good debates on dakka, don't get hung up on the bad ones.

That would make my work day that much slower, DukeRustfield.

Correcting silly errors is part of my job, so things like this are entirely professional development.

I've been watching this for quite a while, and man-oh-man has it gotten crazy in here! I'd like to make two little comments:

1. I am sure that at least 90, if not 100%, of the people arguing that Killing Blow can affect Ethereal models are not arguing so because they hope to use such a rule against their opponents and decimate all who stand before them.
This is a rules debate, an entertaining thought-exercise that's led to some interesting ideas and made me think about the game from a different angle. That is the purpose of a thread like this, right?
Just so those people aren't being condemned as sneaky, greasy rules-lawyers.

2. I would like to make a general suggestion in regards to the art of persuasion: keep your reply simple and short. If it takes too long to read, the chance for misunderstanding will increase, and you'll have to backtrack, or get caught in a loop.
Pick the first aspect of the argument you don't agree with, and state why you believe it is incorrect. Once you've accomplished that, move on to the next.

3. The idea of especially skilled warriors laying low ghosts and other such disquiet spirits is laughably silly.
...but it makes me wonder:
Killing Blow does not cause wounds. So, when you roll a 6 to wound, and Killing Blow is triggered...is there anything that says it replaces the standard wound, or is it merely added on?
Example: an Executioner rolls a 6 to wound versus a High Elf Mage with a 4+ Ward. The Mage makes his Ward save against the Killing Blow...but does he also make a Ward save against the standard wound caused?
Obviously not what's supposed to happen, but since we're knee-deep in this stuff anyway, I thought I'd ask.